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There is NO One-Size-Fits-All religion.

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posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 08:34 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60


but the reworked history propelled them into a frenzy of cleansing and offensive war that the rulers really believed this time they could pull off. Their hopes were dashed by the coming of Alexander, and them came the hope for the end of the world which we are still suffering under to this day.

You're more familiar with the Machabean period and the Hasmonean dynasty than I am. The Jews got their two Messiahs who led in the vengeance attack against Greeks and Hellenism (John Hyrcanus and Alexander Jannaeus).

It's interesting to note, about Jamnia, and the Greek school type gathering of Tannaim(rabbinic sages) there.

In Roman times, the city was known as Iamnia, also spelled Jamnia. It was bequeathed by King Herod upon his death to his sister Salome. Upon her death it passed to Caesar Augustus who managed it as a private imperial estate, a status it was to maintain for at least a century.
en.wikipedia.org...

Remember Augustus before becoming emperor, was the General that Herod allied with and fought for with his mercenaries. That estate(school) became headquarters for Mishna creation.

I forgot what point I was trying to make.

The Jews got their Messiahs, Alexander Jannaeus, John Hyrcanus, Bar Kokhba(supported by Rabbi Akiva of Jamnia school). It's over, done, finished. Any new Messiah will be after vengeance not only on Greece and Rome, but on the whole World. Do you think Yahweh will go back to being only a minor tribal god? Nope, he's tasted the sweet power of World domination already. The Torah and post exile prophets are the ammunition, the power base, the critical mass nuclear reactor, driving monotheists to the harm of the World. The progressive steps of Yahweh-alone are escalatory.

What can people do? Just walk away. Leave Yahweh alone. Don't attempt to save him. Just walk away.


what kind of god was he? A candid appraisal of those texts makes it hard to conclude that he was what many contemporary Abrahamic believers would like to think he was: a morally modern god, a god of universal compassion. If you had to give a simple answer to the simple question that has hovered over this whole exposition— Was the Abrahamic god a god of peace and tolerance at the moment he became ruler of the universe?— it would be no.

Wright, Robert (2009-05-20). The Evolution of God (Kindle Locations 3141-3144). Hachette Book Group. Kindle Edition.

edit on 14-4-2012 by pthena because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 09:00 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60


Saved from Sacrifice: A Theology of the Cross, by Mark S. Heim.

I put that in my wish list. I've already read a couple of Girard's lecture papers a couple of months ago.



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 09:06 PM
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reply to post by pthena
 


Speaking of Bar Kokhba, I read somewhere that he restored sacrifices at the ruins of the temple for a period of time, but I haven't been able to find that information again. I hoped you might recall something.



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 09:38 PM
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reply to post by cloudyday
 



During the last revolt of the Jews against the Romans in 132–135 CE, Simon bar Kokhba and Rabbi Akiva wanted to rebuild the Temple, but bar Kokhba's revolt failed and the Jews were banned from Jerusalem by the Roman Empire. The emperor Julian failed to have the Temple rebuilt in 363 CE.
wikipedia Jerusalem Temple

Between the destruction (70 AD) and the banning of Jews from Jerusalem, there seems to have been a temple to Jupiter and Venus on the temple site.

The revolt seems to have actually led to independence for three years, including minting temple coinage. Perhaps they could actually have done a Hanukkah type cleansing of the Jupiter temple and used it for sacrifice. It's not beyond the realm of possibility, since they had a Messiah on hand. I don't know.


The second Jewish rebellion took place 60 years after the first and re-established an independent state lasting three years. For many Jews of the time, this turn of events was heralded as the long hoped for Messianic Age. The excitement was short-lived, however; after a brief span of glory, the revolt was eventually crushed by the Roman legions.
en.wikipedia.org...

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edit on 14-4-2012 by pthena because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 15 2012 @ 08:03 AM
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reply to post by pthena
 


Thanks, I wish I could find where I read about the sacrifices being restored for three years under Bar Kokhba, because it reminded me of the prophecies that we associate with the end of the world today. Of course it was on a website and the author of that website may have had an agenda.
edit on 15-4-2012 by cloudyday because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 15 2012 @ 08:22 AM
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reply to post by pthena
 



Christianity as we know it does not understand that God is as much greater than Yahweh, as the Earth is greater than a single stone temple. Only the heretics like Marcion and some of the Gnostics understood it. Jesus died for the Jews, so that they could abandon Yahweh and Torah, and so Gentiles could be saved from the eternal seething hatred of Yahweh. 99.9% of Christians don't appreciate Jesus at all.

You may take this as theory, to me it's fact, based on experience. my psychopathic temperament is still not as great as that of Jesus.

It's fact to me as well..
thanks for your thoughtful description. I only wish more people could understand it; the world-to-come would be here right now if only .... if only....
*sigh*
Brightest Blessings, friend!



posted on Apr, 15 2012 @ 08:25 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



I did get a bit into the W. James book (free Kindle) but find the archaic language a bit of a barrier

Absolutely it is like reading in another language almost...
I have to re-read sentences frequently. The quotations he has inserted, though, are much easier to read, and they are the
guts of the matter. How other people describe their experiences...

but one can get the hang of it with continued practice and effort. His points are just so good!!...imo



posted on Apr, 15 2012 @ 09:39 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Any books teaching there were two Isaiah's. But it's settled already, Jesus isn't the ultimate Truth for him. Jesus said they were the same Isaiah.

I can't make him believe Jesus is the Truth.
I think there were 14 contributors to what we call Isaiah, which is basically a compilation, much like Ignatius is probably a compilation of a dozen or so writers, even though there probably was someone actually named, Ignatius.
I don't think your argument about Jesus validating a single writer is very compelling. It just looks like another one of your many "proof" texts that seem to be relics of a by-gone era when people thought of the Bible as a single book and all parts can be used interchangeably to "prove" some interpretation of a totally unrelated other part.
You quoted John 12:39, which according to the NetBible translation is not Jesus talking, but the narrator of John, where Jesus is only quoting Isaiah (or, more likely, Jesus said none of it).

Although Jesus had performed so many miraculous signs before them, they still refused to believe in him, so that the word of Isaiah the prophet would be fulfilled. He said, “Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” For this reason they could not believe, because again Isaiah said,
“He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their heart,
so that they would not see with their eyes
and understand with their heart,
and turn to me, and I would heal them.”

Isaiah said these things because he saw Christ’s glory, and spoke about him.


You seemed to be resting the crux of your argument on the authority of Jesus validating somehow in his own words the saying of the name Isaiah to mean a person rather than a scroll, where the reality is that these were not the quoted words of Jesus, so your argument falls on its face.
Now the writer of this passage of John I quoted does seem to speak of Isaiah, not as a book, but as a person, so there is an argument there. Most likely that was a convention, where you spoke of prophecies as being given to the person the scroll in which it is found is named after, which seems to be the case among the Gospel writers. I doubt that the writer of John meant to mention the prophecy in this way in order to make a case for there being only a single author of Isaiah, and more likely, like I said, was only following a convention in use at the time of the writing of John.
edit on 15-4-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 15 2012 @ 10:01 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Not even close. Those were 3rd and 4th century pseudo-graphical books.

Hello!!!!
You can't have it both ways!
You make an argument on other threads to explain the context of a NT passage by saying something like "that was written to refute, or to counter false teachings then current, that were propagated by Gnostics".
So it seems to me that, according to that sort of argument, somehow the teachings existed, and probably in written versions, before certain books of the NT were written.
Now you seem to be saying that, no, there were no Gnostic writings until much later.
edit on 15-4-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 15 2012 @ 10:05 AM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by jmdewey60
 



I did get a bit into the W. James book (free Kindle) but find the archaic language a bit of a barrier

Absolutely it is like reading in another language almost...
I have to re-read sentences frequently. The quotations he has inserted, though, are much easier to read, and they are the
guts of the matter. How other people describe their experiences...

but one can get the hang of it with continued practice and effort. His points are just so good!!...imo


Whenever I read books written from that period I find myself wishing people wrote like that today. I haven't read too much from that period, but I always feel that way. I'm not sure why I like it.
edit on 15-4-2012 by cloudyday because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 15 2012 @ 10:39 AM
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reply to post by cloudyday


Of course it was on a website and the author of that website may have had an agenda.

I found an article on the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews website.


Stand for Israel: Bar Kokhba
The revolution, inspired in part by the Hasmonean Dynasty, was initially successful. Practicing guerilla warfare, the Jewish forces recaptured many towns and villages, including Jerusalem. The Romans were taken by surprise, and attempts to suppress the rebellion failed. Coins were minted with the phrase "The Freedom of Israel." Animal sacrifices were resumed, though not at the Temple; Rabbi Akiva led the Sanhedrin (Jewish Supreme Court), and Bar Kokhba established himself as Nasi (prince.)

No source is cited.

Here's a better source: Reprinted with permission from From Text to Tradition: A History of Second Temple & Rabbinic Judaism (Ktav). By Lawrence H. Schiffman, Professor of Hebrew and Judaic Studies at New York University. The whole article is a pretty good read.

The Bar Kochba Revolt
The war began as a guerilla struggle against Rome in 132 C.E. Within a short time it had spread throughout the country, and the rebels took Jerusalem, which had not been heavily fortified by the Romans. It is possible that sacrifices were now reinsti­tuted and that work was begun on rebuilding the sanctuary. From the coins Bar Kokhba struck we know of his high priest, Eleazar, who must have taken the lead in efforts to reestablish sacrificial worship. Here we see a reflection of the ancient concept of two messiahs, a lay and a priestly figure, prominent in the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs and in certain Qumran scrolls.

edit on 15-4-2012 by pthena because: (no reason given)

edit on 15-4-2012 by pthena because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 15 2012 @ 10:43 AM
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reply to post by pthena
 

I put that in my wish list. I've already read a couple of Girard's lecture papers a couple of months ago.

If by "wish list" you mean your Amazon list, then you would have been to the book's page on the site, and could very well have read as much as I have so far, by way of the preview. I did not use the preview but mainly looked into who Girard was before deciding to buy the book. So you are probably further along in this thought process than I am.
The author, Meim, draws on Girard's work, but claims to put his own twist on it in his own book.
Heim has a style of persuasion that works pretty well where you find yourself in agreement before he even presents his main thesis. And he also does his book in a good scholarly style of presenting the various options outside his own pet solution, plus presenting the reason why there should be a solution in the first place.



posted on Apr, 15 2012 @ 10:53 AM
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reply to post by pthena
 

You're more familiar with the Machabean period and the Hasmonean dynasty than I am.
That was based on study I did 25 years ago, and obviously I need to go back into all that again, and there are nice Kindle versions of the works of Josephus which makes it more convenient than dragging my books out.
And like you put in your post in the way of links, seems a good place to jump off in that direction.
What I was talking about is ideas that I actually picked up from you (on Ezra) a long time ago, combined with things I have been reading more lately which are studies into the deuteronomic editing of the OT type scriptures and why.



posted on Apr, 15 2012 @ 11:10 AM
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Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by cloudyday


Of course it was on a website and the author of that website may have had an agenda.

I found an article on the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews website.


Stand for Israel: Bar Kokhba
The revolution, inspired in part by the Hasmonean Dynasty, was initially successful. Practicing guerilla warfare, the Jewish forces recaptured many towns and villages, including Jerusalem. The Romans were taken by surprise, and attempts to suppress the rebellion failed. Coins were minted with the phrase "The Freedom of Israel." Animal sacrifices were resumed, though not at the Temple; Rabbi Akiva led the Sanhedrin (Jewish Supreme Court), and Bar Kokhba established himself as Nasi (prince.)

No source is cited.

Here's a better source: Reprinted with permission from From Text to Tradition: A History of Second Temple & Rabbinic Judaism (Ktav). By Lawrence H. Schiffman, Professor of Hebrew and Judaic Studies at New York University.

The Bar Kochba Revolt
The war began as a guerilla struggle against Rome in 132 C.E. Within a short time it had spread throughout the country, and the rebels took Jerusalem, which had not been heavily fortified by the Romans. It is possible that sacrifices were now reinsti­tuted and that work was begun on rebuilding the sanctuary. From the coins Bar Kokhba struck we know of his high priest, Eleazar, who must have taken the lead in efforts to reestablish sacrificial worship. Here we see a reflection of the ancient concept of two messiahs, a lay and a priestly figure, prominent in the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs and in certain Qumran scrolls.

edit on 15-4-2012 by pthena because: (no reason given)


Thanks, it reminded me of the Daniel 70 weeks prophecy, but I suppose Daniel was written after the time of Antiochus IV and his 70 weeks described those events. Too bad the author of Daniel didn't make that more explicit to avoid future confusion.
edit on 15-4-2012 by cloudyday because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 15 2012 @ 11:19 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60


What I was talking about is ideas that I actually picked up from you (on Ezra) a long time ago,

The Ezra project I had was based on an observation and a question. There are these prophesies about a return, but wait. Didn't all that returning from "Babylonian Captivity" already happen? Why yes, they did, under Ezra, by permission of the Persian Empire. How did that turn out?"

Answer: They broke up marriages, cast people out. Depopulated Jerusalem so harshly that they had to hold a lottery in order to force people from the villages to move into Jerusalem.

Question: If that's how it turned out under Persian permission, is it likely to be any better under British-American imperial permission?

Answer: Not bloody likely!!!



posted on Apr, 15 2012 @ 11:50 AM
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reply to post by cloudyday
 



Whenever I read books written from that period I find myself wishing people wrote like that today. I haven't read too much from that period, but I always feel that way. I'm not sure why I like it.

Me, too!!
And so, when I write (not here because no one would read it) I do often use that sort of language and syntax. I think it relates back to the evolution point of our society. In that book, James is talking about people from the second half of the nineteenth century (and earlier -- some from hundreds of years earlies).....I wish modern English was still treated with that kind of respect...
even though some of his sentences are 8-10 lines long, and I do have to go back and 'rearrange' them to get the point more clearly...but to make it pertinent to our topic, when he was writing, over 100 years ago, there were already people exploring the very same things some folks on this forum call "new-age-hippy-love-BS" .

Sometimes I have to remind myself that most people who have not done advanced or in-depth study of the topic don't know the things I do, which I did not know before either....
point being: Every couple of generations, things are 'forgotten' or 'dismissed', and then re-emerge as if brand new.

Which is one of the mysteries of the mind, to me.....even if one has had zero exposure to any of those older beliefs or thoughts, they can 'come up with it' themselves, seemingly from NOWHERE...
that was how my journey started as a teenager.....
it seemed out of the blue. I had never been taught about 'nirvana' or 'soul evolution' at all, but it just was in my head.
Strange.

Cosmic consciousness? Collective consciousness? Genetic memory? All of those things are what keep my faith alive. There is MORE than we can see and MORE than what we think of as 'common knowledge'. Hopefully one day it WILL be common knowledge...and then all this arguing will be seen as completely asinine, outdated folly.



posted on Apr, 15 2012 @ 02:02 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



"that was written to refute, or to counter false teachings then current, that were propagated by Gnostics".


That's why it pays to actually read what people say. Collossians was written to address Gnostic heresy, I never said it was written "to address Gnostic pseudo-graphical gospels". You must read someone's words in their entirety. When you just scan for a word or phrase to criticize you most likely will completely miss the context of what they said and run with that which results in theses errors time and time again.

Stop scanning posts for something to critique and then straw manning their actual position. It's absurd.



posted on Apr, 15 2012 @ 03:57 PM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
...
Sometimes I have to remind myself that most people who have not done advanced or in-depth study of the topic don't know the things I do, which I did not know before either....
point being: Every couple of generations, things are 'forgotten' or 'dismissed', and then re-emerge as if brand new.

Which is one of the mysteries of the mind, to me.....even if one has had zero exposure to any of those older beliefs or thoughts, they can 'come up with it' themselves, seemingly from NOWHERE...
that was how my journey started as a teenager.....
it seemed out of the blue. I had never been taught about 'nirvana' or 'soul evolution' at all, but it just was in my head.
Strange.

Cosmic consciousness? Collective consciousness? Genetic memory? All of those things are what keep my faith alive. There is MORE than we can see and MORE than what we think of as 'common knowledge'. Hopefully one day it WILL be common knowledge...and then all this arguing will be seen as completely asinine, outdated folly.


What you said reminded me of the Great Awakening and all those similar spiritual revivals that seemed to happen over and over again in history. Like it says in Ecclesiastics "nothing is new under the sun".

What was the Great Awakening? :
The Great Awakening was a period of great revivalism that spread throughout the colonies in the 1730s and 1740s. It deemphasized the importance of church doctrine and instead put a greater importance on the individual and their spiritual experience.
Why did the Great Awakening Occur? :
The Great Awakening arose at a time when man in Europe and the American colonies were questioning the role of the individual in religion and society. It began at the same time as the Enlightenment which emphasized logic and reason and stressed the power of the individual to understand the universe based on scientific laws. Similarly, individuals grew to rely more on a personal approach to salvation than church dogma and doctrine.

Great Awakening
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posted on Apr, 15 2012 @ 04:02 PM
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reply to post by cloudyday
 


That was the first great awakening, the second was the Charismatic awakening, and we are on the precipice of the third, the next Generation is the Joshua Generation that has been given the Keys of David.

It's the "latter rain" spoken of, 3 Awakenings prior to His triumphal return.


1st; Guys like Johnathan Edwards
2nd: Guys like Charles Finney, Charles H. Spurgeon
3rd: Guys like Dutch Sheets, Damon Thompson
edit on 15-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 15 2012 @ 05:24 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

I never said it was written "to address Gnostic pseudo-graphical gospels"

So?
I didn't say you did.
But you want us to believe the Gnostics waited 200 years before they wrote anything.




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