On Tour In America & It's A Police State. No Doubt About It.

reply to post by camus154


I don't think people with your view understand what America is. It isn't just another country. It was the first of its kind. What was created was more than just the legal constructs in a constitution, it was the idea of self governance centered around liberty.

We are all human and as such we can expect to screw things up. The progression of the nation should always be towards freedom and prosperity not away from it. Sure, America may be 1000 times better than a million hell hole countries around the world, but we should not be comparing ourselves to the other nations of the world, but the ideals set forth in the creation of the country.

We sure as hell are not living up to those ideals today. Nor are we working to advance in that direction. Hell, we aren't even trying to get back some of what has already been lost. What we are doing is turning the nation more and more into what already exists in other places, and worse.

What you have is a car, we will call America. Driving it is an idiot politician.

You have people like me yelling at the driver "Hey, your going the wrong way, and now we have added 15 trillion miles (dollars) to our trip and we have lost hundreds of hours (freedoms)."

Your sitting in the back seat saying, "Hey! Stop whining. At least we aren't on a dirt road or haven't crashed yet."

This argument doesn't matter. We are all screwed beyond repair at this point anyway.

Originally posted by Wolf321
I don't think people with your view understand what America is. It isn't just another country. It was the first of its kind. What was created was more than just the legal constructs in a constitution, it was the idea of self governance centered around liberty.

We sure as hell are not living up to those ideals today. Nor are we working to advance in that direction. Hell, we aren't even trying to get back some of what has already been lost. What we are doing is turning the nation more and more into what already exists in other places, and worse.

What you don't understand is that the world is not the same place it was 200 years ago. Not even remotely. It's all well and good to go all stars and stripes and let's play the Founding Fathers game because clearly this country should be governed just like it was back in 1792.

You can play that game, sure. Constitutional lawyers like to play that game. So do middle class white people who listen to Rush Limbaugh.

But some of us live in reality. Some of us understand that the world has moved on, has become much, much smaller, much much more connected, much much more complex. The lofty ideals of our forefathers--while certainly still relevant in theory--simply do not address the complexity of the modern day world. Nor were they meant to. That's why the constitution is a living document.

And to those very ideals I say, America is still America. Show me where these ideals are truly being sacrificed and disparaged. Show me where real liberty has been lost. What, we get patted down at the airport? That's not a friggin' loss of liberty, and I sincerely don't think Thomas Jefferson would believe it was either. Are you kidding me? The forefathers would cream in their pants to have HALF the opportunities and freedoms we enjoy today. They came from a world where you could be persecuted by governments simply for what God you believed in. And you want to moan about how voluntary pat downs are some tremendous loss of rights?

Originally posted by camus154
But some of us live in reality. Some of us understand that the world has moved on, has become much, much smaller, much much more connected, much much more complex. The lofty ideals of our forefathers--while certainly still relevant in theory--simply do not address the complexity of the modern day world. Nor were they meant to. That's why the constitution is a living document.

The constitution is 'living document' only in the sense that we can add to it with the intent of maintaining freedom. We realized at some point that freedom wasn't being maintained in a self-governing nation if all adults weren't allowed to choose their representatives. We changed the constitution to reflect the need to ensure freedom. Any changes that are counter to freedom, are counter to the inherent purpose of the nations existence.

The forefathers would cream in their pants to have HALF the opportunities and freedoms we enjoy today. They came from a world where you could be persecuted by governments simply for what God you believed in. And you want to moan about how voluntary pat downs are some tremendous loss of rights?

Yes, I am sure the founders would be jumping with joy that a farmer couldn't sell raw milk without the feds swarming his farm guns drawn. I am sure they would love the idea that the government can stop a man from growing wheat to make bread for his family because in doing so he is affecting interstate commerce by not buying bread. I am sure they would love the reality of the government being able to spy and access your private records without a warrant because the government thinks you may be a potential terrorist because you chose to have the Gadsden flag as a bumper sticker. I am sure they would not be offended at all to see wheelchair bound old ladies and toddlers forced to strip and be felt up to ensure 'security' in order to travel. I am sure that they wouldn't mind that the government can regulate what type of guns and arms civilians can have while the standing army has no restrictions.

Yeah, we haven't lost a thing. The founders must be beaming in their graves.

Originally posted by Wolf321
The constitution is 'living document' only in the sense that we can add to it with the intent of maintaining freedom. We realized at some point that freedom wasn't being maintained in a self-governing nation if all adults weren't allowed to choose their representatives. We changed the constitution to reflect the need to ensure freedom. Any changes that are counter to freedom, are counter to the inherent purpose of the nations existence.

Well, hey-oh! Look at that. We have our own Constitutional lawyer right here

Yes, I am sure the founders would be jumping with joy that a farmer couldn't sell raw milk without the feds swarming his farm guns drawn. I am sure they would love the idea that the government can stop a man from growing wheat to make bread for his family because in doing so he is affecting interstate commerce by not buying bread. I am sure they would love the reality of the government being able to spy and access your private records without a warrant because the government thinks you may be a potential terrorist because you chose to have the Gadsden flag as a bumper sticker. I am sure they would not be offended at all to see wheelchair bound old ladies and toddlers forced to strip and be felt up to ensure 'security' in order to travel. I am sure that they wouldn't mind that the government can regulate what type of guns and arms civilians can have while the standing army has no restrictions.

Yeah, we haven't lost a thing. The founders must be beaming in their graves.

But you know what's funny? You could find any number of examples "back in the day" that would show similar lines being crossed. You think only modern day police forces have made mistakes or bended the law? Really?

And regarding your gun argument. Tell you what. You show me where an automatic machine gun that could mow down an entire room full of people was ever condoned back in 1792.

Hell, let's take this even further. Let's say the year is 3061. Let's say there exists the technology in small arms whereby a handgun can kill any person anywhere in the world with simply a voice command. You tell the gun who to kill, and it somehow pinpoints that person's location on the globe and somehow sends ordinance their way to kill them, no matter how far.

Since you're such a fife-tooting constitutionalist, clearly this type of weapon is protected under the 2nd amendment, right? I mean, even though the founding fathers could never have even CONCEIVED of such a weapon--or how such technology could complicate things or even be so obviously abused--this bad ass killing machine is our absolute BIRTHRIGHT to possess, yeah? Because otherwise, you know, our freedoms would be eroded and the founding fathers would be #ting in their graves at the insanity of it all. Never mind the world in which WE live is so fundamentally different than the world in which THEY constructed such ideologies.

Good point, guy. Clearly you're right

Originally posted by camus154
Tell you what. You show me where an automatic machine gun that could mow down an entire room full of people was ever condoned back in 1792.

In 1792, you could own a cannon with exploding balls. That's about the closest parallel I can provide. Go try getting your hands on a howitzer today.

2ETA: Heck, you can't even get the same NVG's and other non-weapons tech the military has.

Hell, let's take this even further. Let's say the year is 3061. Let's say there exists the technology in small arms whereby a handgun can kill any person anywhere in the world with simply a voice command. You tell the gun who to kill, and it somehow pinpoints that person's location on the globe and somehow sends ordinance their way to kill them, no matter how far.

Since you're such a fife-tooting constitutionalist, clearly this type of weapon is protected under the 2nd amendment, right? I mean, even though the founding fathers could never have even CONCEIVED of such a weapon--or how such technology could complicate things or even be so obviously abused--this bad ass killing machine is our absolute BIRTHRIGHT to possess, yeah? Because otherwise, you know, our freedoms would be eroded and the founding fathers would be #ting in their graves at the insanity of it all. Never mind the world in which WE live is so fundamentally different than the world in which THEY constructed such ideologies.

Yep. If the standing army can have it, the nations people should too.

Until a person infringes on someone else's rights, they should not have theirs infringed upon.

ETA: If everything went as it should, from our founding the nation would be progressing towards anarchy. The purest form of freedom is anarchy. Not to be confused with chaos or destruction. However, in order to reach the state of freedom in anarchy, humanity would have to progress first to the point where ever person understood right from wrong and only did right. Clearly humanity has also been in retrograde. This has been the root of the cause of the problems in the USA.

Creating our nation only laid out a path for humanity to progress, so our failure is only a symptom of a fatal disease affecting humanity.

Originally posted by Wolf321
In 1792, you could own a cannon with exploding balls. That's about the closest parallel I can provide. Go try getting your hands on a howitzer today.

Well, in that case, any citizen has a right to own a nuclear warhead.

No problems there, right? It's all about your personal liberties, guy.

reply to post by camus154


Ultimately yes. Although costs, logic and the inherit dangers to the owner of possession would likely keep 99.9999~ of people from having such.

Technology has long since outpaced humanity. At least in a weapons sense.

Originally posted by Wolf321
reply to post by camus154

 

I don't think people with your view understand what America is. It isn't just another country. It was the first of its kind. What was created was more than just the legal constructs in a constitution, it was the idea of self governance centered around liberty.

We are all human and as such we can expect to screw things up. The progression of the nation should always be towards freedom and prosperity not away from it. Sure, America may be 1000 times better than a million hell hole countries around the world, but we should not be comparing ourselves to the other nations of the world, but the ideals set forth in the creation of the country.

We sure as hell are not living up to those ideals today. Nor are we working to advance in that direction. Hell, we aren't even trying to get back some of what has already been lost. What we are doing is turning the nation more and more into what already exists in other places, and worse.

What you have is a car, we will call America. Driving it is an idiot politician.

You have people like me yelling at the driver "Hey, your going the wrong way, and now we have added 15 trillion miles (dollars) to our trip and we have lost hundreds of hours (freedoms)."

Your sitting in the back seat saying, "Hey! Stop whining. At least we aren't on a dirt road or haven't crashed yet."

This argument doesn't matter. We are all screwed beyond repair at this point anyway.

that pretty much sums up my feelings aswell. so many sheeple are willing to sit back and take the raping. who was it that said "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"?

The USA has become a Police State, and I'm indignant because of it.

There is no terrorism that wasn't created by various agencies of our government.

This government created terrorism was predicted back in the 1960's by government insiders who were putting two and two together when they listened to bits and pieces from those in the know.

This is all hokum, including 9-11

This does nothing but make this country a police state, and enrich those who manufacture the scanning and other devices used to make us minions of the state.

Originally posted by Hawking
No problems out here in West Texas. People seem to do what they want, when they want.

I've been pulled over a couple times here and the cops are reasonable and fair when they could have really nailed me (may just be because I'm white though).


My advice: Get out of places like DC, NY, LA, SF, etc.

Here in The Netherlands I have NEVER been pulled over...and I am white. I think you, and everybody who gave a star for your comment has lost touch on what is normal. People here are pulled over when the police have a reason for it.

Ever heared of 'The Keyturn' option when hiring office-space? That means that everything is prepared for the busines day, just open-up the frontdoor, sit yourself behind the desk and open-up your laptop...ready to go.

IMHO that is what the situation is in the US. Police, TSA and whatever is conditioned to check and all the detention-camps are in place, security camera's are being installed and link with all kinds of survailance software. The three letter agencies are prepared, manned and trained...and so on...and so on.

The only thing needed is the KEY to open-up the frontdoor.

If I am currently living in a police state, then it is nowhere near as bad as I imagined it. Matter of fact, my life hasn't changed one bit.

While alot of civil liberties are quickly being eroded in the USA i don't believe it is a police state yet. When the term police state is used i tend to picture North Korea or Zimbabwe. Both leave alot of room to fall still to be had in the USA.

Our grand old experiment in democracy is a "fear state" Our Government wants us the "sheeple" to fear everything. They want us to fear, Muslims, terrorist's, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, China, N.Korea, Russia, Syria, Mexican Drug cartels, Mexicans in general, blacks, browns, the police, the sheriff, the F.B.I, the C.I.A., TSA, IRS, they want us in fear of "real corn" gas, or lack thereof, leafy greens, growing our own food, oil, they want us to be "sheeple" calm in-fear sheep. But most of all they want us to fear each other & them. We can only do something about "one "of those two. Never in my 49 years have I seen it this bad. They want the white man, the black man, the brown man, the yellow man all in fear of each other At each others throats.

The wedge of division is driven deeper and deeper into the minds of us all on a dailey basis. MSM, Movies, Music, cartoons, etc,etc,etc. We The Sheeple, fall for it hook,line, sinker....each & everytime. Fear driven security is not being secure.. What can we do about it? Treat each other with some damn respect and humanity, what a concept , treating each other as we want to be treated, chuck your t.v. out the damn window, change the station on your radio, to one that actually plays music, and shut out the BS, Seems like a massive task, does it not?

No news is good news. At least for a little while. Say hello to some one you don't know today, treat them as you would want to be treated, and see how your day goes. Hell, it might do you some good. Can't hurt.

reply to post by zatara

'A Turnkey Totalitarian State'

Read the April 1st posting...though if you were to read any of the others, it would pretty much be just as good.

nanu nanu prisoners

everyone can feel the change? but the humans can't do any thing about?

if a military force started to appear in the streets taking humans away to never be seen again, would that be the change you American humans are talking about?

definition of security is only through scum politicians, nanny state! they know what is best for you and that is sthu and stay home.

Originally posted by Domo1
reply to post by Trublbrwing

 

What Hillbillies? So far in this thread I've been called 'Dumber', a 'Hillbillie' and 'Sport' because I disagree with the OP. Grow up.

Do you guys have any thoughts on what actually needs to change, or are you just interested in complaining? What do you propose we do, take out all checkpoints?

It couldn't "hoit" to take out check points. Nothing says police state like a checkpoint.

reply to post by poloblack


And there is the answer to this posting I think.

Sounds like this guy is traveling to places with high, or a perceived high crime rate, therefore there should be escalated security.

Also you are talking about national attractions, and places that lots of people are expected to be. I certainly would hope that there is more security. I know there hasn't been a terrorist attack (both domestic and international) in a long time (on US soil). But that doesn't mean it's impossible. Suicide bombers are always targeting places with lots of people around.

I for one am OK with escalated security at places like airports, and national attractions. When it starts to affect my day to day life is when I will get upset about it.

reply to post by MRuss
First, I have to agree that our country has been turned into a Police State. Last year my family and I took a road trip across the USA from that went from Southern California through Texas to Miami, up the Coast to Virginia and then West again taking us thru Ohio, Colorado, Nevada to Santa Cruz and then south to our home again. There were Check Points, Military with dogs, City, State and Federal Law Enforcement roving their patches of highways like some kind of Highway Pirates. We are white and drive a late model Rolls which made our passage easier than most, as I saw many minorities pulled over and being put through ropes we were not and the facts is we were well prepared for the worst, including the law firm we now keep on retainer just in case one of the Highway Thugs decided someone in a Rolls could be a drug or arms trafficer or an easy touch for a fine.

So, I agree with the OP and you who criticize him and made fun of what he had to say can go take a long walk off a short pier because we are living in a Police State and I don't like it either.

reply to post by MRuss

I think this definitely falls into the "could be worse" category. For instance, when I visited the Statue of Liberty last year, it did take a long time to get in, and it WAS unusual to see NYPD with machine guns; that aside, I walked past those officers with about 50 high schools kids from Trenton, NJ, and no one bothered us once.

In a true police state, we would have been lined up against a fence, searched, beaten, or worse. So, while I share concerns that we could BECOME a police state -- and agree that some measure (such as protecting the Wall Street bulls' balls) are silly -- we all can wander fairly freely in this land -- even in New York.

reply to post by MRuss


Thanks for bringing your experience Out

Ill will tell you my Brief Story ....

The Effects of the 911 Event Here where I Am From St Lawrence Country & Franklin County
in which Both are on the Edge of Canada Divided between the St Lawrence Seaway
The Passage to the Great Lakes ...

The Pressure Is Greater all because of Security

State Troopers and Boarder Patrols are Here 3 fold !! Everywhere Boarder Patrol are around 40 to 50 Miles from the Boarder as in the Border of Mexico that has the Bigger Problem..

I remember when you can go across the Bridge to Canada with Ease...
Now The Mohawks are in constant Harassment Crossing the Boarder as the have Dual Citizenship..
and there is a Island Called Cornwall Island that is Mohawk Territory that the International Bridge Is Split into two Parts and Canada side uses as their Checkpoint ... The Harassment is Phenomenal..

I remember When there was NO NEED for PASSPORTS!!!! to go to Canada or the USA

I remember before 911 I can Go to the Eisenhower Lock's and Walk anywhere! I chose
Now its Cut off restricted in Certain Places

I remember that Boarder Patrol & Custom's was less Strict
when Canadians could go to a local Town by Boat and eat at a Restaurant with out going through Customs

I I dont remember before 911 that The Boarder Never Had a Problem !!


well Except ....

For Cigs and Alcohol Running

That ...
and If anyone Seen!!! the Movie Called " Frozen River "

Frozen River (2008)
www.imdb.com...

well... Thats around my Area

It not as Severe of what the Movie Portrays


Now it Like a Dam Police State Here ...

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
- Ben Franklin = February 17, 1775

HQ!! Frozen River (2008) Trailer


Crossing the Line in VT Next Door to East Northern NY



ATS....... Please see the Video Below Very Very Interesting !
you will then see what Im Talking about...!


Militarization of the Canada-U.S. Border ((( CBC News )))