Pell says Adam and Eve didn't exist

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by MrXYZ

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

It's called quantitative methods and is one of the most basic principles too.

So basically the Microbiologists forget it exists? Or forget it's relevant? Help me out here. I'm still waiting for you to explain to me why those dealing with DNA and RNA are fleeing Darwinian Evolution like rats from a sinking ship.

They aren't fleeing it

Again, the large majority of scientists support evolution...and with large majority I mean more than 99% according to the latest polls.

And Microbiologists don't forget it exists...that's why they don't agree with your fairy tale wanna-be probability figure

Still waiting to see these polls...

Here's why you claiming scientists are "fleeing the theory in droves" is complete and utter nonsense...it is in fact a LIE.

Of course you're simply going to ignore this

And here you can clearly see that as the education level increases (aka people become more knowledgeable), people suddenly understand and accept the theory: LINK

reply to post by addygrace

There are no lies to what I post. You are considering that Humanity started with Homosapiens...it did not....and that is a provable fact. You also state that Adam and Eve had a perfect Genome...do even know what that means? You are taling about Genetics without having even the most basic understanding of what the Human Genome or any othe Amimals...this inclused Bacteria, Insects, Omeba and Plant life Genomes consist of or how all are inter-related.

If you are a Religious person of Faith...well good for you. I am not trying to belittle your faith. But do yourself a favor...don't deny facts as it makes you look one dimentional and unyielding in your drive to confirm your Faith.

Split Infinity

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I am starting to feel a bit sorry for you. You are Born Again...if I remember...thus your statement of coming into Faith at a later date than birth. In the sense that you have found something in Faith I am happy for you. Where I am sad is that you feel that any provable data that is in conflict with the King James version of the Bible...a version that even the VATICAN has admitted that there are multiple mistranslation of ancient text...you are quick to anger and last time I checked...that is VERY UNCHRISTIAN LIKE.

If you feel that some of the Provable Scientific and even Proven by Christian Leadership has said is not facts within the King James version of the Bible...then how deep is your FAITH? I know Born Again Christians and they acknowledge that there are numerous areas in the King James version of the Bible that are mistranslations...but their Faith is not shaken...they just have said to me...the importance of the Bibe is not in what may or maynot have happened but what the TEACHINGS are of peoples ability to Love one another and Turn the other cheek.

Even Jesus said...If you do not believe in me...believe in what I do or represent. Jesus never condemed anyone who was of a different belief. He only tried to teach what was good for us all. YOU are falling further and further away from what Jesus tried to teach. This is what I feel sorry about for you. Split Infinity

reply to post by MrXYZ


Where is this poll?

reply to post by SplitInfinity

I am starting to feel a bit sorry for you.

I don't suggest getting in that line, there's a multitude,.. multitude of people. Get in the love me line, there's like 2 people in that one.

you are quick to anger and last time I checked.

When have you seen me get angry?? What?

And what's thes KJV stuff all about? I just told another member in another thread today that he is bordering on idolatry for worshiping his KJV Bible.

Do you even know me?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

No...I don't know you. But I know people like you. You are not a Bad person. You are trying very hard to be a Good person and help others be Good People. That I respect.

What I don't respect is your obvious brushing off of FACTS. The things I have posted are Facts and should have NO BEARING on your FAITH. Yet you defend WRITTEN WORDS rather than defend their meanings. It is in the meanings of the words you read in the Bible that are Paramount...the lessons...the Analogies.

It is not important that a Biblical Story is a Reality. It IS important that people learn the lessons.
Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity

What I don't respect is your obvious brushing off of FACTS.

And exactly how does believing in Evolution improve the quality of your life over mine?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

What I don't respect is your obvious brushing off of FACTS.

And exactly how does believing in Evolution improve the quality of your life over mine?

What does that have to do with anything? Does knowing you have 2 kidneys improve your life? Who cares? That's not the point of a scientific theory?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

What I don't respect is your obvious brushing off of FACTS.

And exactly how does believing in Evolution improve the quality of your life over mine?

It doesn't. It is simply a FACT. This type of question by you is what I have been trying to tell you about as it pertains to your FAITH.

The Facts of Reality should have no bearing on your beliefs in Right and Wrong...Good and Bad and definitly no bearing on your FAITH. I...in no way...wish to challenge or degrade your FAITH. I am simply on a discusion board talking about FACTS.

It should not matter to you whether the Biblical Version of Adam and Eve is a FACT. The only thing that should matter to you is the lesson of the story. Jesus spoke very much like this...and in no way am I comparing myself with Jesus. He came to being and had before him the Old Testament was a the story of a Wrathful...Vengeful GOD...and in it's place...Jesus tought ...LOVE, COMPASSION, FORGIVENESS.

Jesus basically contradicted the Old Testament. He above all...taught Humanity the lesson...it is in a persons ACTIONS by which they are Judged. Not how much they prayed or how much they believed...but WHAT THEY DID AND HOW THEY TREATED OTHERS. It is in this where the words FACT and TRUTH seperate. It may be a TRUTH that a Man is following a written word as he proffesess his obligation to defend that written word because it is his belief and in the Old Testament....many Died in this fashion and they justified their actions by their Belief of the Truth of the written words of the Old Testament...but Jesus said....reguardless of what excuse the Man based what he had done by following the Truth of his beliefs of the Old Testaments written words....THE FACT OF HIS ACTIONS...OF THE SUFFERING AND DEATH HE CREATED IN THE NAME OF GOD BECAUSE HE BELIEVED THE WORDS OF THE BOOK AS THE TRUE WORDS OF GOD....HIS ACTIONS COULD NEVER BE JUSTIFIED....as he had taken this TRUTH and became a JUDGE of what was GODS RIGHT...that being...VENGENCE IS MINE SAITH THE LORD.

FACT should never be condemed or ignored as JESUS himself has stated...as Mary Magdalene was about to be stoned as a prostitute...THOSE WITHOUT SIN...CAST THE FIRST STONE. It was a FACT that Mary Magdalene was a Prostitute and it was a written TRUTH that the Old Testament had some very nasty laws dealing in such activities....yet....the FACT was that no one had the right to KILL HER reguardless of written Religion or Laws. Jesus knew that FACTS were not anything that challenged FAITH and TRUTHS were of little consequence for a person to have FAITH. If anything...a provable FACT only strengthens a person in that even knowing what the REALITY of something is...the FACT of that reality...and not just taking someones word or believing it from a Book...but seeing and proving and KNOWING it to be a FACT...makes a person one step closer to what JESUS wanted Humanity to be...UNDERSTANDING...LOVING...OPEN TO CONCEPTS...LOOKING BEYOND PETTY DIFFERENCES...HAVING THE STRENGTH TO FORGIVE...AND EVEN IN THE FACE OF CERTAIN DEATH...HAVING THE STRENGTH TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT.

I am not Religious...But I respect the FACTS of the GOODNESS and Harmony to the Human Condition that the teachings of Christ bring us. This will not change for me because I know the story of ADAM and EVE to be just a story. It does not matter. What matters is what I can take away from the story to become a better Man. To defend the Faith is not you or anyone elses job...it is whether or not the Faith is Good for people or not. I think it is good. FACTS do nothing to diminish what is important and that is the TEACHINGS and the LESSONS.
Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity

It doesn't. It is simply a FACT. This type of question by you is what I have been trying to tell you about as it pertains to your FAITH.

Do you realize I wasn't born a Christian?

Originally posted by MrXYZ

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

What I don't respect is your obvious brushing off of FACTS.

And exactly how does believing in Evolution improve the quality of your life over mine?

What does that have to do with anything? Does knowing you have 2 kidneys improve your life? Who cares? That's not the point of a scientific theory?

My point was, similar. Who cares what I believe? It doesn't change anyone's quality of life over another. It's irrelevant.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by MrXYZ

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

What I don't respect is your obvious brushing off of FACTS.

And exactly how does believing in Evolution improve the quality of your life over mine?

What does that have to do with anything? Does knowing you have 2 kidneys improve your life? Who cares? That's not the point of a scientific theory?

My point was, similar. Who cares what I believe? It doesn't change anyone's quality of life over another. It's irrelevant.

If everyone thought like that, we wouldn't have planes, wouldn't be able to cure diseases, would have sent someone to the moon, wouldn't have computers...

In reading this thread and the many posts, I just wanted to make an observation that so far this has been a really enlightening discussion. And unless I've missed something, each member has done a great job at keeping their different points of view professional, thus preventing this thread from turning into the emotional nightmare that plagued similar discussions of ATS in the past. Everyone has made outstanding posts on what they believe to be true or not true. It has been a pleasure, especially of late, to see a difference of opinion between adults not turn into a thread mined with T&C warnings by mods.

I may not believe what you believe, but at least I'm open to the possibility to that what you believe has merit to you and is important. There is always something to be learned when we debate with others; always something to redefine our beliefs, no matter what they are.

reply to post by MrXYZ

If everyone thought like that, we wouldn't have planes, wouldn't be able to cure diseases, would have sent someone to the moon, wouldn't have computers...

Most of the sciences that produced those things and feats were made by Creationists.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

If everyone thought like that, we wouldn't have planes, wouldn't be able to cure diseases, would have sent someone to the moon, wouldn't have computers...

Most of the sciences that produced those things and feats were made by Creationists.

You mean except for the Internet and the underlying programming language most computers use?

The guy who gave you the light bulb was an atheist too...as was Marie Curie, the inventor of nuclear energy

Paul Dirac, one of the inventors of quantum mechanics is an atheist too...

And Einstein clearly didn't believe in a personal god either...

Don't make me start a list of atheist scientists

The point is, it doesn't matter what those people believe personally..their main accomplishments were based on logic, scientific method, rationality, and objective evidence...NOT subjective or religious beliefs!

reply to post by MrXYZ


Why are you going off into red herrings? I don't really care about a pissing contest of who invented what? That's a silly debate. It's just name-dropping, it's irrelevant.

Even Jesus used parables/allegories to make a point. That's what was most predominant pre-Renaissance authors did (the Renaissance brought about literal word for word perspectives). Moses wrote Genesis in a shorthand parable /allegory to explain origins. The importance of the Adam & Eve section was how humankind (allegedly) became separated from God and a means to introduce the law of cause & effect which is the basic structure of harmatia (sin).

It shouldn't be a shocker if Adam & Eve isn't a literal word-for-word historical account of the all-mother and all-father of humankind. Chances are much higher that the Cardinal is correct than not.

Still, those who prefer absolute literal thinking today want a black-and-white historiographic dogma that provides a sense of security and understanding and these people will dismiss any claim that a section or two of the Holy Bible might not be literal.

Moses wasn't an eye-witness to the Creation event and activities in the Garden of Eden. Those details were reportedly (according to Moses) God-breathed to him, which in historical context of the language means the same as God-inspired. The vocabulary in context does not mean God-dictated, but rather inspired by prayer with God. I can pray to God and then write a poem to qualify as God-breathed within that historical cultural usage of that term. It might be useful for people to acknowledge that maybe not 100% of the Bible was written to be literal.

Though, I understand (and especially in light of others comments here) that opens a Pandora's box. Yet, even if 95% of the Bible were parables/metaphors/allegories (and I'm not saying that's the case or ratio), then, it doesn't matter because Truth comes from the direct personal relationship with Christ Jesus who is much, much bigger than the confines of a book.

Originally posted by MrXYZ

The guy who gave you the light bulb was an atheist too...as was Marie Curie, the inventor of nuclear energy

Marie Curie invented nuclear energy? I think Eistein would have said that was up to God,sorry but she researched radioactivity,at first her husband and Marie was so amazed by the beautiful glow of uranium they would sit by it at night and just stare at it.

In 1896 Henri Becquerel discovered that uranium salts emitted rays that resembled X-rays in their penetrating power. He demonstrated that this radiation, unlike phosphorescence, did not depend on an external source of energy, but seemed to arise spontaneously from uranium itself. Becquerel had, in fact, discovered radioactivity.

Curie decided to look into uranium rays as a possible field of research for a thesis.
en.wikipedia.org...

Further she lost her faith (she was Catholic) when her mother and sister died and became agnostic,which isn`t athiest.Traumatic experiences can affect peoples lives.

And Einstein clearly didn't believe in a personal god either...

"Personal" is the key word there

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings." www.godandscience.org...

Spinoza believed God exists and is abstract and impersonal.en.wikipedia.org...


Albert Einstein received instruction in both Christianity (at a Roman Catholic school) and Judaism (his family of origin). When interviewed by the Saturday Evening Post in 1929, Einstein was asked what he thought of Christianity.

"To what extent are you influenced by Christianity?"
"As a child I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene."
"Have you read Emil Ludwig’s book on Jesus?"
"Emil Ludwig’s Jesus is shallow. Jesus is too colossal for the pen of phrasemongers, however artful. No man can dispose of Christianity with a bon mot!"
"You accept the historical existence of Jesus?"
"Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life."
www.godandscience.org...

I don`t know about the others you listed but its neither here nor there anyway.

The point is, it doesn't matter what those people believe personally..their main accomplishments were based on logic, scientific method, rationality, and objective evidence...NOT subjective or religious beliefs!

Correct way to look at it imo whether someone has belief or not as far as science,it just doesn`t make sense then to claim many people as athiest when they are not,everyone is different.

You won`t find two Christians the same even in the same church, only that they share a common belief in Christ and the same can be said for everyone elses belief or non belief etc.

Personally (if at all possible?) I believe that science will eventually prove Gods existence even if that were to take millions or billions of years,though the way the human race is and the prophecies within the Bible I can`t see us lasting that long.

If he knows they didn't as opposed to he doesn't believe they did then he is saying he actually knows for certain which makes him the most all knowing person alive that has ever existed = complete idiot.

That's apart from a minister of religion not believing somethign he's a minster of which is like calling yourself a conservative and helping people have abortions or like calling yourself a homosexual and never having had homosexual sex, or calling yourself a pilot without ever havoing flown a plane. All these examples are ones of deceptive lying or or serious mental problem.

Originally posted by pacifier2012
If he knows they didn't as opposed to he doesn't believe they did then he is saying he actually knows for certain which makes him the most all knowing person alive that has ever existed = complete idiot.

That's apart from a minister of religion not believing somethign he's a minster of which is like calling yourself a conservative and helping people have abortions or like calling yourself a homosexual and never having had homosexual sex, or calling yourself a pilot without ever havoing flown a plane. All these examples are ones of deceptive lying or or serious mental problem.

A person can be a minister of religion and still think for themselves.

They can also be homosexual and yet never have had homosexual sex.

It's also possible to be conservative and still lean toward being pro-choice, with regards to abortion.

I can't disagree with your pilot anaolgy, so in fact only one of those examples might represent a "serious mental problem". All lying is deceptive.