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Ron Paul and Abortion " My thoughts" Please contribute

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posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 12:35 AM
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So far, the anti-abortion folks never fail to amuse when it comes to reaching new lows.

You don't see the irony?

People who support Ron Paul (usually say they love freedom, etc) and are anti-abortion?

Shouldn't a woman have the right to decide what goes on in her uterus?

After all, isn't that freedom too? I think so.




posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 12:39 AM
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Life is sacred....

But who chooses what life is sacred?

How about a puppy? ...Sacred

How about a chicken? ...Are you kidding? ...KILL IT...EAT IT!

How about a gnat? ...A pest...KILL IT!

A cancer cell?....KILL KILL KILL

What about a harmless garden snake? ...No time to check to see if it's poisonous...KILL IT!

What about a baby?....what kind of baby?....a chicken baby....KILL IT...EAT IT!

What about a human baby? ...I dunno, what trimester? Was the mother a slut, a rape victim? Incest?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

So what is it? Is ALL life sacred?

...Or is it just the life that YOU deem sacred?

...And by the way, who are you again?


*you can begin quoting your religious texts now*



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 12:42 AM
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reply to post by yoyoyoyo
 


For someone eager to learn about the arguments of abortion . I am surprised to see the amount of illogical, fallacious lines of questioning here in this thread.

Let's start with the area of "life " or better yet . "an individual deserving of legal rights" , begins at fertilization/ conception . This is where i see the BIGGEST amount of utter uneducated , ignorant hypocrites spouting off. Here's why :

Hormone contraceptives work by making the uterus unsuitable for a fertilized egg to implant or stay implanted. WHERE is the crowd screaming contraceptive is murder ???? You know why ? Because statistically MOST people use it and agree to some extend (whether they admit it or not ) that they have some right over their reproductive choices, and that a microscopic cell does not take precedence.

People who say " I don't like the morning after pill" but agree with hormone contraceptives also are ignorant , uneducated Hippocrates, because it is just an extra dose of contraception designed to prevent implantation. Of course they probably have it confused the actual abortion pill RU486.

Moving on: So Let's agree that a fertilized egg is not worthy of legal "rights" especially legal rights that override a woman's right to autonomy. Let's say the only two other stages we can argue are that of sentience and that of viability.

At what point does a human beings right to life override your right to autonomy? If we want to use all these crazy arguments "hey we might as well kill retarded people blah blah " let's roll with it ....

So at what point is it okay for me to strap you down to a table and harvest your kidney or use your organs so that "poor johnny " over there won't die ..because obviously his right to life trumps your right to say what happens inside and to your body ?

I'm sure someone is bound to say " well a woman chose to get pregnant etc..". THat argument is null and void , Birth control sometimes FAILS , condoms break and sh*t happens. So I don't even want to hear any of that nonsense.

FIGURE ME A RIDDLE !! How do you legally grant a fetus and the mother EQUAL legal rights under all circumstances ? The plain simple truth is THAT YOU CAN'T . It can't be done . So basically YOU would like decide who's rights to violate and who's we will not based on what ? Religion , superiority?

If the greatest of philosophers can't figure it out , neither can you , this is a choice woman are left to make, and no one has the right to ride in on their high horse and impose on them what is no one's damn business.

I stand by this argument 100% if you want to read an argument that is both well thought out and rational . Judith Jarvis Thomson

edit on 9-4-2012 by paleorchid13 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 12:49 AM
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The problem with bleeding hearts on a subject like this is that they're typically more concerned with their own emotions on the subject rather than the amount of suffering that an individual has to go through. I believe that if you look past the sentiment for two seconds the answer becomes pretty clear. To me, it's much more barbaric and cruel to bring a child into this world knowing that he/she is going to suffer. If you can end that misery before it begins, then you should definitely do so.

This isn't just in reference to children that will be born with physical or mental problems that hamper their lives. It's also in regards to children being born to parents that aren't able to take care of them. Financially or mentally.

Throwing a kid into foster homes is not a good answer. It's often the best option once it's too late, but it should be avoided at all costs. Kids that go through the system OFTEN go through hell.

Why would you not want to keep a child from coming into a hellish existence? You're screaming, "you have a right to live!" without considering that living might not be the greatest thing under the circumstances.

Especially, as other people have mentioned, given the fact that the world's population is getting completely out of hand and we have a LIMITED number of resources. "Congratulations! Thanks to the bleeding-heart pro-lifers you've won a life of Mal-nourishment, under-education, improper health care, a nagging feeling of isolation and loneliness due to the fact that you bounce around between temporary families all the time, and a lifetime of just generally barely scraping by to get what you need. Don't worry, though. Statistically speaking, there's a great chance that you'll turn to an exciting life of crime once you reach adulthood! It's because we love you and value your life, really."



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 12:53 AM
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Okay a quick abortion joke I made up years ago? (it ain't good)

How do you feel about Roe versus Wade?

answer: I don't like either one...I'd rather swim



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 01:03 AM
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Agree with the pro choice stance.

However, I will say I am cynical when anyone writes a thread on abortion.

It's like they search the boards to see which topics create the most conflict, then light the blue touch paper.

It's a topic where no one makes progress because they're all too busy focusing on the emotional or religious aspects.

It gets you stars and flags and post counts, but it doesn't get you any further.



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 01:10 AM
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I don't understand how people saying "abortion is murder" and "all life is sacred" always consider pregnancies from a rape to be acceptable terms for abortion, it's a huge contradiction. A life is a life is a life is a life.
What makes that child less of a life than all the other fetuses out there? Is the fact that it was "forced" into existence that makes it less worthy? Less worthy than those two teenagers that were just fooling around and didn't think to wear a condom? Two teens who are very much not ready for the responsibility for parenthood? They didn't want the kid either.

I know a while back in an abortion thread I took the stance of pro-life, but I've thought about it long and hard and rationalized, and I'm now pro-choice.



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 01:51 AM
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reply to post by rival
 


What about war, sanctioned by the people, that kills innocent people?

How about when it's sanctioned by a religious authority?



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 01:56 AM
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I'm weird...

As a mother, grandmother and medical doctor I don't agree with the concept of abortion, I wouldn't consider having one myself, and I'd be reluctant to perform one unless a woman's life was in jeopardy, however I support a woman's right to make that decision for herself based on her individual circumstances. It's not my right to dictate morals to others, regardless of my personal beliefs.

My big problem is how the religious nutters are continually working to erode women's rights. I can understand their deep conviction to life, but they pass the line of acceptability by trying to restrict birth control options in addition to abortion restrictions. Why can't they get it through their heads that if you don't want people to have abortions, the best choice is to allow them the education and resources to not get pregnant in the first place?



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 02:12 AM
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Originally posted by yoyoyoyo
reply to post by LaborofLove
 


And I just want people to think twice. If not a 100 times before they do it. It's not the god damn movie theaters...

This is real Life and your considering ending a REAL LIFE. That's what people need to think about. In my mind.



Nobody thinks twice about abortion.
As you said this is real life.
Between "I am late" and buying a pregnancy test, peeing on the stick, waiting for the result, going to the doctor to get certainty that you are pregnant, telling the partner, putting all options on the table etc, etc etc up to the ultimate decision to have it or not to have it, a woman thinks a thousand times about this.



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 02:20 AM
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Hey it looks like we have a discussion. I will read all responses tomorrow and reply. I commend you guys and I encourage further discussion.


As discussion will lead to common ground and with common ground we can see who is right with out all the name calling etc...

Life starts at conception, All Life is Important. Not just humans. I believe we are barbaric because abortion is a "medical" procedure that involves ending another human beings life.

Human life start's at conception, to tell yourself other wise is ignorant in my mind. First stage of life is when 1. Male sperm meets female egg. 2. And wal lah if all conditions are right from here on which doesn't take much a human will be born.

I recommend a video posted by another ats member. Showing satanic ritual of infantcide to please the Gods. I propose it is still happening today. And we are being fooled into everything is normal. Everything is not normal.

Pro -Abortion people how can you look yourselves in the mirror knowing if your parents aborted you, you wouldn't be here to have your hypocritical stance.

I will be glad to respond tomorrow, I need some sleep.


Thank you All,
I pray for all of us.



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 02:26 AM
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Originally posted by yoyoyoyo

abortion is a "medical" procedure that involves ending another human beings life.


This line should end all arguments.

It's not natural.



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 03:24 AM
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Father of 5 here...
To be honest with you, if I were to have taken the responsible route (which most of the pro-choicers seem to cling to more than life itself), then my youngest child wouldn't be in this world now.

Thank God I didn't take the cowardly approach and encourage her mother to have an abortion, because it wouldn't have taken much to make it happen. After all, she put it on the table as an option...

My baby Arianna came THAT close to getting extinguished before she even got started... imagine that...
For my own selfishness, all I had to say was "Do it".

Its disgusting that me or anyone else has that option.



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 03:25 AM
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reply to post by yoyoyoyo
 

Long time guest first time posting- this is a hot topic for me.

First: "Big Picture." ...

Nature - - across the board - wants more fertility that the environment can sustain - the whole purpose of is to continue the experiment and we are just the vessels for our genome's expression....nature always employs gross overfertility whether its dandelions, bees, cockroaches, cats or people, so a small percentage can survive. Since we are not in a 'natural' environment where disease and predators take us down to reasonable levels as they once did, the idea of EVERY human conception coming to term would make our now already monstrous numbers swell even more.

Morally: No woman relishes terminating a pregnancy, even if its an accident, result of a one night stand or incest or rape-- or just something that financial and emotional resources can't sustaint.. its not a pleasant or fun procedure. I understand the upset by 'pro lifers' if they believe the zygote is 'ensouled' immediately - but I have never seen the same passion translate when the fetus becomes a living child - where are the services and support to the single mothers? Adoption you say? Have you read the statistics on social and psychological issues with adoptees, especially in the classically closed method? If the fervor were spread equally to the humans a few years after they leave the womb, their arguments would have more clout.

Practical, real life: At least 75% of the women you know right now - over age 35 have had at least one abortion (either legal or if they are past 60, probably illegal or in one of the few places you could get them pre 1972). Yes I mean your religious grandmother, your aunties, your sisters, your mothers. No matter what they say. In every family, there is a woman who has terminated a pregnancy. Guaranteed. They just don't talk about it, especially if they are religious or over a certain age. Most of them (including myself), never had any ill effects, went on to have more children or stopped having children. A great number of them who had to terminate were married women who already had other children but no resources to support more.

Spiritual, biological: "Humans" are not born 'done'. We are born basically premature and helpless because of the size of our heads and brains, we need intense nurturing for many years to turn us into what is commonly accepted as a normal person. Without the intense bonding and nurturing, the devotion of one or more caregivers, that person will be dysfunctional, even feral or psychopathic. Therefore to propose that the fetus at 6 or 8 weeks is a miniature human is untrue. (I am not saying infanticide or late term abortion is an option - only giving context).

Historical: throughout the ages, family planning when natural death didn't take care of it (typically only a few children might survive out of a dozen born)- was infanticide - in ancient times (including bible times), up to the late middle ages. Had it been 'verboten' the bible would have decried it, but as it was a natural part of life, it went unmentioned. Read 'the kindness of strangers' on this subject. Our beloved fairy tales with themes of of abandoned children, and identify replacement (orphan becomes king, etc), all spring from the common abandonment of children who couldn't be cared for (parents hoping a kindly aristocrat would pick their child vs the elements taking them, or more likely someone looking for slaves).

Finally - there is as yet no perfect method to control our fertility. Nature, God, whatever you want to describe it as, wants most of all for the genome to survive. Thus sexual reproduction, which shuffles the deck each time egg and sperm collide, and through the interplay of environment and mutation, to adapt to all kinds of conditions. Who knows we may have mutationss occurring now that will allow us to process the plastics and pollution as well as the high amounts of radioactive isotopes we're not inundated with. Those without the mutation will die off, but it may not be pretty, or easy, or quick. If you think "god doesnt make mistakes' and its all a perfect laid out plan - then explain vestigial tails, the appendix, the blind spot, infants born without brains, with such gross disabilities that they wouldn't appear human if you saw them, yet they can survive.

And on the most intimate, personal , realistic level - every child deserves to be wanted and cared for. Bearing and rearing a child is an all consuming process, on every level. At the end of the day, even a happily married woman with support knows that the greatest burden is on her, and only she knows what she can handle.

A huge cause of the misery we witness in the world, and talk about here is because people had children for the wrong reasons or didn't want them at all. There are absolutely positively worse things than being born.



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 03:38 AM
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l found your post to be educating since some people do not take a second to think about their actions and how they affect the world around them. life is precious but it seems that it is not valued that much nowadays, l say this because of the pollution and hunting for fun among other things. If you are an atheist at least value life because you do not know why it is as it is.



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 03:43 AM
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Originally posted by ~Vixen~

My big problem is how the religious nutters are continually working to erode women's rights. I can understand their deep conviction to life, but they pass the line of acceptability by trying to restrict birth control options in addition to abortion restrictions. Why can't they get it through their heads that if you don't want people to have abortions, the best choice is to allow them the education and resources to not get pregnant in the first place?


I strongly disagree with this position. I've read quite a few comments in recent threads claiming that everyone who's pro-life also opposes contraceptives. Why do you have to put everyone in a box like that? I feel that if you can prevent conception, then by all means do, but once you cross that line, it's out of your hands.

Read the second quote of my signature, that should clear up 90% of the opposing arguments.



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 03:49 AM
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Originally posted by begeegrace
reply to post by yoyoyoyo
 

Long time guest first time posting- this is a hot topic for me.

First: "Big Picture." ...

Nature - - across the board - wants more fertility that the environment can sustains


That is one of the most ridiculous comment I've ever heard.

Nature IS the environment. How can nature WANT more than nature can sustain?



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 03:50 AM
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reply to post by yoyoyoyo
 


Look, if you truly cared to know how ATS feels you could do a search and find lots of topics. All express the same polar opposite views.

How I feel? I am sick to death of abortion being discussed on a forum which professes to be about denying ignorance and ABOVE TOP SECRET. How is this ATS? It's main stream. Get it off these forums and discuss it on 4Chan or Reddit or some other crass forum already.

Vile, disgusting topic .. yet again.

T



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 03:56 AM
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reply to post by Bone75
 


The examples of such direction run rampant in review of current US events. I'm not saying that all people that are religious share those views, but many of the hard core evangelical types certainly are trying to suppress and restrict our rights as women.

There are alternatives to abortion, but denying that they exist and hindering accessibility to contraceptives is the wrong direction to move if the goal is to prevent abortion.

The best prevention to abortion is effective contraception.
edit on 4/9/2012 by ~Vixen~ because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 04:00 AM
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Originally posted by ~Vixen~

My big problem is how the religious nutters are continually working to erode women's rights. I can understand their deep conviction to life, but they pass the line of acceptability by trying to restrict birth control options in addition to abortion restrictions.


Abortion restrictions you say? Are you aware that over 90% of abortions are committed out of convenience rather than necessity or rape. It doesn't take a "religious nutter" to recognize that this is wrong.

The little skank that's in search of the world's biggest penis should be the face of abortion, not the unfortunate soul that was raped by her uncle.
edit on 9-4-2012 by Bone75 because: (no reason given)



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