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Is this evidence that free-will of action and law of attraction does not exist, if not please refute

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posted on Apr, 8 2012 @ 10:59 AM
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This video talks about experiments done. The people's brains already made their decision and yet people were still thinking about what choice they wanted to make. Sub-consciously, the choice was made instantly, but people were consciously thinking about their choice.

This means that you brain already tells you what you are going to do but you have the free-will to think about it but you WILL do what the brain asked of you.

This means that all of your choices are already determined but your thoughts and emotions aren't.

Do not just say "it isn't true", please watch the video and refute the video using reasoning and perhaps evidence if you have any.





posted on Apr, 8 2012 @ 11:31 AM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


I'll refute it by saying you are not just a body or conscious mind. Part of you knows this. Not the part that's conscious.

Do you remember the matrix? the part where the Oracle says something like "don't worry about it." and Neo's like "what?" as he knocks over the vase. "Sorry." Oracle: "I told you not to worry about it."

Neo says something like "how did you know that would happen? could I have changed it?"
Oracle points to ceiling plaque that says something like "Know Thyself."
She says: "You've already made your choices, now you have to understand why."

Found some of it:


Neo: But if you already know, how can I make a choice?
The Oracle: Because you didn't come here to make the choice, you've already made it. You're here to try to understand *why* you made it. I thought you'd have figured that out by now.


I know free will exists, but maybe you are right that it doesn't exist on this level. That's fine with me, I still picked it, hahaha. I AM.


I should also say that time doesn't go in a line. It IS and always Will Be. So don't get hung up on things happening before or after they shuold by common logic. I have freewill.
edit on 4/8/2012 by Dustytoad because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 8 2012 @ 11:37 AM
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Originally posted by arpgme
This means that you brain already tells you what you are going to do but you have the free-will to think about it but you WILL do what the brain asked of you.


In this it appears you identify the brain and the conscious thought as two separate. Written as if the brain commands action that conscious thought may deny if conscious thought were to act of its own volition. Describing conscious thought as a slave to the brain.




This means that all of your choices are already determined but your thoughts and emotions aren't.


A paradox? What exactly are you if you are not you?


Listened to most of the video. Cogitate. Excogitate. I WILL.



posted on Apr, 8 2012 @ 11:38 AM
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The normal process for exercising free will is to consider options and do a cost benefit analysis. This entails believing or imagining each possible choice, and working out the what ifs. Love believes all things, so the story goes, which means that a good or loving response delves into all the options.

In the studies of brain activity in decision making, the brain choice was only actually made about 60% of the time. What they measured was the brain going through the cost-benefit analyses. This evidence is therefore consistent with normal free will thinking. The hypothesis is rendered plausible by the overwhelming evidence in favor the truth of biblical theology: scientific, historical, authoritative, and artistic.

If you have never made a rational choice, you ought to try it. Feels good, natural, like the way it is supposed to be. It's called freedom, and those who have experienced it will die to do it as much as they can.



posted on Apr, 8 2012 @ 11:45 AM
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reply to post by emberscott
 


Ok, let me rephrase, the study suggests this:

You have already made your choices sub-consciously before you were aware of them consciously.


You can think and feel an emotion toward and action, but sub-consciously you already KNOW what you are going to do. So there is no free-will, if that part of you sub-consciously is saying that you will do it, you will, no matter how much you don't want to do it consciously.



posted on Apr, 8 2012 @ 11:49 AM
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I think about this alot. I always tell people who struggle with anxiety or stress and depression. "We control our minds , our minds do not control us." What does this really mean. It means we all have the choice to stop and consider our choices. We have the power to control our natural instincts. We have the power to shape our minds any way we choose. We are not prisoners of our sub consious thoughts.
It's funny how humans all have the exact same brains, that work in the exact same way. There is no difference between the bio mechanics that run your brain from the ones that run my brain. Over six million brains that are all built the exact same way, and use the same bio mechanics to work in the exact same way. But for some reason we are all utterly and completely different. How is this possible? Why do six billion copies of the exact same machine all produce completely different results?
Human behaviour is fairly predictable and we do all at some point do things and act in ways that are very similar.
But I think this is the instictive aspect of the brain that allows us to all fucntion in a similar way. But where does the seperation of consiousness and mind occur that makes us all so different? What is that mechanism that makes me so different from you, and the person next to you and so on. It's like making six billion copies of the exact same piece of paper on the same copier. Each piece of paper looks exactly the same as the one before it each created with the exact same blueprint on it. But for what ever reason after the copies have been made each piece of paper comes out completely different from the one next to it.
This topic is fascinating and very mysterious.



posted on Apr, 8 2012 @ 11:55 AM
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Does this mean I'm already or on the brink of death and what i see transpire in my life is going by in slow motion, and since there is no will to understand this life as it passes, i can only question, who am I, then what am I left with since the question to understand myself requires my affirmation.

Law of attraction is karma at work. You will always be around those who are like you if you are aware or not. And with choices, you can alter your karma. Though I could be wrong.

Ω



posted on Apr, 8 2012 @ 12:16 PM
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I guess a response really depends on whether you think consciousness is some spiritual entity or we are highly complex living machines. I fall into the second category and think of us as programmable computers. I think humans have the ability to reprogram the way their mind works and think that is the fundamental difference between animals and us. I would say if we had free-will there would be no murderers or "evil" people and that no one would ever have to say sorry. Have you ever hurt someone you didn't mean to? You really did, but your "thinking" mind knew better. We can't say we have zero free-will, but you also can't say we are nothing but free-will. We are machines beholden to our bodies and environment, whether social or physical, but the machine is capable of reprogramming itself. I don't think you can separate our conscious mind from the sub-conscious because there is no separation. We are a mixture of both instinct and an amazing ability to map out different scenarios almost instantly and pick the one that best fits with our "base programming."
Why are some more easy to persuade to kill than others? Why are some more easy to enrage then others? We are just a mixture of "base programming," like our culture, family, basically our entire environment, and an ability to think for ourselves. I think free-will is over rated and given too much credit. We are slaves to our minds and our bodies and our world. We can only act within certain boundaries. If complete free-will existed, I doubt anyone would say sorry or hurt another, or even live on this planet. It is hard for me to write what I am thinking, but hopefully I've spoken to someone who understands. I really liked the Oracle from the Matrix post. It is along the lines of what I am thinking.



posted on Apr, 8 2012 @ 02:25 PM
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Originally posted by KillThePoor
I guess a response really depends on whether you think consciousness is some spiritual entity or we are highly complex living machines. I fall into the second category and think of us as programmable computers. I think humans have the ability to reprogram the way their mind works and think that is the fundamental difference between animals and us. I would say if we had free-will there would be no murderers or "evil" people and that no one would ever have to say sorry. Have you ever hurt someone you didn't mean to? You really did, but your "thinking" mind knew better. We can't say we have zero free-will, but you also can't say we are nothing but free-will. We are machines beholden to our bodies and environment, whether social or physical, but the machine is capable of reprogramming itself. I don't think you can separate our conscious mind from the sub-conscious because there is no separation. We are a mixture of both instinct and an amazing ability to map out different scenarios almost instantly and pick the one that best fits with our "base programming."
Why are some more easy to persuade to kill than others? Why are some more easy to enrage then others? We are just a mixture of "base programming," like our culture, family, basically our entire environment, and an ability to think for ourselves. I think free-will is over rated and given too much credit. We are slaves to our minds and our bodies and our world. We can only act within certain boundaries. If complete free-will existed, I doubt anyone would say sorry or hurt another, or even live on this planet. It is hard for me to write what I am thinking, but hopefully I've spoken to someone who understands. I really liked the Oracle from the Matrix post. It is along the lines of what I am thinking.


Its wise to consider both aspects - yes humans are programmable and yes they are sentient nonphysical entities which are like the voltage source to the machine...

Whilst the mind may make decisions independent of the ego's illusion of choice there are still variables and circumstances influenced and defined by choices of others which then lead to the hand of cards oneself is dealt. for instance oneself may make a decision based on the content presented or not presented by others bit because free will to incarnate where and when occurs for all then the mix for everyones choices are thus subject to variables.... this is the preconceived contract level where people chose to be overtly takers or givers... and then the roll changes at some point either thru death or upheaval of the playing field in the same lifetime lack of resources etc. which cause the automatic choice making (that would continue if the provocative source are available) to cease once they are no longer present

I do feel that there is a level of sentience separate from the machine which can re-hack the mental commitment of the dense brain wiring and it usually happens through spiritual experiences which cause those to question the automated responses of the physical brains reaction to stimulus

There are those who have already committed to a destined path and there are those who are exploited by some of those who have committed prior to others coming in. This means those exploited have tendency to be unable to make a commitment of absolute unbending intent that will always lead them to respond in a preordained manner... this means they can actually bypass the react factor to any situation...and rewrite the program which in a sense is having free will to change the outcome of those who have committed to less life enhancing paths. buddhist monks etc are an example of this. They are devoid of ego centric intent - not advocating this as the absolute destination however but only as an example of what those who question are capable of... One must remain with some sort of input to the rest of the culture if they are to make a difference for many.



posted on Apr, 8 2012 @ 02:49 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


Long ago our ancestors learned how to become immortal by placing their consciousness into computers. That knowledge for some reason was lost here on earth as well as the knowledge about reincarnation and how the system works. See Glorification of the Eucharist painting 1600.

A signal to the pineal gland so they say. With object oriented processing done by the brain, based on a generic signal that is from a program that is useful across a vast network in space due to its generic nature. For instance no need for taking long term memories with you since places and names will not be relevant or in context elsewhere. So long term memories are stored locally.

So how do we know it is a signal? Well I have to qualify the we because different people have different methods of determining that.

So Dr. Persinger has a helmet. That is how he proves it.

I can also quote Consciousness without A Cerebral Cortex a a Challenge for Neuroscience and medicine (PDF)

So basically what I am saying is that there is a large quantum computer doing some of the processing as part of being human. And it is in contact with all brains, uniting them into a collective unconscious, and it prompts our subconscious and acts as a subconscious, and super-conscious, and that is merely how humans work.

And as such, the computer system itself having an OS, (operating system) and that OS, is conscious and has free will, it can mess with these types of tests and might do that for fun.

But when you play lead guitar, there is no seven second gap. The fact also that you are making a decision inside a computer elsewhere based on its programming, does not mean that you do not have free will.

Since you as an individual are a personality record, that exists within that system, and the system uses your personality file as a decision filter, any decision using that filter was made by you. The reason being that your personality file contains a behavior set, and only decisions made in accordance with your behavior set can be made by you.

Want an off the wall example of free will and how flexible it is? Santa has free will.

Santa has free will because if a child finds a piece of coal in their stocking, you will say Santa put it there.
Now it is there because you were using Santa's decision filter, and according to his filter, under certain criteria, a child should get a piece of coal in their stocking.

Ipso facto, Santa did it. By proxy, but still it is attributed to him.

So then why the delay? Why the seven seconds? When the decision has already been made? Well that is a mystery, but it is not due to lack of free will.



posted on Apr, 8 2012 @ 03:17 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


I'm confused by the title. Why do we need evidence that the law of attraction does not exist? Don't we first need evidence that it does exist?



posted on Apr, 8 2012 @ 04:44 PM
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Originally posted by Rocketman7
reply to post by arpgme
 

So then why the delay? Why the seven seconds? When the decision has already been made? Well that is a mystery, but it is not due to lack of free will.


It can be explained as the other way round... i.e. everything is happening 7 seconds faster than we think so there is a lag in the content of which is experienced, but in actuality part of oneself is always 7 seconds ahead of the illusion of time-lag which translates as sensory experiences in the same moment (this fits into the eternal time paradox i.e. all events of an infinite many happening as eternal moments in their own right which are then strung together as linearised experiences) ...

there is a certain degree of certain probability which is destined to occur for the most part... so the higher self stays at the fore front by making the lower self process certainties slower in the same moment, as tho they are 7 seconds behind where ones total self is in the now – when really both occur at the same time but with a filtered illusion of the prior preordained moment playing out as the sensory experience in the same real time moment as the higher self. this allows the novel probabilities which are less certain and abstract to become known before hand so one may get a cleared idea of which game changing decisions are ideal to choose when they pop up.

This is where some sense of deja vu occurs, the higher self can see all the probabilities which are optionable in those moments but it chooses the highest path already so that one may feel the synchronicity of which one is best when that moment of choice filters down into the 7 seconds delay prior to the higher having chosen it as a suggested imprint of potential to be aspired to... If one does not choose that path then the preordained events continue and then a new higherself aspect emerges with the lowerself in accordance with that choice and waits for the next window of opportunity...all the whilst the other higherself continue son in the chosen relaity whilst an alternate lowerself merges with it in embrace of that choice ( many worlds and possible selves/scenarios etc)

those choices are then experienced as dreams whilst the residual entaglement with former aspects of lower and higher selves (on new divergent paths) are still related as resonances of the same multidimensional self. The lower choices will play out faster by comparison than the higher from the higher's perspective cos lower timelines of micro-cosmoses (the quntum foam) occur faster by comparison to the objective cosm of the self who embraced chocies of the higherself.

Thus eventually the lower aspects catch up and re-merge with the higher after the higher self awakens from dreams in which many lower events occur in one nights sleep. Sometimes these cosms can cross over and bleed into one another at th elevel of the objecive higher selfs awrness - or even have different laws of physics arise at some point - hence the trigers which make one aware they are “dreaming” all the whilst to the lower selves these abstractions do not occur as they experince it all as relative and isolated to their individual paths.

Like wise as with all described above.. any lower self is a subjective higher self and vice versa until one moves into the “god” mind timeline of infinite paradise possibilities... this is a divergent plain of existence where infinite portals from any cosmos bubble in the multiverse line up along the many inifinite variations of resonant duplicate events of its endless pprogression of which resonate with th epositiv epolarity events of the absolute choices of the higher self when embraced totally



posted on Apr, 8 2012 @ 04:47 PM
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reply to post by Spiratio
 


This unifies both the scientific asumption for deja vu as well as the mystic explanation that many attest in that it relates to dreams... it is both the result of a delay in something alredy experinced so there is a glitch inside where one feel slike they experinced it bifore and it is also due to the eternal time / dreams etc. essentially all has been experienced in every passing moment... it is the deja vu “brain glitch” which creates the void of netralisation where tow idetical moments collaps as one. The old potential is then transmuted into the new potetial timeline which results as ones destination after the psych has merged the enregy of both experinces into the new singular event of which has been both dreamt of and also lived by oneself somehwere (th ere is a time and a place for all possiblities if they are chosen) so in that moment of which the collapsing event occurs the transparnecy of the eternal progression where all is known as having been experinced is recalled and the self has no distinguishable referenc point form the memory retention of the lowerself who has not lived the event before an the higher self who has dreamt of the lowerself merging into the new timeline at a point after it (the higher) itself has already experienced it in everyday awareness . Both lower and higher selves are simultaneously one in recall - from being dreamt of and the other experiencing the same event for the first time at the same i.e. the crossroads of two cosmoses which share the same event but which have different outcome stories (potentially even different pasts to some extent aswell depending on the divergence factor – hence history can be and is essentially a myth many books that exist from the past may be quantum compilations of many different timelines synergeising into a consensus reality)



posted on Apr, 8 2012 @ 04:52 PM
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Originally posted by Spiratio

It can be explained as the other way round... i.e. everything is happening 7 seconds faster than we think so there is a lag in the content of which is experienced, but in actuality part of oneself is always 7 seconds ahead of the illusion of time-lag which translates as sensory experiences in the same moment (this fits into the eternal time paradox i.e. all events of an infinite many happening as eternal moments in their own right which are then strung together as linearised experiences) ...


That does not explain why when a person plays lead guitar and plays along with other musicians, how in milliseconds he responds to their musical cues, such as following a drummer and base and rhythm guitar and vocals and echoes, and feedback, and all the rest.

Want an example you can see 11 year old hot shot play guitar hero. He is responding to visual and auditory clues with lightning fast reflexes.

If you were suggesting that the entire universe is 7 seconds behind, you might as well make an equally silly claim that the test equipment is 6 and a half seconds fast.



posted on Apr, 8 2012 @ 04:57 PM
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Is this evidence that free-will of action and law of attraction does not exist, if not please refute


free will of action does exist.

and so does attraction/manifestation.

it has to be experienced to be believed.... and it is my belief that EARTH is an environment in which we learn to master the art of manifestation ... because it in next dimension (4D or heaven) we experience instant thought manifestion. (IMO)

imagine being in nirvana heaven with people who constantly manifest evil thoughts.

thats why we come here to earth school to learn the difference between good and evil.

in 3D space/time there is that "TIME DELAY" between the thought in the brain and the actions of the body which gives the impression of "free will"

in 4D space/time there is no time delay it is "instant" manifestions of thoughts.

(((( this is just my humble opinion based on actual experiences that cannot be proven to naysayers or paid shills ))))



posted on Apr, 8 2012 @ 05:08 PM
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reply to post by Rocketman7
 


No no - the selfs experience of the universe is 7 seconds behind - not the universe itself... so everyone else in the band or the computer game are on cue due to relative synchronisation... what I wrote made no difference on this factor. Maybe you could read what I wrote again to really see what its implying. Its rather abstract linearisation of nonlinear concepts so bear in mind reading it twice or more will yield greater comprehension. The end complements the beginning and the beginning like wise the end.




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