Are all doctors foreign born, or is it just me?

I feel it is due to a number of factors: one is the deplorable state of US schools that turn out barely literate students that cannot handle the rigorous courses leading to medical degrees. Then there is the politically-correct acid test prospective med school candidates go through- one that turns away highly intelligent and motivated students willing to go into difficult specialties like neurosurgery and complex orthopedic surgery in favor of lesser intelligences who want to coast in "soft specialties" like gynecology and basic-care pediatrics but give all the right answers to interviewers more concerned with "social issues" than actual medicine. Hospitals go for the most qualified because their bottom line rests on the competency of physicians. They don't care what your ideology is, only that you don't cost them in malpractice suits. Thus, they hire the people with the highest scores, the best recommendations from clinical practice, and people qualified in specialties they need. Foreign-born doctors are extremely motivated, accustomed to hard work and striving for personal excellence. They have the educational background to tackle specialties American students won't touch. There is such a shortage of neurosurgeons and surgeons trained in complex hand surgeries that lives are being lost and people left crippled because the right doctor cannot be found. I had a relative suffer a brain hemorrhage and the hospital launched a search over three states to find a surgeon. This individual had to be transported 600 miles to a neurosurgeon. This person was a resident of a major East Coast USA city, not some remote corner of the nation. There is also a massive shortage of paramedics to staff ambulances because people cannot do the high-school level math required. Until Americans regain respect for scholarship and hard work, our medical system will necessarily have to get people wherever they can find them.

reply to post by MarkJS


Perhaps it's a bit different here, I'm at the capitol of Florida, and here it seems most of the regular physicians aren't foreign, though mine has always been a bit new age. She's encouraged meditation, Tai Chi and herbal medicine over pills and whatnot. Reccomended a few books, she recently opened her own holistic medical practice but she's American born and raised. However it does seem that almost every single one of the chiropractors here are from India, but they're rather good at what they do. I have however noticed that most of the surgeons and specialists here however are either from India or Thailand. I do know that Thailand has a damn good medical school, perhaps because they're less morally constrained.

reply to post by rourke


I would have to agree that much of the American school system is deplorable and produces substandard educationally gifted people. A person only knows what they are taught... especially when they are kids. But I don't think that the entire country has sunk that low.... And even if it did, isn't that what pre-med is for? The other reasons you cite - about political correctness, may be valid:

Then there is the politically-correct acid test prospective med school candidates go through- one that turns away highly intelligent and motivated students willing to go into difficult specialties like neurosurgery and complex orthopedic surgery in favor of lesser intelligences who want to coast in "soft specialties" like gynecology and basic-care pediatrics but give all the right answers to interviewers more concerned with "social issues" than actual medicine.

That's interesting... maybe others can chime in on that one.

Originally posted by MarkJS

I smell a conspiracy.

Explain the "conspiracy" please.

I picked my doctor out of the insurance book because he had the whitest sounding name I could find (William Smith) and he was an old fashioned GP and the best doctor I ever had but he was old (retired three years ago) and he would fit you in that afternoon if you needed to be seen. He didn't 'push' pills but if you needed somthing he would prescribe it. If it was something you were doing that was aggrivating or causing it he would tell you how to change lifestyle.
He knew your name and your active hobbies and would ask about them.
He and his nurse wife actually 'liked' his patients. Find that in a Kaiser or Kiaser equavalent system where the members are treated like sheep and cattle on an factory farm. (at age 20 patients need yearly exam A, at 25 yearly exam B is added to A 30 every patient needs A,B &C, and so on.


Enjoy your HMO Health plan.

www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by GLaDOS

Originally posted by MarkJS

Originally posted by GLaDOS
What does their skin color/heritage matter...

I always heard that it was d*mn hard to get into medical school... but then all these outside-the-US-born foreigners got in... Seems fishy.... almost like a conspiracy.

edit on 11/4/2012 by MarkJS because: (no reason given)

As I said in my original post, the US has a poor education standard compared to some other countries, that's why the foreigners get in first.

I think you are completely correct with regard to education. I have some friends whose daughter started medical school last fall, their son just got accepted to the same school for next fall. They both had the advantage of very smart parents.

My daughter is in the process of skipping up a grade at school and has always said she wants to go into medicine (I'm not, and not sure where the idea came from). She normally associates with neighborhood kids a bit older than her and is usually quite a bit more mature than them and seems to have a bit of difficulty relating to them because of it.

I am continuously struck by the stupidity of some of these kids. We spend $10 on remedial teaching for every $1 we spend on gifted education so getting into gifted programs is not easy. My daughter is in the gifted program but our neighbor girl dropped out of it, her mother is on disability (morbidly obese) and she seems content to follow suit.

Half of these kids can't string together a coherent sentence and I know first hand a lot of the foreign born students speak better English than kids born and raised here. My daughter has been tutoring a neighbor girl that is 3 years older than her in math and algebra (she has only touched it in school as a 4th grader) AND this girl is on the Honor Roll (how I have no idea). I can't imagine being on the 7th grade "honor roll" and having a 4th grader teaching you. I can't picture an advanced degree for her but waitress or convenience store clerk are possible. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with those jobs and there are various reasons people have for working them.

It just seems that most of the kids we are educating are educated just enough for a fairly menial job because of lazy parents. My daughter started school with kids (not foreign born) who did not know the alphabet or any math. I think IF you are willing to do nothing and teach your kids nothing you put your kids at a decided disadvantage and a lot of them will graduate only being qualified to ask "do you want fries with that?". The foreign born kids, or kids with foreign born parents are often more willing to work towards a goal of success and a better life for their kids. We on the other hand are often willing to sit and watch "Biggest Loser" or whatever and kill time knowing the government will take care of things if we blow it off, not exactly a recipe for success..

reply to post by MarkJS

Originally posted by ReadAwhile

Originally posted by MarkJS

I smell a conspiracy.

Explain the "conspiracy" please.

just thinking out loud here... but if by chance... the entire country has sunk that low.... every state. I would have to conclude that this massive failure would have to be caused by something that links to all of them... What is that Fed'l Gubmnt agency that has their fingers in public education? Could be a, or the problem. The creation of this agency seemed like a good idea at the time.... Maybe now... not such a good idea(?)

I wonder if there's a(n accurate) chart that shows which states turn out the most doctors... and to what degree the Fed Agency is involved in the education of that state's public schools. Something like that.

Its simple, Most of the other countries (Europe, China, India - i picked these because most of them are from here) have very high education standards.

In western countries education is an option after high school, we even have people saying how going to school don't make much difference, sadly, in other countries, education is primary and your values are based on it, not having a education is frowned upon(im from such culture, already got lot of "talk" for getting my BSc a yr later than my little sister), while western students(me including, 50%~)18-25yrs hit up clubs and whatnot, and spend a lot of time with social activities, students of other countries are usually studying most of their time to compete for a spot in classrooms.

The amount of money you get payed for being a doctor in those countries are low (due to high competition, lot of doctors) so they come to countries like US/EUROPE where the competition is lower and the pay is high.

Originally posted by ReadAwhile

Originally posted by MarkJS

I smell a conspiracy.

Explain the "conspiracy" please.

Above. And maybe there are others. I don't know... That is the point of this thread. Hopefully other key ATS members will share with us... if there are other conspiracies lurking out there.

I'm trying to figure out how you can tell where someone is born. Unless you've asked them. You cannot tell from their ethnic background or the colour of their skin, the world is too globalized for that

That said, and I'm going to sound extremely racist here, especially since I'm a white woman, but I almost prefer Asian doctors, because they do more of a whole body diagnosis, they seem to care more about the mind-body connection, and they're more willing to listen. They care about your mental state, because they know it effects our physical state.
They also seem more open to combining alternative medicine with conventional medicine.

I know it's supposed to be bad to stereotype, but if it rings true more often than not......
I think it might be because their culture goes back further than ours, and medicine and well being has always been a strong part of the culture.

Maybe it's because 'foreign' people work a lot harder and in general are more able to become doctors. It's the same as many Brits. They moan that there are no jobs yet there are Eastern europeans coming to England every week getting jobs in agriculture, catering, cleaning etc... basically all the jobs we think we are above. Americans as a whole are too focussed on fame and celebrity to give a damn about real academia.

Many cultures, especially the 'poorer' ones, see being a doctor as the ultimate symbol of success and achievement and is their goal in life. Many Westerners focus purely on the money and don't want to have to work for it. It is one of the biggest problems in our modern society.

reply to post by snowspirit

I'm trying to figure out how you can tell where someone is born. Unless you've asked them

Some people may disagree... I think the accent when speaking english is a dead giveaway.

Originally posted by MarkJS
reply to post by snowspirit

 

I'm trying to figure out how you can tell where someone is born. Unless you've asked them

Some people may disagree... I think the accent when speaking english is a dead giveaway.

I won't disagree there, you're right. If they're in the US or Canada from a very early age, the accent doesn't develop.

I blame the educational systems.

In Canada, I've heard that they restrict the number of medical students, and then we end up with doctor shortages. We've lost doctors to the US, because certain types of doctors get paid better down there. Then we have to bring in immigrants to fill the shortages.
I've generally had good luck with the foreign doctors, which is good.

reply to post by snowspirit


Why do they restrict medical students? That makes no sense whatsoever.

reply to post by disgustingfatbody


I think it's because it's government run health care. I'm not sure exactly how it works, but I think Canada's government was thinking if there are too many doctors, it will cost the system too much money. Some of our taxes go towards paying for healthcare.
Now we have shortages, because they don't have to stay in Canada after they train, so they go where the money is - the US.

www.fraserinstitute.org...

VANCOUVER, BC—Canada’s physician shortage will grow worse in coming years because of ill-conceived policies on physician supply, says a new article published by the Fraser Institute, Canada’s leading public policy think-tank.

“Canada’s physician shortage is a consequence of governments endorsing policies that restricted physician training,” says Nadeem Esmail, Fraser Institute senior fellow and author of Canada’s Physician Supply, which appears in the latest issue of Fraser Forum, the Institute’s bi-monthly magazine.

2 Reasons...

1. Damn hard to afford college tuition in this country, BUT every other country KNOWS a good education is the foundation for a successful society so they offer higher learning much cheap or for free! We would rather make a quick buck, than educate our future!

2. Americans are more lazy and being stupid than ever before.

reply to post by MarkJS


Its cheaper to go to school overseas but in the U.S. doctors get paid more, simple. Its always about the money. Unless you`ve got rich parent who can pay your way through med school or you join the military theres no way one could pay their own way to becoming a doctor. Medical assistant maybe but not the kind of doctors you`re refering to. I dont mind european doctors, they seem more generous with the good stuff when you`re hurting rather than some others which treat you like cattle.

Cant give to many details or i`ll be a racist for say the truth

I highly doubt there's any conspiracy regarding foreign-born doctors. If anything, I'd wager apathy as a cause for our fellow Yanks not giving a crap about the medical welfare of others.
I've seen many doctors of many types throughout my life thus far, and not once have I ever had a decent American-born doctor. They've had the worst manners, the worst ways of talking to patients, didn't spend hardly any time with you to go over results, instructions, etc. The two best doctors I've ever had were a Honduran OB/GYN who did everything in his power to make you feel like a friend & that he truly cared, and an Iranian FP/GP who did exactly the same--did EVERYTHING he could to make you feel like you were a true friend to him & made certain you knew you & your health mattered. Both of them never rushed through appointments, they never spoke unkindly or disregarded anything you said/asked, they took the time to explain test results & medical instructions patiently & slowly, and most importantly, they never made us feel like we were burdensome. The American doctors never made it anywhere close to those 2 foreign guys' level of caring. Their attitudes & approaches are what a lot of American doctors need to figure out how to implement. Maybe the patient wouldn't be such a pushy a-hole if the doctor wasn't such a cold blow-hard.

Here's some light on the 'dumb American' conspiracy, or plan, by a whistle-blower.
ATS Thread - link of Charlotte Iserbyt's interview

... if it is true, it looks like my hunch was right about the Fed. Education agency.

Originally posted by THE_PROFESSIONAL
I will tell you exactly what is going on here. Back in the 60's there were more residency positions than applicants so they took in foreign docs. Nowadays there are a lot more applicants than residency positions so the foreign graduates are having a harder time applying. The foreign grads for consideration to residency training need to have USMLE step 1, USMLE step 2, and USMLE step 3 with stellar scores and need to be ECFMG certified. A lot of residency training program directors take these foreign grads on H1b visas over US students because a lot of US students do not go into primary care. The US graduates go specialties and are not interested in primary care.

The AAMC (American medical colleges association) is opening up more medical school positions in the upcoming years but keeping residency positions (federally funded) the same. This will make it difficult for foreign graduates to enter into the upcoming years residency matches, particularly 2013-2016

www.nrmp.org...

edit on 083030p://4America/ChicagoWed, 11 Apr 2012 08:59:45 -0500 by THE_PROFESSIONAL because: (no reason given)

You have a good grip on the data and process; are you a med student or adcom?

I wanted to weigh in on the comment about fewer residents choosing primary care. That seems to be changing. At our school we've had a definitive upward trend over the past few years. I'm an older student myself and came back to medicine specifically to do primary care (either internal med or family med). There are huge perks to picking primary care now - loan forgiveness, or in some cases no cost at all.

Additionally, many of us are going to follow practice models like Jay Parkinson which eliminate insurance and government issues almost completely.

I think this will equate to more and more US alloathic programs showing higher turn out for primary care residencies. Hopefully anyway.