Ron Paul and Abortion " My thoughts" Please contribute

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo
reply to post by milominderbinder

 

Why are you so pro-choice? I think that's a good question... What do you get out of others suffering?

I mean you are playing devils advocate with me... Supporting the wrong side over and over and over.

What do you get out of this? Why must you continue to preach for the killing of the unborn?

There is NOTHING wrong with the pro choice side of this argument. You need to take responsibility for your own life and your own relationships and stop trying to tell women what is right or wrong. Those are personal decisions that are not yours to make.

By the way, I don't remember anyone asking for your opinion on the matter in the first place. Making a thread attacking a woman's choice may attract both side of this argument. But, nobody is going to ask you, or refer to this thread, before making the choice to end a pregnancy. That is a woman's right, it's not yours to take. And no, the unborn don't have or deserve to have, rights above a mothers.

Nobody is going to be swayed against pro-choice because of your passion and constant nagging on about this argument. If you ask me why I'm so pro-choice, I'll tell you because my priority is on the quality of life, that is already living, not on the sacrifice of the living for someone's moral, bible thumping high ground.

reply to post by windword

But, no body is going to ask you, or refer to this thread, before making the choice to end a pregnancy.

What does that mean?

reply to post by windword


1. They are obviously not mothers if they are aborting their children...

2. If your a women and you think this is about pro-choice, your lost and confused, it's about population control and control in general.

3. I still don't understand why you fight so hard for people to be able to abort their unborn children...

4. Your argument is null and void.

5. Your out of your right mind, thinking this is pro - women to be able to abort their children.

6. Aborting children in no way is right.

7. Your wrong and you will never be right on this issue unless you change your stance.

8. I believe women, such as yourself, are brainwashed into thinking it's acceptable to kill our unborn brothers and sisters.

9. I'm not a bible thumper.

10. I believe in God, Do you?

11. I hope you change your point of view because you are helping no one. No One!

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo
reply to post by windword

 

1. They are obviously not mothers if they are aborting their children...

I am a mother, and I've had an abortion, my second pregnancy.

2. If your a women and you think this is about pro-choice, your lost and confused, it's about population control and control in general.

Nope. Just pragmatic.

3. I still don't understand why you fight so hard for people to be able to abort their unborn children...

I don't know why you personally insult people who reply to your thread.

4. Your argument is null and void.

My argument is the "Law of the Land."

5. Your out of your right mind, thinking this is pro - women to be able to abort their children.

Being a woman who remembers how hard fought our rights were to get, you better be sure I'm not going to let them slip away passively.

6. Aborting children in no way is right.

It's not your judgement or decision to make, is it?

7. Your wrong and you will never be right on this issue unless you change your stance.

In your mind.

8. I believe women, such as yourself, are brainwashed into thinking it's acceptable to kill our unborn brothers and sisters.

I don't care what you believe.

9. I'm not a bible thumper.

In my opinion you are.

10. I believe in God, Do you?

Not your god.

11. I hope you change your point of view because you are helping no one. No One!

That's debatable.

reply to post by windword


well if you don't believe in my God, I say you don't believe in God...


Because there is only one God.

I'm not trying to insult you, I just want you to change your stance.

Just because you had an abortion doesn't mean you need to advocate abortion...

Come on woman, I believe in you.

reply to post by yoyoyoyo


Typical bible thumping Christian. If I don't believe in your god, then I'm an atheist. I've had this conversation before

I'm not going to change my stance. I pick my battles, and women's reproductive rights are one of the battles I've picked. I also choose to fight against fundamentalist Christians trying to legislate laws about gay marriage and creationism being taught in schools.

Originally posted by Maslo
As a pro-choice, I agree completely with this point. If I viewed abortion as murder, I could not make any compromise as well (and I dont for late-term abortions).

Thats why I think the key to abortion debate is to convince the opponent that abortion is completely different from murder and is not an immoral act in itself.

You can view abortion as immoral and still not murder. In fact that opinion was somewhat what the Church had about 150 years ago. The Church of England (Protestant) follows this view. They don't say it's a moral virtue, but they don't think it's murder. Which is one of the big reasons why abortion is legal in England (Protestant) and not in Ireland (Catholic).

Pro-life Christians get really upset with this little factoid. "They're not real Christians!"

Having said that, convincing them abortion is not murder is a lost cause to ppl like yoyo. They sound like someone who isn't going to change their mind any time soon.

reply to post by windword


Can I just applaud you - in all seriousness - on a beautifully honest response?

Thank you for opening up to us with the fact that you have made this decision yourself. This must have been very difficult for you.

I really admire that you are coming from a position of experience.

I think the prolife movement are utterly rabid and irrational.

Most of their opinions also appear to be linked to some form of fundamentalist Christian belief that's very old testament.

I cannot have children, but we foster children who I believe would have had better lives if they had not been born.

We can only love them, but they come from such damaged backgrounds that often by age 3-5 they are destined to follow their parents' lives...no matter how positive an influence a carer or adopter can make.

Their souls would have been better born into a body which was truly wanted.

I would not wish these childrens' suffering on anyone.

May I remind you guys I'm on the other side of the isle. Pro-Life for a good reason.

I also have had abortions, and I wish the option was never available. It prays upon the weak and naive.

May God bless the souls that have been lost due to the barbaric practice of abortion and my negligence. May the women suffering from abortion be pain free and live a happy life. I pray for all, including those that take their unborn baby's life...

We all need prayers.


God Bless you all even the people that believe pro-choice is the right way... Maybe with this blessing we can reach a common ground of morality and common sense.

God acts through all of us, Even though we disagree he's showing us other peoples minds and perspective on life.

May the endless murdering of the unborn be stopped, I will pray for it.

If you believe in God , I hope you do, there is still hope for you and others.

God bless you all, I will respond to more comments later.

Lastly my wife, who has had the abortions, will never be the same. She has had suicidal tendencies and self destructive behaviors because of the abortions. And also a not so nice butterfly effect has happened because of it. I will never give up on her though for the pain I've put her through and the choices I influenced her to make.

May God take pity on my soul as I am only a weak human. Pray for me friends.

reply to post by yoyoyoyo


Ooof, that's complex.

How can men learn from you? How did you react? Why did you choose to pressure your wife?

I became pregnant to a fiancé who had hidden a history of mental illness from me.

When I announced my pregnancy, he slowly slipped into a schizophrenic episode and when I refused to abort, he tried to kill me.

The foetus gave up at six weeks - I am convinced it was the stress.

Sometimes situations are not right to bring a child into.

He must have had his reasons for acting the way he did, as must you have had.

I do not speak to my ex. But I have forgiven him.

You need to show yourself some love and forgive yourself.

reply to post by selfharmonise


young and naive. my friend...

and human greed...

I just want others to know that it isn't all fun and games for everyone...We all grow up at one time or another.

I know there is more like myself that rather just keep quiet.

I'm here to speak up for the unborn and hopefully educate others through my mistakes and influence others into making the right choice.

If I can change one person's life or mind, that one person will count.

God bless.

Originally posted by Clearskies

Originally posted by milominderbinder

Originally posted by selfharmonise
reply to post by milominderbinder

 

Yoyoyo - did you read the article I linked to?

Oh...and I would wager that yoyo probably did not read the article and even if she did would claim that it's just one of the Boogeyman's Tricks that she was warned about the first time she started questioning what she believed.
Gotta watch out for the Boogeyman.

What else can you say about a religion in which one of there is actually a "demon" of inventions, discovery, and science named Belphagor and he's purportedly such a bad "demon" that he was crowned as one of the Seven Princes of Hell. Thus, according to Christian Theology...Thomas Edison was an unholy emissary of the Dark Lord.

Yet somehow we have billions and billions of people worldwide that apparently think this sort of thinking makes sense and we should look to it's wisdom in all of our affairs...some of them even as they read "the bible" by way of the incandescent light bulb while listening to recorded music.

Incredible...isn't it?

So incredible that I haven't heard of it!
Seriously, you are very angry.

edit on 2-5-2012 by Clearskies because: (no reason given)

I'm not at all surprised you have not heard of this. As I noted earlier, my experience has been that the most devout believers in christianity are usually the most poorly read.

...and why do you feel I am so "angry"? Is it because I require that my "beliefs" do not conflict or contradict one another and conform the to the standard rules of logic upon which Western Thought is based upon?

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo
reply to post by milominderbinder

 

Why are you so pro-choice? I think that's a good question... What do you get out of others suffering?

I mean you are playing devils advocate with me... Supporting the wrong side over and over and over.

What do you get out of this? Why must you continue to preach for the killing of the unborn?

There is NOTHING wrong with the pro choice side of this argument. You need to take responsibility for your own life and your own relationships and stop trying to tell women what is right or wrong. Those are personal decisions that are not yours to make.

By the way, I don't remember anyone asking for your opinion on the matter in the first place. Making a thread attacking a woman's choice may attract both side of this argument. But, nobody is going to ask you, or refer to this thread, before making the choice to end a pregnancy. That is a woman's right, it's not yours to take. And no, the unborn don't have or deserve to have, rights above a mothers.

Nobody is going to be swayed against pro-choice because of your passion and constant nagging on about this argument. If you ask me why I'm so pro-choice, I'll tell you because my priority is on the quality of life, that is already living, not on the sacrifice of the living for someone's moral, bible thumping high ground.

edit on 2-5-2012 by windword because: (no reason given)

Precisely. Standard-issue christian hypocrisy. When somebody tries to convert a christian or legislatively remove their rights they are being "persecuted". When they do it to somebody else...then it's "god's will".

You know...because they all have a god on speed dial...despite the fact that they book which they profess to believe in states pretty clearly that false prophets and those who communicate with the spirit realm get a one-way ticket to "hell" because it makes jesus angry, or whatever.

Thus...the only way to reconcile this logic would be to declare that every single "believer" who thinks "god" talks to them or through them is ALSO a prophet or saint of some sort.

Unfortunately...if that's the case...then it also undermines the idea that any of the figures in "the bible" are really any holier than John Smith walking down the street.

However...if that's really true...then why bother reading "the bible" anyways? Given that there is no "Book of Jesus" and that all of the books were written by "prophets" who have the same direct telephone line to god as you do...then why not just write your bible and/or gospel...right? You're a prophet no different than Jeremiah or Mark...right?

I know, I know..."that's different". LOL.

well if you don't believe in my God, I say you don't believe in God...
Because there is only one God.

Spoken like a true Taliban. Tell me...which book of The Koran is your favorite?

Originally posted by igor_ats

Originally posted by Maslo
As a pro-choice, I agree completely with this point. If I viewed abortion as murder, I could not make any compromise as well (and I dont for late-term abortions).

Thats why I think the key to abortion debate is to convince the opponent that abortion is completely different from murder and is not an immoral act in itself.

You can view abortion as immoral and still not murder. In fact that opinion was somewhat what the Church had about 150 years ago. The Church of England (Protestant) follows this view. They don't say it's a moral virtue, but they don't think it's murder. Which is one of the big reasons why abortion is legal in England (Protestant) and not in Ireland (Catholic).

Pro-life Christians get really upset with this little factoid. "They're not real Christians!"

That's right. All 3,300+ sects and cults of the world's christians each are certain that THEY are the "real ones". Incredible that not a single one of them ever seems to allow for the mathematical probability that they only have less than a .030303030303030% of being "correct" by the sheer virtue of the numbers themselves. And yes...the decimal point IS in the correct spot. That is 3 one-hundreths of 1 per cent.

Originally posted by selfharmonise
reply to post by windword

 

Can I just applaud you - in all seriousness - on a beautifully honest response?

Thank you for opening up to us with the fact that you have made this decision yourself. This must have been very difficult for you.

I really admire that you are coming from a position of experience.

I think the prolife movement are utterly rabid and irrational.

Most of their opinions also appear to be linked to some form of fundamentalist Christian belief that's very old testament.

I cannot have children, but we foster children who I believe would have had better lives if they had not been born.

We can only love them, but they come from such damaged backgrounds that often by age 3-5 they are destined to follow their parents' lives...no matter how positive an influence a carer or adopter can make.

Their souls would have been better born into a body which was truly wanted.

I would not wish these childrens' suffering on anyone.

And thank you!!

I LOVE the fact that throughout this entire thread NOT ONCE did you view my criticism of the realities of adoption and foster homes as being a personal attack of any kind against you. Because it ISN'T. You are doing GOOD THINGS. As you noted...these kids are ALREADY damaged and unwanted. YOU are simply doing what you can do to ease the suffering that HAS ALREADY been visited upon these kids, through no choice of their own....and it's no easy task.

However...this is very different than actually wanting to pass legislation to create MORE of these kids only so their parents can cast them aside and society promptly turn their backs on them the VERY SECOND it means raising their precious taxes or socializing their medicine.

...AND THANK YOU FOR YOUR EFFORTS IN AT LEAST TRYING TO MEND WHAT IS BROKEN INSIDE OF THESE KIDS.

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo
May I remind you guys I'm on the other side of the isle. Pro-Life for a good reason.

I also have had abortions, and I wish the option was never available. It prays upon the weak and naive.

May God bless the souls that have been lost due to the barbaric practice of abortion and my negligence. May the women suffering from abortion be pain free and live a happy life. I pray for all, including those that take their unborn baby's life...

We all need prayers.


God Bless you all even the people that believe pro-choice is the right way... Maybe with this blessing we can reach a common ground of morality and common sense.

God acts through all of us, Even though we disagree he's showing us other peoples minds and perspective on life.

May the endless murdering of the unborn be stopped, I will pray for it.

If you believe in God , I hope you do, there is still hope for you and others.

God bless you all, I will respond to more comments later.

Lastly my wife, who has had the abortions, will never be the same. She has had suicidal tendencies and self destructive behaviors because of the abortions. And also a not so nice butterfly effect has happened because of it. I will never give up on her though for the pain I've put her through and the choices I influenced her to make.

May God take pity on my soul as I am only a weak human. Pray for me friends.

Wow. I'm truly impressed and touched yoyo. I truly commend and compliment you on your concern and dedication to your wife. In my personal opinion, those statements are truly compassionate and I believe you when you say that you want to help ease her anguish over the matter. And I am in no way being sarcastic.

While we will likely never agree on the subject, I personally find your story is one of the strongest cases for pro-choice to be the strongest argument yet. Note...I'm not trying to change your opinions about the matter or twist your words. I'm just saying that that's the lesson I get from your story.

You observe the fallout from the abortions that your wife had and find it to be a horrible, horrible, amount of suffering. You sort of hinted at the idea that you carry or feel a great deal of guilt for influencing her about the matter.

Admittedly...I'm coming from the child's side of the spectrum. That very same mental and emotional anguish, guilt, hopelessness, and low self-esteem that your wife has experienced and that you have helped through is very, very much like what selfharmonise experiences on a daily basis with the very troubled and damaged kids she has adopted. (Forgive me if I speak out of turn and/or you feel if I am speaking for you selfharmonise. I'm just sort of putting 2+2 together based upon the information in this thread alone. I don't pretend to really know what it has been like for you...and feel free to correct me if I am wrong)

Likewise...I'm very familiar MYSELF with the child's end of things. As stated previously...my wife and cousin were both adopted and it affects them to this day. I WASN'T adopted...but I got to grow up in a house where nobody gave two sh&^ts if I lived or died...right up until the day I was turned out on the street THE DAY AFTER I graduated high school, despite graduating with honors at 17 yrs old because I skipped a grade earlier, having worked two jobs since I was 14 yrs old, having a perfect attendance record in high school, and only ONCE got a $70 underage drinking ticket. A lot of people would have considered that to be a damn near "perfect" kid...my thanks was "get the hell out and don't come back"...no surprise...I was not wanted since the day I was born. Plain and simple. It didn't matter what I did or didn't do...I wasn't going to change their minds or their resentment towards me. Sure...things are better now...but given the option of having to do it again or to not have to deal with any of it...I'd bow out early EVERY SINGLE TIME. My wife wouldn't miss me...because she wouldn't have known me. It would have just saved a whole lot of needless and pointless suffering.

So my conclusion on the matter is that irregardless of whether you are talking/legislating a woman into or out of an abortion...SOMEBODY is going to be in a whole hell of a lot of misery for a long, long, LONG time.

...and I'll have no part of it.

That's just me. I respect your stance and feelings about the matter. But I hope you can see why I feel that way. To me...forcing an unwanted child into this world just shifts all the troubles it caused your wife right down the line to the one who is purportedly the "innocent" one.

reply to post by milominderbinder


I understand your stance, but I still don't agree. I think we should help women that get pregnant throughout the pregnancy and at the end of it, If they chose to give it up. Let them give it up.

I am convinced that these abortion clinics are in on the population reduction agenda... Targeting minorities and the poor. And to me that's just not right... I see how you think it's right, but I still can't justify ending a life for greed and I don't think I'll ever be able to understand it...

reply to post by yoyoyoyo


While I feel this was most likely written to be inflammatory, I'll give my two cents. I think abortion is incredibly touchy for alot of people I can understand why it would be wanted in the case of rape or something but I personally feel that you would be ending an innocent life either way. That child, regardless of the father, never harmed a living soul and now won't get the chance to grow to be someone with the potential to change the world. I do however understand that many people don't share that view and that, as a man, I cannot "truly" understand what it would feel like to have something like that happen to me. It is a choice I am very thankful I will never have to make. However I also feel that if the father of a child, not in the case of rape or something, wants to keep the child and is willing to absolve the mother of financial and personal responsibility he should have a say as well. It is a horrible feeling to know that your potential child was murdered, in my eyes at least, by someone who didn't want it, instead of being allowed to live a long, loving life with someone who did. Anyway, I'm done, but this is another instance where morality is very clear on not killing another human being but society deems it acceptable.

Originally posted by MetalandMayhem
reply to post by yoyoyoyo

 

While I feel this was most likely written to be inflammatory, I'll give my two cents. I think abortion is incredibly touchy for alot of people I can understand why it would be wanted in the case of rape or something but I personally feel that you would be ending an innocent life either way. That child, regardless of the father, never harmed a living soul and now won't get the chance to grow to be someone with the potential to change the world. I do however understand that many people don't share that view and that, as a man, I cannot "truly" understand what it would feel like to have something like that happen to me. It is a choice I am very thankful I will never have to make. However I also feel that if the father of a child, not in the case of rape or something, wants to keep the child and is willing to absolve the mother of financial and personal responsibility he should have a say as well. It is a horrible feeling to know that your potential child was murdered, in my eyes at least, by someone who didn't want it, instead of being allowed to live a long, loving life with someone who did. Anyway, I'm done, but this is another instance where morality is very clear on not killing another human being but society deems it acceptable.

As a male I hear what your saying about not having a say...however compelling women to give birth against their will is pretty much the definition of slavery, isn't it?

Personally...I think the big trade-off is that when you find a WILLING partner to procreate with...you and I only have to make 1am runs to the grocery store for pickles, maple syrup, and ice cream as opposed to the 9 months of extreme discomfort, oceans of personality-altering hormones, and 8-24 hours of pretty much the most excruciating pain the human body can experience under natural circumstances.

If you ask me...men "not having a say in it" is getting off pretty damn easy.