CIA and Pentagon Plan for Worse Case in Mexico

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


"Protectionism"

You can't have it both ways. If you start protectionist practices so will other countries and that is how trade wars start.

If you are not fighting and can manage it, then you keep your jobs at home, and you build a strong economy, but is it as strong as being part of free trade agreements and globalization? Corporations, are still the meat and potatoes of America, and as such they get cheap labor elsewhere and raw materials elsewhere and just act as middle men in many cases with offices abroad, and benefit from being able to produce cheaper quality products etc.

People turned away from protectionism because t did not provide the same number of opportunities and there was too much red tape. And with red tape you get seriously late deliveries.

But again if for instance there was a union of North America, if it was to really be better than things are now, you need to elect people based on merit and not based on money.

You will get nothing but forms of feudalism, and a large gap between the rich and the poor, if you don't limit campaign spending and or merely provide the time free by law for people to campaign and get their message out.

Otherwise, how on earth, can you ever expect to live in a democracy, when all it takes is to have the biggest bank roll to win? And with winning, goes the affiliations of the victor, and the leanings of that group and it is a serious minority. Which is out of touch with the common people, trying to get them to do things and getting no where as a nation.
www.michaelparenti.org...

What I am saying is if all you have to offer is the already fat 1% controlling now more territory poorly, and going from one disaster to the next, then we don't want to play.

In Canada we have lots of resources and a small population and low crime rates, a high happiness quotient we don't want to merely become part of a plate of spaghetti with *poop* on it. Which frankly is what both America and Mexico look like to us on a good day with all the drive by killings etc.

Originally posted by Erongaricuaro

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

Can I ask in what countries are narcotics legal? In the middle east and asia they actually have the death sentence for narcotic dealers and jail sentences for the users.

There are various classifications for control of substances. Cocaine and methamphetamine are available with a prescription as well as many varieties of opiates. Cannabis is classified as having no know beneficial uses and is strictly prohibited; and although some US states have legalized it for medical use the federal government does not recognize the state's classification.

That likely means narcotics are more dangerous for the average user than tabacco and alcohol!

Actually it means nothing of the kind. Alcohol is strictly prohibited in some Middle East countries and elsewhere. In case you are a minor and have no experience with alcohol or tobacco I would like to caution you that either one, especially alcohol, is nothing that should be regarded nor used lightly. There are very dangerous consequences regarding their use regardless of their legal status.

I am assuming you are using the term "narcotics" in a very general and not a strict sense where not all illicit substances fall into that category. And although "legal" those substances are all controlled substances and not available for just anyone to purchase like bubble gum.

edit on 9-4-2012 by Erongaricuaro because: (no reason given)

have to hand it to you, i gave up trying to explain this to people who have never done any research into drugs, the drug war and the usage verses legality of it all, nor any scientific peer reviewed material on them. they just start spewing everything the government have taught them for 50 years without doing any thinking on their own.

Originally posted by Rocketman7
reply to post by EarthCitizen07

 

"Protectionism"

You can't have it both ways. If you start protectionist practices so will other countries and that is how trade wars start.

You are assuming too many wrong things. We already have a global imbalance in trade by american and european companies exploiting the asian workforce with pathetically cheap wages, then these same companies turn around and sell these products/services to the unemployed american and european consumers.

How difficult can this be to comprehend?

If you are not fighting and can manage it, then you keep your jobs at home, and you build a strong economy, but is it as strong as being part of free trade agreements and globalization? Corporations, are still the meat and potatoes of America, and as such they get cheap labor elsewhere and raw materials elsewhere and just act as middle men in many cases with offices abroad, and benefit from being able to produce cheaper quality products etc.

Yes we know american and european investors benefit immensly, BUT WHAT ABOUT EVERYONE ELSE???

People turned away from protectionism because t did not provide the same number of opportunities and there was too much red tape. And with red tape you get seriously late deliveries.

NONSENSE!

But again if for instance there was a union of North America, if it was to really be better than things are now, you need to elect people based on merit and not based on money.

You will get nothing but forms of feudalism, and a large gap between the rich and the poor, if you don't limit campaign spending and or merely provide the time free by law for people to campaign and get their message out.

Nothing in the world is free my friend. Someone has to pay for it! People pay for healthcare and likewise people should pay a vote tax to ensure all parties get the same media coverage, thus banning the need for personal and corporate donations--which are merely a form of legal bribes.

Otherwise, how on earth, can you ever expect to live in a democracy, when all it takes is to have the biggest bank roll to win? And with winning, goes the affiliations of the victor, and the leanings of that group and it is a serious minority. Which is out of touch with the common people, trying to get them to do things and getting no where as a nation.
www.michaelparenti.org...

What I am saying is if all you have to offer is the already fat 1% controlling now more territory poorly, and going from one disaster to the next, then we don't want to play.

In Canada we have lots of resources and a small population and low crime rates, a high happiness quotient we don't want to merely become part of a plate of spaghetti with *poop* on it. Which frankly is what both America and Mexico look like to us on a good day with all the drive by killings etc.

When some people have billions or worse trillions on their hands and nothing better to do than covertly buy the government, then it makes no difference if we have a vote tax, corporate donations, or jesus christ makes his second appearance.

I am not trying to be rude with you, but we have to be frank with each other!

Originally posted by Erongaricuaro

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

Can I ask in what countries are narcotics legal? In the middle east and asia they actually have the death sentence for narcotic dealers and jail sentences for the users.

There are various classifications for control of substances. Cocaine and methamphetamine are available with a prescription as well as many varieties of opiates. Cannabis is classified as having no know beneficial uses and is strictly prohibited; and although some US states have legalized it for medical use the federal government does not recognize the state's classification.

I think coc aine and methamphetamines should be available with a prescription. I think this is the case as well in the netherlands. As for cannabi it could(and should) be made legal with big benefits to the consumer and no real life threatning potential. The reason they don't, according to the american government, is that it is used as a stepping stone to harder drugs...which I think is bull#.

That likely means narcotics are more dangerous for the average user than tabacco and alcohol!

Actually it means nothing of the kind. Alcohol is strictly prohibited in some Middle East countries and elsewhere. In case you are a minor and have no experience with alcohol or tobacco I would like to caution you that either one, especially alcohol, is nothing that should be regarded nor used lightly. There are very dangerous consequences regarding their use regardless of their legal status.

I am assuming you are using the term "narcotics" in a very general and not a strict sense where not all illicit substances fall into that category. And although "legal" those substances are all controlled substances and not available for just anyone to purchase like bubble gum.

edit on 9-4-2012 by Erongaricuaro because: (no reason given)

Any substance can be dangerous if abused, but I simply can't see how alcohol and tabacco are on par with coc aine and heroine. Everything is relative to something else. Perhaps I am wrong and those who have done more research into the topic are correct.

Originally posted by LittleBlackEagle

have to hand it to you, i gave up trying to explain this to people who have never done any research into drugs, the drug war and the usage verses legality of it all, nor any scientific peer reviewed material on them.

They will remain unconvinced so why try?

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

I think coc aine and methamphetamines should be available with a prescription. I think this is the case as well in the netherlands. As for cannabi it could(and should) be made legal with big benefits to the consumer and no real life threatning potential. The reason they don't, according to the american government, is that it is used as a stepping stone to harder drugs...which I think is bull#.

That is the concession that may be needed in order to make drug policy manageable.

I always had to question the "Gateway" argument. Cannabis is Schedule I, forbidden under any circumstance. Cocaine, methamphetamine, and opiates are schedule II, available by prescription. So by the same logic you used earlier, that those in the less restricted category must therefore be less dangerous, I have to ask, cannabis is the Gateway to what, less dangerous drugs? I believe it is alcohol that is the true Gateway that conditions young people into accepting recreational drug use as a way of life. Alcohol is very highly promoted and suitable for virtually any occasion, according to the promo.

Any substance can be dangerous if abused, but I simply can't see how alcohol and tabacco are on par with coc aine and heroine. Everything is relative to something else. Perhaps I am wrong and those who have done more research into the topic are correct.

Coca plant (from which coc aine is derived) comes from high in the Andes and the indigenous people for hundreds of years or more have chewed the leaves to cope with living in those extremey high altitudes.

Heroin is derived from opium whose products are used as pain relievers. As one enters advanced age arthritis, cancer, and other painful conditions often develop that may ultimately be treated with opiates. If as an old man one would prefer to keep a poppy garden and harvest his own opium latex rather than buy a pharmaceutical company's product at the drug store and compelling him to spend money in order to live without debilitating pain, it becomes a matter of who else is claiming ownership of his body.

There is that summit conference currently scheduled in Cartagena, Colombia for leaders of Latin American nations, Obama, and others to discuss alternative solutions to the failed US-led drug policy model. It is an unprecedented event. There was a thread announcing that conference that got censored here on ATS while this and other drug-themed threads sprang up after the media began blitzing us with scary-tales in response to the summit conference announcement.

reply to post by godspetrat


Rumour has it that Johnny Appleseed, went coast to coast not planting Apple seeds, but Hemp hahaha

reply to post by Rocketman7

The cartels are already running Mexico like a business....DUH!....Thats the problem.

I'm not forgetting all people who testified that apparently NSA and black ops are closely linked to this drug trade and make tons of money with it.

I came across this while sorting my pics and thought I'd hop back and share it.



The image is courtesy of Stratfor and among their public offerings during the open/free period.

After looking at this map and considering it's implications, I think the best solution might just be to build that wall but make it a proper one with consideration toward physical defensive ability. The whole nation down there is in turmoil and chaos, if not full blown civil war.

Originally posted by pascalt
I'm not forgetting all people who testified that apparently NSA and black ops are closely linked to this drug trade and make tons of money with it.

this is nothing more than political posturing, of course our agents are tied to the cartel, when money and power are involved, the US govt. will be in on it. pre US insurgence into Afghanistan 10% of the worlds opium production came from there, post US insurgence, 92% of the worlds opium comes from there, what part of that information can the American people not see?

very little if any truth comes out to the public on these issues, it's almost all political posturing or BS motivational lies to keep the majority content, while ill doings go on everyday within our law makers and law enforcement.

there are many good people still remaining in legislation and law enforcement along with our military, i just hope they will begin to do something about it before it's too late...

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

After looking at this map and considering it's implications, I think the best solution might just be to build that wall but make it a proper one with consideration toward physical defensive ability.

The whole nation down there is in turmoil and chaos, if not full blown civil war.

Thanks for posting that bold and brightly colored map. I see some features showing spheres of influence that I know to be more or less correct and we could assume other features it shows to be somewhat accurate as well though these "territories" have been in flux over the past few years as less than a decade ago this map would look entirely different as the Drug War has swept through forcing changes in leadership.

It is these influences in a state of change that has been at the root of violent outbursts as one leader gets taken out and three lieutenants step up to take over operations, skirmish, and new competitive factions emerge to blossom into their own sphere. The Drug Warriors under the direction of US "advisors" know this will happen and the strategy used no doubt is aimed at causing the most instability and outbreaks. It makes for good media, brings this underworld out into the open giving the people something to fear, and helps set the mood for the regular citizens to want more government and police action to combat these elements.

That fear strategy has been working, though it seems to work better in the news north of the border. The Mexican people in large part, even the cartels themselves, have gotten wise to this and things have settled-down somewhat in more recent times. This "cut of the head" strategy is not being used in the US preferring to go after dealers and users at street-level, almost as if they do not want to disturb those at the top of US illicit drug interests. Perhaps they just fear the consequences that strategy could bring them.

I believe though that your map offers some mis-directions that could lead to some false conclusions, though I don't know if that is intentional or just mis-guided ignorance, and I myself could not be sure of all the data presented by it. One thing that caught my attention was the green arrows and the map legend that indicates they are showing routes of "Marijuana and meth traffic." Although it is likely some or all of the "cartels" would traffic in both of these substances and likely others as well they just do not have the same customer base nor travel in the same circles on the streets. It seems doubtful that they are customarily even shipped together as their concealment would not employ the same strategies. Meth is extremely dangerous with major consequences for a habitual user and I believe the mis-direction employed here is to lump them together to further demonize the weed. Sensible substance policy would not treat these two substances equally.

Another feature of this map that caught my attention is that one can see at Mexico's southern border some spill-over into Guatamala and Central America, but looking north all this drug traffic and chaos stops dead at the northern border and the United States looks so serene and natural with its topographical features unblemished. One might conclude that all these goings-on just do not happen in America. Having been born and living most of my life in the US I could attest this is far from the truth. While these cartels may not carry-on much of their interests across the border there are many factions in the US who do and whose influence is not felt in Mexico like the Crips, Bloods, the biker gangs that manufacture and distribute meth in the US, and many other factions operating in the states that may not be called "cartels" but are just known to be largely unnamed "competitive interests" that deal in this traffic as well.

It is much bigger money that changes hands in the US where the highest demand for drugs in the world also demand the highest prices. You map is intended to show the traffic flow of raw materials and finished product by Mexico's cartels, and that it does. However, it is disingenuous to assume drug traffic does not flow in the US. While coc aine must come from South America to get into the US the majority of US drug traffic originates in the US itself, methamphetamine, marijuana, and other substances are largely produced in the US for US consumption.

Living here in Mexico where life is mostly calm and serene and much of life goes at a bit slower pace there just isn't nearly as huge of a drug problem as up north. What does exist here is nowhere near as apparent nor at the scale it is up north. I believe Mexico is no closer to a civil war, as you suggest, than is the US. Our economy is growing, factories are being built, people are productive, and our middle-class is growing. The US is somewhat in a state of decline.

reply to post by Erongaricuaro

I appreiate your considered reply and I take your points to heart on the short comings of the map, to the degree it has a few.

I'd point out that I noted the source and I didn't make the map. I'm far from having the volume of raw data anyone would need to produce something like that as more than a graphic depiction of pure guess work. Stratfor produced it and as we all learned through such public disclosures, they tended to have sources just about everywhere feeding information back on a little bit of everything.

So.... It doesn't surprise me that some of the map is a little shakey. In my defense, I'd say the map I presented is a few months old...it hasn't been challenged for factual content in any serious way by those in the public eye who would know best..so I have taken it to be largely accurate.


As for the sudden halt of all graphics at the U.S. Border... well... Again, I didn't make the map, but I look at that similar to how one might show the International supply chain into Walmart Corp. All roads lead to and would generally end at Bentonville, Arkansas. No need to decorate a map with the thousands of logistics routes to the Distribution Centers and then onto the countless stores.... Just showing all paths ending at Bentonville tells the rest. As I think this does.

All roads leading to the Southern land border doesn't leave much to wonder for what would appear for graphics north....it just wouldn't leave much map to see or recognize after being drawn in. lol

reply to post by randomname


bounty hunting is illegal in mexico thats why dog got in all that trouble but i think they can pay cops the bounties if they are doing it as a part of their jobs it might be legal either way a soloution to the violence must be found soon or its only gonna get worse

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

www.time.com... actually it does get rid of crimes and addicts or at least it worked in Portugal
www.opposingviews.com...

This month marks the 10-year anniversary of Portugal's radical decision to decriminalize the possession of all drugs -- not just marijuana, but coc aine, heroin and everything else in Keith Richards' suitcase. Many experts predicted disaster -- a nation of drug abusers. Well, 10 years later, the opposite has happened. According to a report on AlterNet.org, Portugal was in the midst of a staggering epidemic of HIV infection among drug users who used needles when it took the drastic step of legalizing all drugs. It certainly worked for HIV infections, considering they plunged 17%. Meanwhile, drug deaths were cut by half overall. As far as drug usage, just 10% of adults in Portugal now smoke marijuana. That is the lowest rate in the European Union, and is miniscule compared to the 40% rate in the United States. Heroin use is also down dramatically.

so yeah make it legal aids rates go down drug deaths go down and prisons dont get over crowded by drugoffenders as they are sent to rehabs to rehabilitate not incarcerate

He added, "By freeing its citizens from the fear of prosecution and imprisonment for drug usage, Portugal has dramatically improved its ability to encourage drug addicts to avail themselves of treatment. The resources that were previously devoted to prosecuting and imprisoning drug addicts are now available to provide treatment programs to addicts."

a government with the most advanced military has been fighting a war against a plant for 40 years ...the plant is winning

so i think the combination of decriminalization and increased options for rehabilitation not incarceration(will save millions in prison costs) added to a full on coordinated effort to wipe the cartels off the face of the earth with the full co operation of mexican and united states governments would put an end to the bloodshed that has gone on far to long in my opinion

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


Netherlands(for residents only),Portugal, Mexico has decriminalized some drugs but not all and not all amounts,coca leaf is chewed in the Andes to deal with altitude sickness(not processed coc aine but natural leaf) khat(sp?) is legal in Somalia(a predominately Muslim country)morrocco also mostly Muslim is known for its strains of cannibals(think its a greay area for them haram being the term in question that decides if its good or bad)
en.wikipedia.org... and a list for pot by country so yeah more then a few have legal drugs and not to many of them have huge problems after the fact

"failed state" and "Drugs cartel"

The USA should look in the mirrow and consider it's deficit and also the fact that the drugs output from afganistan has gone up 400% since the USA was so kind to liberate the place.

How dare that Clinton bitch give lesson to Russia about election fraud.

Nope i can see a failed state, one controlled by Israel and it's bankers and it's name is not Mexico

Mexico will do better than most when the fiat house of cards come falling down, so will greece because they have a healthy black market system ready to take over and next to buying Gold/Silver then a stock pile of drugs could prove just as usefull for your long term needs.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


"I think coc aine and methamphetamines should be available with a prescription. "

Already are..

People who give their kids Dexedrine might as well chalk up a fat line of pharmaceutical grade pure un-cut coc aine.. a let little Johnny gak it up off a strippers nipples.

BTW.. guess where "dealers", so called, are getting black market Dexedrine?.. from middle school kids!!.. bahaha!!

..these same parents will then get online and decry the ills of "drugs", parroting some nonsense as heard on TV about "protecting the children"..lol..

Dig the nazification of the population!!.. way to OBEY people!... rather than think critically, or outside the fascist box of the DC mafia, modern nazis go straight to knee jerk suggestions that, at this juncture, are stale epic failures: "invade Mexico, kill, kill, occupy, mercs, kill kill kill..send in the federal reserve goons"

A HS classmate of mine recorded a song on subject:
www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by Master_007
"failed state" and "Drugs cartel"

The USA should look in the mirrow and consider it's deficit and also the fact that the drugs output from afganistan has gone up 400% since the USA was so kind to liberate the place.

How dare that Clinton bitch give lesson to Russia about election fraud.

Nope i can see a failed state, one controlled by Israel and it's bankers and it's name is not Mexico.

Mexico will do better than most when the fiat house of cards come falling down, so will greece because they have a healthy black market system ready to take over and next to buying Gold/Silver then a stock pile of drugs could prove just as usefull for your long term needs.

You are making broad racist generalisations that are unfounded. Instead of blaming "israel and its bankers" maybe you should blame the rockefellers, rothschilds, and all the other billionares hiding their money and influence in off-shore accounts.

Israel is not the problem, but it certainly IS MADE to look like a problem. Russia is NO BETTER than america, neither is china...or they would STILL be communists, perhaps with an evolved form of communism. But no they sold themselves out to the highest bidder...which is what everyone does..iran being no exception!

Put a cap on wealth consolidation, enforce a vote tax and ban all donations, put reasonable tariffs and encourage sustainable global development and trade. THAT is how problems get solved. If you can't target the problem directly then maybe it is a good idea to leave things alone. The wrong solutions are worst than doing nothing!

Originally posted by GovtFlu
reply to post by EarthCitizen07

 

"I think coc aine and methamphetamines should be available with a prescription. "

Already are..

People who give their kids Dexedrine might as well chalk up a fat line of pharmaceutical grade pure un-cut coc aine.. a let little Johnny gak it up off a strippers nipples.

BTW.. guess where "dealers", so called, are getting black market Dexedrine?.. from middle school kids!!.. bahaha!!

..these same parents will then get online and decry the ills of "drugs", parroting some nonsense as heard on TV about "protecting the children"..lol..

Dig the nazification of the population!!.. way to OBEY people!... rather than think critically, or outside the fascist box of the DC mafia, modern nazis go straight to knee jerk suggestions that, at this juncture, are stale epic failures: "invade Mexico, kill, kill, occupy, mercs, kill kill kill..send in the federal reserve goons"

A HS classmate of mine recorded a song on subject:
www.youtube.com...

With all due respect I hope you are not calling me a nazi. Just because I think some substances should remain illegal does not make me anything. The substances themselves are part of the problem IF used the wrong way, which most people do.

RIch people are the problem with too much time and money on their hands. Get rid of the FED and see how fast problems get solved.