The 'Nazi' Economic Miracle.

Originally posted by MDDoxs


I recommend reading “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” by William Shirer. It goes into great detail as to the financial investments the west made during this time in Germany and how Hitler took advantage of the wests willingness to fund the Nazi party in exchange for juicy manufacturing and chemical contracts.

You are so cruel.... (I'll explain)

I echo your recommendation though as Shrier's book is a exhaustive and comprehensive look at the entire affair....

... but I think you're cruel in that you didn't warn the OP about the length and scope of the book.... (it makes "Mein Kampf" seem like a pamphlet in comparison)... excellent suggestion!

To all ....

Thank you for remaining committed to a civil discourse... that is how we can get the most out of the subject matter... while avoiding the distractions of entrenched bias.

Way to go folks!

Originally posted by MDDoxs
reply to post by Damrod

 

I was reluctant to participate in this thread....weird....something about acknowledging Nazi germany in a positive light makes my skin crawl.

However...If I am not mistaken....the west invested in Germany for a couple of reasons. Number one...their system of education. They had the smartest engineers and scientist anywhere on the planet.

Number two...their system of education....etc...etc...etc (get the point?)

The Germans had, at the time, one of the highest standards of education of anyone in the world. Capitalist corporations saw this and the mental and physical discipline of the people and said "hey...I can make a buck here"...

And the rest is ugly history.

I don't think a fiat system of money is what rose them out of the collapse of post WW1...it was people impressed with their tenacity and discipline that invested in them....and then those investments were turned toward a war machine....

I agree with the points you have made.

I recommend reading “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” by William Shirer. It goes into great detail as to the financial investments the west made during this time in Germany and how Hitler took advantage of the wests willingness to fund the Nazi party in exchange for juicy manufacturing and chemical contracts.

edit on 10-4-2012 by MDDoxs because: (no reason given)

thanks for the advice on the book, one to look out for. i myself have no leanings towards one of the largest killing machines history has written about. my amazement is in the breakthroughs that were made in jet tech and the fact that one man got that powerful, those in awe just got sucked up by it all.

imo a country should be judged by how it treats its vunerable and due to the current financial climate, could this re-appear again? hope not.

f.

... but I think you're cruel in that you didn't warn the OP about the length and scope of the book.... (it makes "Mein Kampf" seem like a pamphlet in comparison)... excellent suggestion!

Haha yes the book is a very Exhaustive endeavor, but well worth the time. It is a great source of information for not only the German Reich, but also provides a historical foundation for the events that occurred during this time.

thanks for the advice on the book, one to look out for. i myself have no leanings towards one of the largest killing machines history has written about. my amazement is in the breakthroughs that were made in jet tech and the fact that one man got that powerful, those in awe just got sucked up by it all.

This book with it extensive detail touches on all the topics you just mentioned, and it really gives you a good picture of the level of development and sophistication of countries involved.

The book gives a very un-biased opinion on several of the topics as mentioned by fellow ATS'ers. Where Mien Kampf may be a little opinionated.

Many atrocities were committed by the Nazis even before the start of WW2 with the treatment of the Jewish population along with the insane, the handicapped and the elderly.
Much of the National Socialist miracle you speak of was directly due to massive infusions of money from the Federal Reserve and Bank of England. Tens of millions of dollars in direct loans to be specific.
Yes, the German people were very ingenious and the greatest scientists of their day but without money the brightest of minds can do little.
National Socialism succeeded through violence and smear tactics against their opponents. Even the loyal Brownshirts were murdered when it was felt they were a danger.

If that is the kind of political organization you would like to portray as a "great success" I would prefer utter failure as an alternative.
If you must come to power by burning down your own government buildings, blaming communists and Jews for every problem under the sun and beating your enemies into submission it says a great deal about your own character. That is unless you really don't know the facts behind the rise of the Nazi party and would rather romanticize their role in history.

If full employment is a miracle then Stalin was a magician too.

Originally posted by Asktheanimals
Many atrocities were committed by the Nazis even before the start of WW2 with the treatment of the Jewish population along with the insane, the handicapped and the elderly.
Much of the National Socialist miracle you speak of was directly due to massive infusions of money from the Federal Reserve and Bank of England. Tens of millions of dollars in direct loans to be specific.
Yes, the German people were very ingenious and the greatest scientists of their day but without money the brightest of minds can do little.
National Socialism succeeded through violence and smear tactics against their opponents. Even the loyal Brownshirts were murdered when it was felt they were a danger.

If that is the kind of political organization you would like to portray as a "great success" I would prefer utter failure as an alternative.
If you must come to power by burning down your own government buildings, blaming communists and Jews for every problem under the sun and beating your enemies into submission it says a great deal about your own character. That is unless you really don't know the facts behind the rise of the Nazi party and would rather romanticize their role in history.

If full employment is a miracle then Stalin was a magician too.

The communists were to blkame for everything under the sun. Germany had beaten back the Russians and were on the brink of victory since they could now focus on one front. So what do the commies do? Organise strikes that lose the war. I can understand why Hitler was so pissed. Imagine fighting for your country risking your life on the front line then you hear the news that your country is striking against you. It makes me angry just thinking about it. Imagine how Hitler felt.

And I like National Socialism. I find that most 'socialists' today are actually just limp wristed liberals that like to whine about things and stamp their feet. They make me sick. National Socialism means action as far as I can tell. And sometimes in History it seems that you get to a point where you need to take radical and drastic action. Its coming around again. We will all be living like Greeks before long if we dont do something. The hipster OWS is just something they can laugh at. We need to have a plan and be committed.

reply to post by Germanicus


Hitler was a smart man, most Nazi's were. And no one will argue that he wasn't a good leader which brought Germany from the brink of destruction into a powerhouse. However, his other policies were... Umm... Not quite sane. (Ubermensch theories and genocides.) If he'd have left that part out of the equation, I'm sure the NSDAP would still be around.

Originally posted by Asktheanimals
Many atrocities were committed by the Nazis even before the start of WW2 with the treatment of the Jewish population along with the insane, the handicapped and the elderly.

I wonder if we are to believe that their rise to prosperity as a nation was a result of the decimation of the gypsies, 'eugenically' undesirables and the object of their leaders' obsessive bias?

Their economic turn around certain didn't happen without outside help, this we know. But management of public works and industrial investment was certainly a factor as well.

National Socialism succeeded through violence and smear tactics against their opponents. Even the loyal Brownshirts were murdered when it was felt they were a danger.

The more cynical among us would say "How is that different from today?" The doctrine of social politics has remained almost unchanged with the sole exception being that as the world has grown smaller, it has become more difficult, by an order of magnitude , to decieve the people... (they still pull it off though - a testiment to the power of money.)

I undetrstand your objection to the spirit of the Nazi regime, and like you, most, though not all people understand that there are unavoidable consequences for brutality and institutionalized hatred. The ends do not justify the means. I reject Nazi principles too.

But I still would like to see a discussion that doesn't involve characterizing those discussing it. In the end, this is not hidden, so if it were malignant, most would see it for what it is. So far I have not sensed any romanticism regarding the evil of the regime. Only a desire to discuss how they achieved such economic stabilty and strength over so short a time..... I know where this leads... and many might be surprised to discover exactly how this happened....

If we cannot discuss this, we lose the footing one requires to understand exactly who 'makes war possible'... as opposed to the many who would use war for their own vainglorious attempts as deification, like Hitler.

Gosh - thread dealing with MK and Hitler without descending into madness.

For me, the important point is that if the Party had kept to economics - and the job creation was pretty amazing - then our history of Nazism would be so different. But instead, the other elements of MK - the dependence on lebensraum for expansion, and the need to unite by using the traditional, pre First World War Semitic hate figure -entirely corrupted National Socialism.

Hitler ruined the economic gain made by the Party by letting his prejudices and his elements of crazy overwhelm any good he had done, and wrecked Germany by taking it to war - incompetently - when what it needed was a settled period of peace and consolidation. Without Hitler and his chosen inner circle of fantasy-prone psychotics, Germany might have become the model for post-depression economic growth in Europe.

Another Issue to discuss in relation between the concept of nationalism and German economic growth.

Firstly, this thread is about the economic development and potential of Germany during the Nazi Regime and not the ideology they held, specifically the notions of race inferiority/superiority etc.

However, it should be noted that German Nationalism was a strong driving force behind the growth of the German Economy, coupled with western investment etc. Now this is where we have to be careful and not divert onto a prejudice based tangent, but I ask If it was not for some of the radical beliefs on German race superiority would such a strong level of nationalism exist? And therefore result in a common desire to work hard for the prosperity and even superiority of one’s nation?

Originally posted by Snippy23
Gosh - thread dealing with MK and Hitler without descending into madness.

Amazing isn't it? Try this anywhere else and see how far you get!

This was the point of my earliest post. I believe that most members here CAN discuss almost ANYTHING without needing to be derisive or confrontational... but this entire post is essentially Off-Topic... apologies.

reply to post by Snippy23


I think you are right. He went too far and he got too full of himself. I think he had waded into the river of blood so far that it became easier to keep going than to turn back. I was reading that he predicted that Britan would not declare war over Poland. He got that wrong. After that he was all in. I think he thought that he could reclaim the land lost after WW1 and defeat France before sitting a while but it just snowballed.

Stalingrad was the decisive victory of WW2 and I think America takes way to much credit for being the 'saviour' but I cant help wondering what might have happened if Japan didnt attack Pearl Harbour when they did and give America an excuse to enter.

But yeah,he messed up in the end. And his tactics were not always honourable but I do think he loved Germany and the German people and in his mind the end justified the means.

reply to post by Germanicus


I think someone may have taken their eye off the ball here. Anyone can grow an economy when the labour costs are next to zero. Forced slave labour anyone? :-

en.wikipedia.org...

Make no mistake, Germany 'Nationalism' under Hitler was nothing more than that devil's ambition to rule the world, make the great and industrious German People automatons/robots, and the rest of mankind as slaves.

There was NO shred of intelligence over economy needed for such ambitions. All it takes is a cold ruthless heart. Even you or any simpleman can do the job, with animal cunning. THat's what Hitler, the vagabond failed austrian artist whom became a dictator, truly was.

Robbing, cheating, manipulation, annihilation of mankind, rule of might instead of honest reason, was the true 'economic miracle' of the Nazis. If you are the top dog or bootlicker of such policies, then you will do well, and may you with conscience sleep well while the rest of your fellow human race suffer in pain of enslavement.

If you are a true fellow human, with responsibilities to your fellow man in the name of responsible freedom, you will choose between the fight or the grave to end such atrocities, as our WW2 forefathers did, even in our modern times when leaders fail to learn from the mistakes of history, if not for yourselves, it will be for the innocent next generations, to live responsibly free....

reply to post by MDDoxs

Now this is where we have to be careful and not divert onto a prejudice based tangent, but I ask If it was not for some of the radical beliefs on German race superiority would such a strong level of nationalism exist? And therefore result in a common desire to work hard for the prosperity and even superiority of one’s nation?

Yeah,like Ive read about how the nation had no pride after WW1. Hitler gave them their pride back. And a bit of healthy narcissism makes achieving your goals alot easier. I think you are right about the strong nationalism being linked to their achievments as a nation.

Its crazy that in todays world 'nationalist' almost translates to 'racism' to many people.

Originally posted by alldaylong
reply to post by Germanicus

 

I think someone may have taken their eye off the ball here. Anyone can grow an economy when the labour costs are next to zero. Forced slave labour anyone? :-

en.wikipedia.org...

But that was during the war. Hitler didnt use forced labour before the war as far as I know. I know the first thing he did was round up the commies and send them to camps for re-education but Im not sure what work they did. But to say that Hitler turned the economy around due to forced labour makes me wonder if your eye is on the ball.

Originally posted by Germanicus

Originally posted by alldaylong
reply to post by Germanicus

 

I think someone may have taken their eye off the ball here. Anyone can grow an economy when the labour costs are next to zero. Forced slave labour anyone? :-

en.wikipedia.org...

But that was during the war. Hitler didnt use forced labour before the war as far as I know. I know the first thing he did was round up the commies and send them to camps for re-education but Im not sure what work they did. But to say that Hitler turned the economy around due to forced labour makes me wonder if your eye is on the ball.

The Reich economy didn't suddenly stop after WWII broke out. It had to be maintained. As millions of Germans had been enlisted into the Armed Forces their places had to be taken in manufacturing the war effort by slave labour.
Let us not also forget that during Hitlers rise to power, anyone who opposed him was "Removed" I am sure that is an ethical way to run a political party.........NOT.

Deeper reading shows that the third Reich was bankrupt by 1939, so Adolf had to go to war, to grab the gold and foreign currency held by the banks of the countries he attacked, look how much gold Switzerland ended up with by 1945, The attack on Russia? for grain, oil, nickle, etc., plus attack before being attacked.
One last point, just how much did American bankers loan Hitler in the thirties? (plus German industrialists)

Originally posted by Germanicus


Yeah,like Ive read about how the nation had no pride after WW1. Hitler gave them their pride back. And a bit of healthy narcissism makes achieving your goals alot easier. I think you are right about the strong nationalism being linked to their achievments as a nation.

Its crazy that in todays world 'nationalist' almost translates to 'racism' to many people.

First, understand why the misled germans after WW2 had no pride. It stems from awakening of the lies spread by the Kaiser about german superiority and the shame for losing the war and the pain/suffering inflicted upon every human, including themselves with massive war debts to pay.

Hitler came to power during the depression era, and promise them dreams, the way the devil would tempt a weak human with untold power and wealth. Again, the suffering german masses fell for it. And in the end, they suffer the worst of suffering, watching their nation burned to ashes by an angry worldwide humanity, and if hitler had his way, more would have died for that bas*ard declared all germans should die in a Gotttermerung with him.

The war had proven genetic superiority and eugenics are nothing more than fantasies. Fortunately, today;s majority of free german people no longer buys that BS anymore, but had instead contributed much to the progress and evolution of mankind through their dedication, attention to detail, and in a sad manner, its clinging on to authoritarianism as the way of life, far different from indepent progress americans, whom question everything and evolved faster both on intellectual and physical natures.

Although germany remains very much a homogenous society like japan, racism is far lesser than in USA and Japan. They will work with anyone, evident in their worldwide reach with factories set up and humming prosperously. There is still some racism, but no more than any other nation in our infant class 0 civilisation yet to evolve.

They had learnt their lesson well, and its only the minority few germans that remained stubbornly ignorant, clinging on to a madman's theory, whom subscribe to Nietsche,another proven madmen who was sent to an asylum by his worshipper, Hitler himself.

alldaylong

Let us not also forget that during Hitlers rise to power, anyone who opposed him was "Removed" I am sure that is an ethical way to run a political party.........NOT.

Do you really believe this isn't the way it is now? Anyone who opposes someone in power is often "removed." Remember Lincoln, or Kennedy? This isn't a defect of the time... nor the economy... it is one of the hazards of allowing elitists to rule.

pikestaff

One last point, just how much did American bankers loan Hitler in the thirties? (plus German industrialists

For starters... www.businesspundit.com...

But this was of course only the tip of the iceberg... ask Her Majesty or the Bush estate.... maybe they know more.

reply to post by Maxmars


I think it's impossible to discuss the success of National Socialist economics without making reference to their beliefs, practices and methodologies with which they came to power. Most regimes don't come to power by murdering or locking up their enemies in fact the only Western nations to have done so in the 20th century were solely the Fascist powers of Spain, Italy and Germany.

While full employment is certainly desirable there were many other "hidden"costs, shall we say?:

The number of women enrolled in post-secondary education plummeted, and womens' rights were sharply curtailed.

The government controlled artistic expression, promoting specific forms of art and discouraging or banning others.

The first concentration camp for political prisoners was opened at Dachau near Munich in 1933 and "between 1933 and 1945, more than 3 million Germans had been in concentration camps, or prison, for political reasons"

The OP sympathizes with the feeling of betrayal conveyed by Hitler as described in Mein Kampf which is NOT based on truth:

Advocates denounced the German government leaders who signed the Armistice on November 11, 1918, as the "November Criminals". Scholars inside and outside Germany unanimously reject the notion, pointing out the German army was out of reserves and was being overwhelmed in late 1918.[2]

en.wikipedia.org...

The US joining the effort against Germany doomed any chance of success or of a negotiated treaty based on equality of position. In fact over 12,000 Jewish Germans gave their lives in the conflict of WWI. Sympathy is easy to generate when you only read one side of a story.
I've read Mein Kampf and I've read insane amounts of literature about the German war machine and their incredible innovations, ingenuity and ambition. They built the best tanks, aircraft, artillery, submarines, automatic weapons, optics and more. They had superior training and tactics and in many ways it's a wonder they didn't defeat the USSR were it not for the personal intervention of Hitler.
Yet all these were achieved at a steep human cost, not just to their enemies but to their own countrymen as well.
That is the point I am trying to make,