It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

There is NO One-Size-Fits-All religion.

page: 6
7
<< 3  4  5    7  8  9 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 06:08 PM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



I understood that, but see no correlation with the verse you posted and underlined and how that relates to Christians except by our words crowns will be won or lost, there is no condemnation hanging in the balances though.


So you're saying that doesn't apply to "christians"...

Doesn't beieng "christian" imply his words are always correct?

Yet you seem to prefer paul...

You believe what you say does not matter because you're saved either way?


edit on 13-4-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 06:11 PM
link   
reply to post by Akragon
 


Here, explaining the 2nd "rule" of hermeneutics:



A second crucial law of biblical hermeneutics is that a verse or passage must be interpreted historically, grammatically, and CONTEXTUALLY. Historical interpretation refers to understanding the culture, background, and situation which prompted the text. Grammatical interpretation is recognizing the rules of grammar and nuances of the Hebrew and Greek languages and applying those principles to the understanding of a passage. Contextual interpretation involves always taking the surrounding context of a verse/passage into consideration when trying to determine the meaning.


Biblical Hermaneutics

Example:

Taking OT laws given to Levite priests who had the duty of serving in the temple and applying them to Gentile Christians.


edit on 13-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 06:14 PM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Why would any of that apply to that verse... It doesn't specify who he was talking to...

It could have been a crowd of various people not just jews...


edit on 13-4-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 06:25 PM
link   

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



I understood that, but see no correlation with the verse you posted and underlined and how that relates to Christians except by our words crowns will be won or lost, there is no condemnation hanging in the balances though.


So you're saying that doesn't apply to "christians"...


In what sense? Yes and no. Christians won't be at the same judgment as Jews who aren't converted the Christianity. Jews at the GWT will be judged by their words, some Jews will come to Christ though. The church was still a "mystery" at that time Christ was speaking.

On the other hand, Christians will also be held responsible for our words when we are judged at the Bhema seat. Rewards will be won or lost by our testimony. So in a sense yes, and in a sense no, the Word has to be "rightly divided", if it's not silliness results. That's why there are rules of interpretation. 99% of the time when someone attacks the Bible for "contradictions" they didn't follow one of the rules of interpretation.


Doesn't beieng "christian" imply his words are always correct?


No implication, they are always correct, He is the Word made flesh. But not all are applicable to Christians.


Yet you seem to prefer paul...


Paul received revelation for the church, it was hid from the eyes of the OT prophets and didn't get birthed until Pentecost after Christ's ascension. Thee was no revelation of it until then. Musterion in the Greek means something different than they way we use "Mystery" in the English. It means in Greek "something previously hidden until now is being revealed", not some "hard to decipher enigmatic thing that takes careful study to get right".

The mystery (Musterion) of the church wasn't revealed until after Pentecost.


You believe what you say does not matter because you're saved either way?



No, absolutely not. Our words matter, and our actions matter as well. We cannot be saved unless we confess Him before men, or if we deny Him before men He will deny us before His Father. Our words as well as our deeds and even our motives for doing the right things will be examined with "fire" and what type of work they are will be revealed.

They matter all right.



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 06:29 PM
link   

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Why would any of that apply to that verse... It doesn't specify who he was talking to...

It could have been a crowd of various people not just jews...



We do know who He was NOT speaking to.

It wasn't Christians, the church wasn't birthed yet, that came at Pentecost. But some principles carry over that never change, specifically our actions and words matter when we are judged, with the lost at the GWTJ or the redeemed at the JSOC.

But those judgments are in two locations (Earth/heaven) and at minimum 1,000 years apart.

And sure, there could be gentiles there as well, there will be many gentiles at the GWT judgment.

Remember context. The church "Ekklesia" wasn't born yet, and was a "musterion" hid from the eyes of the OT prophets.

After Pentecost when it was revealed it needed doctrine to follow, that's why Paul, Peter, John, James, and Jude are so important to us. We're members of the "Ekklesia". Their revelation from Christ is vital.


edit on 13-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 06:43 PM
link   

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Why would any of that apply to that verse... It doesn't specify who he was talking to...

It could have been a crowd of various people not just jews...



We do know who He was NOT speaking to.

It wasn't Christians, the church wasn't birthed yet, that came at Pentecost. But some principles carry over that never change, specifically our actions and words matter when we are judged, with the lost at the GWTJ or the redeemed at the JSOC.

But those judgments are in two locations (Earth/heaven) and at minimum 1,000 years apart.

And sure, there could be gentiles there as well, there will be many gentiles at the GWT judgment.

Remember context. The church "Ekklesia" wasn't born yet, and was a "musterion" hid from the eyes of the OT prophets.

After Pentecost when it was revealed it needed doctrine to follow, that's why Paul, Peter, John, James, and Jude are so important to us. We're members of the "Ekklesia". Their revelation from Christ is vital.


edit on 13-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)


None of these scriptures were written close to the actual events...

And doesn't pentacost come every year? How can you assume when this "church" was established when both documents were written over 100 years later?



No implication, they are always correct, He is the Word made flesh. But not all are applicable to Christians.


Interesting contradiction...

You realize you've basically said here, his words only apply when they're convienent... You know that right...



edit on 13-4-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 08:13 PM
link   

Originally posted by wildtimes
We are all different, unique. And to me, this reinforces my belief that every individual person has to discover for himself what his spirituality is all about; and also must consider why one or another "faith" seems 'right', and others seem 'wrong.'


I wonder if anybody has tested converts to various religious faiths for common personality traits?

Also people born into a particular religious faith can interpret that faith differently to suit their personality without converting to a different faith.



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 08:14 PM
link   
reply to post by Akragon
 



And doesn't pentacost come every year? How can you assume when this "church" was established when both documents were written over 100 years later?


Pentecost when the church was born, when then 120 were in the upper room and the Holy Spirit fell and indwelled them the first time, birthing the church.

Acts chapter 2. (birth of the church)



You realize you've basically said here, his words only apply when they're convienent... You know that right...


I said nothing of the sort, go back and read what I linked and highlighted in red. And apply that to my answer.


edit on 13-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 08:20 PM
link   
reply to post by cloudyday
 



I wonder if anybody has tested converts to various religious faiths for common personality traits?


I'd assume no, the same God made us all and gifted us all differently. But what interests me, is if people who enter cults are people who have been abused emotionally before and they prey on those folks, of if it's a reaction to the cult indoctrination that makes them scared to leave the church. I dunno, but when Christian counselors get them out there is a lot of therapy that needs done.



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 09:00 PM
link   

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by cloudyday
 



I wonder if anybody has tested converts to various religious faiths for common personality traits?


I'd assume no, the same God made us all and gifted us all differently. But what interests me, is if people who enter cults are people who have been abused emotionally before and they prey on those folks, of if it's a reaction to the cult indoctrination that makes them scared to leave the church. I dunno, but when Christian counselors get them out there is a lot of therapy that needs done.


In some ways, religions seek to change the way members think and act. Meditation is similar to self-hypnosis. Monasteries are similar to cults. When is it good and when is it bad?



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 10:55 PM
link   
reply to post by wildtimes


I would love it if this were a 'reading club' --- of every text available besides the Bible in any translation except the ORIGINAL, faithfully executed and presented IN THE ACTUAL ORDER THEY WERE WRITTEN.

There was a Bible printed in 1975 which attempted to order the texts in order of writing.


The Bible in Order
A feat of modern biblical scholarship, The Bible in Order represents an exciting and radically new concept of the Bible that should prove invaluable to scholars and students of the Bible alike. Using the text of The Jerusalem Bible, editor Joseph Rhymer has arranged the books in the order in which they were originally written (and not as they have come down to us through the centuries). Through this new arrangement, the reader is better able to appreciate how the Bible was written and to trace the development of the religious experience which stimulates it. If we are to understand the books written over a thousand years of history and realize some connection and progression inside of them, we shall do it - postulates Rhymer - unless we meet the books against the historical background of the ancient world at the time each was written. To this end, he furnishes a helpful Commentary and, where necessary, explains in detail the reason for dividing some of the books into more than one piece.... In sum, here is an intriguing and eminently useful tool for anyone at all interested in the Bible and biblical theology. --- from book's dustjacket

I saw it once in a library, back when it was brand new. I didn't know where to buy such a thing. Maybe I should have asked the Librarian. A few years later, The Reese Chronological Bible, edited by Edward Reese (1980) came out. I thought it would be the same sort of arrangement. Sadly, I was mistaken, it was arranged in the order that the events supposedly transpired. But at least that meant I had something to give away when I heard a poor Christian bemoaning the lack of a study Bible.



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 11:37 PM
link   
reply to post by wildtimes


Hope you're enjoying the reads.....
apparently you are.

Mixed, ya know?

Reading along,
check . . .
yeah, that's it,
tell it Bob! (Robert Wright)

Then I get to the chapter on true Deutero-Isaiah monotheism at it's best and highest, click one of the references, Isaiah 49. I start reading that, recognize many favorite Christian verses, but then . . .

The paroxysms start . ..

the violent writhing . . .

while silently screaming . . .
"Nooooo!
Can't people see it???

hundreds of years of reading it ...
the triumphalism, the dominionism
New World Order!!


really?...

happily ever after?...

after I'm forced to eat my own flesh?
drink my own blood?
lick the dust under the feet of Yahweh's favored tribe??

This is the light to the Gentiles?
This is the best that monotheism has to offer?"
. . .
nausea... depression ...collapse ...
------------------------------------------------
that's what you get when a minor bronze-age tribal god gets elevated to One and Only, Alone
------------------------------------------------
Then I straighten up, wash my face, and calmly remark, "Well at least some one is telling it in commonly understood language, so that others may understand. That's good."

So yes, enjoying it immensely.


edit on 13-4-2012 by pthena because: (no reason given)

edit on 13-4-2012 by pthena because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 11:51 PM
link   
reply to post by pthena
 



Deutero-Isaiah


I love the Holy Spirit. He knew every heresy that would ever arise in human history and has pre-emtively addressed it in the Bible. There were not 2 Isaiahs. Jesus confirms in the gospels the same Isaiah wrote the entire book of Isiah. It saves a crap-ton of scholarly work in a couple verses.

Want to know where?



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 11:54 PM
link   

Originally posted by cloudyday

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by cloudyday
 



I wonder if anybody has tested converts to various religious faiths for common personality traits?


I'd assume no, the same God made us all and gifted us all differently. But what interests me, is if people who enter cults are people who have been abused emotionally before and they prey on those folks, of if it's a reaction to the cult indoctrination that makes them scared to leave the church. I dunno, but when Christian counselors get them out there is a lot of therapy that needs done.


In some ways, religions seek to change the way members think and act. Meditation is similar to self-hypnosis. Monasteries are similar to cults. When is it good and when is it bad?


Whenever compulsion is attached to it. Or it's not true.


edit on 13-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 12:16 AM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical



Want to know where?

Matthew 13:14 combined with Matthew 15:7 ?

Whether Jesus knew everything involved in the eventual formation of the scrolls he read is doubtful.
Even if he did understand it all, he was speaking openly to people in common terms and not giving a lecture on textual criticism.

Even I, upon occasion say things like, "As Moses wrote..." Even though I don't believe there ever was a Moses associated with the actual writing of the Torah, unless he was a janitor in the temple who "found the scroll of the Law of Moses", in the 18th year of Josiah the Messiah.

Just a question. Are you reading the book that this thread is about?
edit on 14-4-2012 by pthena because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 01:15 AM
link   
reply to post by pthena
 


No, not reading it.

Hint (John 12:39):


Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,


Which two Isaiah prophecies was Christ repeating? Where were they in Isaiah?



Jesus was the greatest scholar of the OT the world had ever seen. He told Pharisees and Scribes who had entire books memorized, and failed to see that Word made flesh in front of them:

"Ummm, you dudes don't know crap about the scriptures."


edit on 14-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 01:59 AM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical


Which two Isaiah prophecies was Christ repeating? Where were they in Isaiah?

Isaiah 53 and Isaiah 6.

Holy Moly! That poor dude, volunteers to go for the Lord, in the year Uzziah died (c 740 BC). Poor guy is still to this day out prophesying.


11 Then I said, “Lord, how long?”

He answered,

“Until cities are waste without inhabitant,
and houses without man,
and the land becomes utterly waste,
12 And Yahweh has removed men far away,
and the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.

13 If there is a tenth left in it,
that also will in turn be consumed:

as a terebinth, and as an oak, whose stock remains when they are felled;
so the holy seed is its stock.”

That amount of emptiness has never happened yet. Oh man! That poor dude. Crying out loud. "It is written. So it must be!" Poor guy! Poor poor Isaiah! I bet he's probably had more time to study the Old Testament than Jesus. That poor guy!



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 02:13 AM
link   
reply to post by pthena
 


Anytime you're in doubt as to whether you or Jesus is wrong...

go with yourself as a general rule.



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 02:21 AM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical

Anytime you're in doubt as to whether you or Jesus is wrong...

go with yourself as a general rule.

You are aware that various writers (whoever wrote the Gospels) don't portray Jesus in exactly the same way, even quoting him as saying different things. Which is the true Jesus?


Dogmatic philosophies have sought for tests for truth which might dispense us from appealing to the future. Some direct mark, by noting which we can be protected immediately and absolutely, now and forever, against all mistake--such has been the darling dream of philosophic dogmatists. It is clear that the ORIGIN of the truth would be an admirable criterion of this sort, if only the various origins could be discriminated from one another from this point of view, and the history of dogmatic opinion shows that origin has always been a favorite test.

James, William (2009-10-04). Varieties of Religious Experience, a Study in Human Nature (Kindle Locations 320-324). Public Domain Books. Kindle Edition.



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 02:47 AM
link   
reply to post by pthena
 



You are aware that various writers (whoever wrote the Gospels) don't portray Jesus in exactly the same way, even quoting him as saying different things. Which is the true Jesus?


I was going to go to bed, but this was so absurd it needed to be immediately addressed. Soon-to-be lawyers learn in like the 3rd week that if several witness's stories match perfectly it's proof of collusion and they will object on the spot.

Secondly, Jesus like most any other speaker probably repeated His message numerous times, and in the same places numerous times a day when people would leave and people would come.

When I listen to favorite speakers talk, they same the exact same things with minor details varying. Men are not robots repeating a recorded message. Sit through two services at church one Sunday and see if the preacher says the same sermon word for word. LOL Matthew may have been recording/remembering what Jesus said at 10 am, John may be describing what He said at 5 pm. Luke may have been recalling what He taught 3 weeks before the passion week on a Thursday, Matthew may have been recording what He said the day before, same message.

You can't be serious. If they matched perfectly that would be a sign they all conspired to make this up and you'd be attacking the gospels on those grounds. If you really want to be blown away look at the work of Dr. Ivan Panin. The heptadic structure he discovered in the TR text is impossible to replicate even with computers.

You're reading books by folks that are indoctrinating you. I heard Dr. Bart Ehrman claim in a debate that there are "hundreds of thousands of errors alone in the gospels." Yet the monkey will count the exact same spelling mistake in 2,500 manuscripts as 2,500 errors.

WTF? People can be educated FAR beyond their intelligence, it happens all the time.


edit on 14-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



new topics

top topics



 
7
<< 3  4  5    7  8  9 >>

log in

join