Are chemtrail believers acting immorally?

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posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 05:32 AM
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reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 


Here's a good resource that proves that contrails look pretty much the same as they always have.....I started a thread about it a while ago....Hope it helps in the debunking of this nonsense!


contrailscience.com...




posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 05:52 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 06:21 AM
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Originally posted by User8911
Hi Aloysius the Gaul, looks like you got your job back.

Next time, change name so you being a shill won't be so obvious.
...


Consider this;
it is possible to be so concerned that a subset of people believe they are being sprayed by life-shortening chemicals when in fact they are simply misidentifying a relatively new yet scientifically predictable phenomenon, that any normal empathic human-being would want to do what they were able to correct this mistaken view that resulted in so much unjustified fear and paranoia and mistrust of their fellow human-beings, WITHOUT actually having to be a paid agent of any imagined conspirators.
You know, as just a part of a basic human instinct to correct falsehood where one can see it clearly.

Just a possibility you might want to consider, if you're actually interested in reality.
If not, carry on.
edit on 11-4-2012 by delusion because: (no reason given)
edit on 11-4-2012 by delusion because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 08:02 AM
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I am now going to start "Alerting" all posts in which people are insulting others by calling them "shills". Seriously, grow up and stop insulting people when you cant think of a better argument.

OP: Yes, I have a feeling that even "chemtrailers" don't believe their own theories anymore. Lets disregard the massive scale in which it would encompass and the amount of secrecy it would have to maintain to remain undetected by the public.


Lets focus on the obvious. You believe the government is killing you and your children along with everyone else. Do you:

A. Find conclusive proof of such an occurrence.

B. Outright lie about it to convince others.

C. Post in conspiracy forums about how much it sucks and you wish they would stop.

D. All of the above.
edit on 11-4-2012 by TsukiLunar because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 08:30 AM
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Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

Originally posted by Iwinder
It is pretty tough to get actual verifiable evidence that Geo engineering is real unless you have a lab and pilots and planes at your disposal.
And lots of money also, what you would be up against, is government's that are proven time and time again to lie with no regrets at all.


$50k got raised to make What in the World are they Spraying. Aircraft are cheaper to hire than that, and all over the world chemtrail believers are getting tests done by independent labs and then flagrantly misrepresenting the results.

So there's plenty of money, and plenty of access to labs.

I don't know what show you watched, but the one I saw did not misrepresent any results I am aware of. And $50,000 is chump change when you want to rent a full size 757 for testing. That wont even buy the gas analyzer to test the exhaust emissions. Besides that what makes you think chemtrails are done by airlines? If it a nefarious plot to sicken and kill millions it would make more sense if it were done by black ops government funding through the CIA and not done by airlines with millions of passengers looking out the _

I wonder if you believe in GOD or the Easter bunny? Neither one is proven to exist yet millions are willing to risk life and limb for God because they believe. Dark matter is known to exist even though we can't see it. Time may or may not exist, but we use it every day.

The government has proven that it can and will play God with it's own people and do experiments that can kill an entire community. The precedent has been set and only a total moron would ignore that. People are in charge of government agencies and each one has their own agenda. If enough of them agree on something and have the authority to get it rolling who would know?

There will never be any acceptable evidence for your type. You will blindly follow and believe against all reason what you are told by those you idolize. If it makes for job security even better. When you are confronted with evidence contrary to what you have always believed you will attack the character of the informant and then their personal and business lives until they are no longer reputable sources. You might even be dumb enough to do this for free because you "Believe" in the cause.

Right now I can look up and see sky turds crossing the sky nearly every day. I am sure lots of people are under the impression that they are harmless vapor clouds. The fact is that they contain many nasty substances that eventually make their way into our water supply and the air we breathe. Defending contrails as harmless nuisances is asinine. Doing it for free is worse than being paid to defend the status quo because at least those being paid know the truth and just act dumb.



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 08:34 AM
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Now I have heard it all.

Talk about twisted logic.



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 08:43 AM
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Originally posted by delusion

Originally posted by User8911
Hi Aloysius the Gaul, looks like you got your job back.

Next time, change name so you being a shill won't be so obvious.
...


Consider this;
it is possible to be so concerned that a subset of people believe they are being sprayed by life-shortening chemicals when in fact they are simply misidentifying a relatively new yet scientifically predictable phenomenon, that any normal empathic human-being would want to do what they were able to correct this mistaken view that resulted in so much unjustified fear and paranoia and mistrust of their fellow human-beings, WITHOUT actually having to be a paid agent of any imagined conspirators.
You know, as just a part of a basic human instinct to correct falsehood where one can see it clearly.

Just a possibility you might want to consider, if you're actually interested in reality.
If not, carry on.
edit on 11-4-2012 by delusion because: (no reason given)
edit on 11-4-2012 by delusion because: (no reason given)


Just a little background on paid shills for you sir since you seem to think they don't exist.

Many companies as well as government agencies have admitted to paying people to find forums with their specific topics and defend them for pay. They are mostly paid by the post at a set rate. You may choose to live in the dark and believe the world is made of cookies and cream, but there is a subset of people who can see right through bs because they have been a part of it.

Maybe your black and white outlook comes from your sheltered upbringing? Maybe you have not been exposed to the real gray world that is humming right along without you? Maybe you think George Bush is a saint and Obama is the Antichrist? Maybe you think Iraq, Iran, Syria and the rest of the Middle Eastern countries are useless eaters? Maybe not. The point is that governments are not above experimenting on their own people or orchestrating an event like 911 to garner support for a war NOBODY wanted.

Follow the money if you want the truth!



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 08:58 AM
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Originally posted by RealSpoke
reply to post by Ghost375
 


Pictures of contrails aren't evidence

Hypothetical patents aren't evidence

Cloud seeding isn't evidence


1. I would agree with that, we have not seen many pictures of contrails... these far larger longer lasting trails resemble literally nothing that we saw in the 70's 80's 90's.

2. What is a hypothetical patent


3. Sure it is, it is filling the sky with garbage just like you deniers deny can happen.


I guess you guys have sure taken it too us, by defining the argument, cannot wait till the skies are not filled with this garbage...O nothing like a good Persistent Con-Trail ruining my day at the beach !!



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 09:02 AM
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reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 


I just found this thread.
I must admit that I find it a little insulting. I would like to find the truth about something I can't prove exists. Hmmm...sounds like religion.
That makes me immoral? Interesting...

This is not something that will be solved by searching the web. There is way too much crap floating around online. I have been mucking my way through it for about a year and a half and just when I find what I think is evidence, it turns into crap.

Sorry folks, but the truth is not out there. Not on the web.

Unless someone in the scientific community can provide verifiable proof (that dreaded word) of chemtrail spraying, we are just left with .....well...you know.......crap.
I am not in the position to rent an airplane with which to take samples. I had to laugh when I read that.
There does not seem to be any way to verify whether or not the spraying is real. At least not that I can think of. Yet
So I will not be posting in the chemtrail forums anymore. It is a pointless waste of time. IMO

That does not mean I will stop looking for the truth though.
I can't seem to help myself.
edit on 11-4-2012 by Neysa because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 09:51 AM
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Originally posted by Neysa----->Hmmm...sounds like religion


Exactly.




There is way too much crap floating around online.


True that.




we are just left with .....well...you know.......crap.


That's the "law about computers" (that danm machine you and i use to get online) crap in=crap out.




It is a pointless waste of time.


Yeah.




There does not seem to be any way to verify whether or not the spraying is real.


Well there's no spraying of anything going on in my airline.
We're over responsible, underpaid. NO ONE would get into the spraying business for free.
If somebody suggested that to me i would tell him/her to bug off and get a life.

Chemtrails is a religion just like the hollow eart and the moon landings (oh, and Titanic)



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 10:14 AM
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All I have to say is this, good. Good their changing our atmosphere, we need it. We've essential screwed the pooch with our testing of nuclear armaments in the troposphere. We need Geo-engineering. However, I do believe it right and necessary that they disclose the chemical compounds and formulas and what they speculate it will do in the atmosphere, too the environment and too the citizens of heavy spray areas.

Heck, even Bill gates wants to start geo-engineering. However, Im still in the air whether what they appear to spraying in the skies is just ice particles (contrails) or an actual spray. Its hard to truly tell from the ground without air samples from day to day. But some days do look far more checker boarded (human patterned)than others.



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 10:20 AM
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Originally posted by Goldcurrent
If chemtrail believers are acting immorally, then how immoral are the debunkers?

How can believeing in something that is not happening make you immoral.

I don't believe in Santa Claus am I immoral?


I would say they are the worse offenders for blocking the search for truth.

This is precisely what the OP is on about. Please prevent the evidence that the truth has been blocked. Simply stating "The lack of evidence is proof of a cover up" is logical nonsense. Again:

There is no proof that Santa Claus exists, therefore, according to your logic, we who do not believe in Santa Claus are blocking the truth about him.......sheeesh!!!


This will be the last time I comment on this antagonizing thread.
edit on 10-4-2012 by Goldcurrent because: (no reason given)

Hmmm, I wonder why. My guess is you know you can't provide one shred of proof that your belief is correct.



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 10:55 AM
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Originally posted by RealSpoke
reply to post by Ghost375
 


Pictures of contrails aren't evidence

Hypothetical patents aren't evidence

Cloud seeding isn't evidence



So what IS EVIDENCE?

Are you of the opinion that what goes up must stay up?

Do you believe that breathing exhaust fumes or drinking fuel is fine and cannot cause any harm to people?

Is EVERY con-trail formed in cold moist air?

Does the trail formed by jets inhibit the natural growth of plants because of the clouds they form?

You can deny any of these things are real worries or even worth consideration by "Smart" people. I on the other hand am intrigued to know the answers yet unable to perform the testing required to get them. If I were to be on the other side of the argument I might stand on my high horse and call all of the dissenters names or attack their mental health without having to prove anything.

So tell me, what proof do you need and where do you suppose that proof will come from? Let's be realistic too because any normal person can not be expected to come up with evidence of something so hard to test.

I say if you have eyes and can see skyturds you must admit they do not belong in the sky. The emissions ARE dangerous which is why you don't drink fuel or breathe exhaust. Unwanted clouds directly affect plant life and solar panels. These are FACTS yet they will be denied by those who say nothing is wrong.

So who is being Immoral?



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 11:11 AM
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Originally posted by Gmoneycricket

Originally posted by tsurfer2000h
reply to post by Gmoneycricket
 





So you are going on record, as none has ever had a cancer related to your industry. Pretty bold statement.


You still haven't provided us with any proof of cancer being caused by contrails, so that is a bold statement to say it has been caused by his industry.
edit on 10-4-2012 by tsurfer2000h because: (no reason given)


Do you need the picture of the exhaust that you guys furnished,
that shows these in a contrail again.
I see cancer at the bottom.
The list is what you have shown as a picture of what you call harmless water vapor,
a man made cloud.






wiki.answers.com...
CxHy is the general chemical formula of a hydrocarbon: This is an organic compound consisting entirely of hydrogen and carbon.
Alkanes, alkenes, cycloalkanes, alkyne-based compounds and aromatic hydrocarbons (arenes) are different types of hydrocarbons
www.epa.gov... (CO)
Carbon monoxide is an odorless, colorless and toxic gas. Because it is impossible to see, taste or smell the toxic fumes, CO can kill you before you are aware it is in your home. At lower levels of exposure, CO causes mild effects that are often mistaken for the flu. These symptoms include headaches, dizziness, disorientation, nausea and fatigue. The effects of CO exposure can vary greatly from person to person depending on age, overall health and the concentration and length of exposure.
www.epa.gov...
Sulfur dioxide (SO2) is one of a group of highly reactive gasses known as “oxides of sulfur.” The largest sources of SO2 emissions are from fossil fuel combustion at power plants (73%) and other industrial facilities (20%). Smaller sources of SO2 emissions include industrial processes such as extracting metal from ore, and the burning of high sulfur containing fuels by locomotives, large ships, and non-road equipment. SO2 is linked with a number of adverse effects on the respiratory system.
www.epa.gov...
Nitrogen dioxide (NO2) is one of a group of highly reactive gasses known as "oxides of nitrogen," or "nitrogen oxides (NOx)." Other nitrogen oxides include nitrous acid and nitric acid. While EPA’s National Ambient Air Quality Standard covers this entire group of NOx, NO2 is the component of greatest interest and the indicator for the larger group of nitrogen oxides. NO2 forms quickly from emissions from cars, trucks and buses, power plants, and off-road equipment. In addition to contributing to the formation of ground-level ozone, and fine particle pollution, NO2 is linked with a number of adverse effects on the respiratory system.
en.wikipedia.org...
Water is a chemical substance with the chemical formula H2O. A water molecule contains one oxygen and two hydrogen atoms connected by covalent bonds. Water is a liquid at ambient conditions, but it often co-exists on Earth with its solid state, ice, and gaseous state (water vapor or steam). Water also exists in a liquid crystal state near hydrophilic surfaces.[1][2] Under nomenclature used to name chemical compounds, Dihydrogen monoxide is the scientific name for water, though it is almost never used.[

en.wikipedia.org...
Soot ( /ˈsʊt/) is a general term that refers to impure carbon particles resulting from the incomplete combustion of a hydrocarbon. It is more properly restricted to the product of the gas-phase combustion process but is commonly extended to include the residual pyrolyzed fuel particles such as coal, cenospheres, charred wood, petroleum coke, and so on, that may become airborne during pyrolysis and that are more properly identified as cokes or chars.
The gas-phase soots contain polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs).[1] The PAHs in soot are known mutagens [2] and are classified as a "known human carcinogen" by the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC).[3]


I suppose calling jet exhaust harmless is immoral.

Denying there is anything other than water vapor in airplane exhaust is an outright LIE and could be considered immoral.



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 11:34 AM
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reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 


I believe the blog entry is using the opinion that chem trail believers have a "moral' obligation to do more than just post pictures and link to other websites as a manipulative tool to get them to stop talking altogether. I don't think the intention of the article matches his stated "belief" that they should be doing more to stop them. Therefore, the whole article is invalid. He's not interested in more chem trail information, he wants to stop hearing about it.

If the article was written from the perspective that chem trail believers should be doing more to document chem trails and research them, in a helpful instead of hostile manner, then I might be inclined to think that sounded like a good idea.
edit on 11-4-2012 by darkbake because: (no reason given)
edit on 11-4-2012 by darkbake because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 11:51 AM
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reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 




15 years since this conspiracy began - and still not 1 single piece of verifiable evidence. NOT ONE!


Well, yeah. The thing is, some people ARE trying to prove it. And when they do the ground work, they prove that it's simply not happening, and just disappear to save face.

Can't say I blame them. It's pretty simple, if this was happening like 90% of the chemtrail believers say, it would have been documented as fact by now, you simply can't run an operation like the one being claimed without it being detected.

honestly, some of these people will deny the existence of normal contrails, everything in the sky is some chemical agent to depopulate the world.

The blogger nailed it. Those believers who come here smashing us over the head with empty file folders devoid of facts are doing a disservice to those actually wanting answers. Go to any chemtrial thread on ats. It's the same information, same quoted patent applications, same pseudo science, same baseless claims.

But the worst part is, each and every thread, is thoroughly debunked with the same evidence, every time, that gets ignored.

It's beyond immoral. Actively ignoring evidence.



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 03:57 PM
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reply to post by darkbake
 


So you think that actually finding proof is not a good idea because someone (me) posted the suggestion in a manner you don't like?

Is that right - the search for evidence shouldn't happen because you feel a little put out by my tone?

So more excuses not to do it then.

Typical.



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 04:15 PM
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Originally posted by onecraftydude

I don't know what show you watched, but the one I saw did not misrepresent any results I am aware of.


You not being aware of their deception is somethgni that can be fixed - here you go - now you know how they fooled you - or you willfully choose to not know - either way you have no excuse any more.



And $50,000 is chump change when you want to rent a full size 757 for testing. That wont even buy the gas analyzer to test the exhaust emissions.


Who has to buy it? there's many labs around will do the work.

And why do you have to hire a 757?

Some example jet charter costs - most of these are for several hours - 3-5 - and include full service, multiple airport charges, visits, etc at the end, so you can erduce them for a single 60-90 minute flight accordingly.

But you could also just charter an aircraft to do the sampling, and only fly it whn ther are contrails to be sampled.


Besides that what makes you think chemtrails are done by airlines?


Oh well that would be all the reports of them doing it from all around the world - eg check out this YT seach for"Airline chemtrail"



If it a nefarious plot to sicken and kill millions it would make more sense if it were done by black ops government funding through the CIA and not done by airlines with millions of passengers looking out the _


you'd think so, wouldn't you - and yet the hundred of "chemtrails" seen all over hte world being made by commercial airliners, videos of them taken out passenger windows, etc., all say otherwise.


I wonder if you believe in GOD or the Easter bunny? Neither one is proven to exist yet millions are willing to risk life and limb for God because they believe. Dark matter is known to exist even though we can't see it. Time may or may not exist, but we use it every day.


and we have and do not have good evidence for those that we think exist - unlike chemtrails.


The government has proven that it can and will play God with it's own people and do experiments that can kill an entire community. The precedent has been set and only a total moron would ignore that. People are in charge of government agencies and each one has their own agenda. If enough of them agree on something and have the authority to get it rolling who would know?


Having motive does not prove that a crime was committed - nor are experiments in the past evidence that a different act is being carried out now.


There will never be any acceptable evidence for your type.


Rubbish - that's just another excuse not to do anything.

If you can show good verifiable evidence that "chemtrails" exist then all us people who rely upon actual evidence will certainly believe it.


The fact is that they contain many nasty substances that eventually make their way into our water supply and the air we breathe.


More so than "normal" pollution? where are the facts that support that conclusion?


Defending contrails as harmless nuisances is asinine.


No-one is actually "defending" contrails - contrails are what they are - visible evidence of pollution - but that pollution is happening whether there are contrails or not, and there is a LOT more of it being generated at ground level than at 30,000+ feet.


Doing it for free is worse than being paid to defend the status quo because at least those being paid know the truth and just act dumb.


more excuses for not doing anything.....
edit on 11-4-2012 by Aloysius the Gaul because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 05:01 PM
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reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 


I am not a "Chemmie".

That said, I still don't like the clouds left by airplanes and I noticed you decided not to refute the loss of power from solar panels or the possibility of reduced vegetation growth directly related to artificial clouds formed by contrails.

You are a professional debunker for the airline industry even if it is voluntary. You will always say the same thing and ignore what you can't disprove. Even if the entire idea of chemtrails is total BS and there has never been anything sprayed on the population the fact remains that we endure pollution from airplane exhaust in multiple ways every day and people like you only help to prop up the status quo which will NEVER lead to a solution.

I might add that a precedent has been set by our government and in legal terms that means they can and most likely WILL do the same thing again.



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 05:11 PM
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Another possibility to gather evidence is to get a good camera lens and tripod capable of getting shots that can identify planes when they are 30 000 feet up.

If it's a commercial flight, then you can track down verifiable information about it, like its timetable, destinations, fuelling procedure, etc.
If they are unmarked and untraceable, or consistently military in origin, then that would count as evidence for the conspiracy.
Some planes exist that are legitimately unmarked though, so make sure to eliminate those possibilities.

Also, where flights are turning around and going over patches of sky over and over again, make sure to record it in order to to prove that it is the same plane. Then eliminate the possibility of holding patterns or flight training exercises.

Surely, if the future health of you and your neighbour's families are at risk, then someone can make the sacrifice and volunteer to get the equipment necessary to gather this data?
Isn't it a pretty serious issue?

If people are happy to donate money to the producers of chemtrail documentaries, then you can get people to donate money to purchase the camera equipment that can document and prove conclusively what the evil bastards are doing.
If you believe this is taking place, then morally you should be doing EVERYTHING within your power to prove to those that don't believe you that it is happening.

It would be a great service to mankind and you would be a hero.

The opposite of that is to be promoting fear, mistrust and hysteria over something that is not what it is claimed to be.

edit on 11-4-2012 by delusion because: (no reason given)
edit on 11-4-2012 by delusion because: (no reason given)





 
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