Me vs The Virulent Marine

This starts with a story about my little brother. He wanted to join the military as a younger kid. I responded by telling him that I would lock him in a basement or a closet until he was 25 if he tried.

I meant every word with all my heart.

Fast forward to a few weeks ago. My brother has made friends with a guy that was in the Marine corps for a while. He comes from a military family and seems like the kind of guy that the military is right for. When my brother brought up what I'd told him, the guy asked me about my stance on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

My thing with my younger brother joining the Armed Forces was always that he doesn't have the nature for it. He doesn't hold up well under pressure, has a very rigid moral code, and is just an all around sensitive kid.

I mentioned that he doesn't really have the nature for that sort of thing. This guy countered that it was really just about him being immature and that the Armed Forces would teach him discipline (an undeniable fact, I will give him that). He continued on in a rant about me just being overprotective because it's my baby brother.

My reply was straight to the point. I told him that it wasn't about immaturity. It was about the fact that I knew the kid doesn't have the nature to be molded into a person who could kill children and still remain halfway sane and functional. I told him that the fact that I know my brother doesn't have that ability even though he's a very young male makes me extremely proud.

My view is that having that level of conscientiousness and empathy is something to be proud of, especially in a young guy of his generation. I think it's important that such maturity is respected.

More so, I think it's important that it's recognized that there are certain people that are just not cut out for the military. It really disturbs me that this military guy was really disrespectful of that idea and just brushed it off as immaturity.

I mean, seriously, does the portion of American society that has been in the military really think that everybody (well, everybody with a penis) is cut out for the American military? Surely not.

Originally posted by AnIntellectualRedneck
This starts with a story about my little brother. He wanted to join the military as a younger kid. I responded by telling him that I would lock him in a basement or a closet until he was 25 if he tried.

I meant every word with all my heart.

Fast forward to a few weeks ago. My brother has made friends with a guy that was in the Marine corps for a while. He comes from a military family and seems like the kind of guy that the military is right for. When my brother brought up what I'd told him, the guy asked me about my stance on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

My thing with my younger brother joining the Armed Forces was always that he doesn't have the nature for it. He doesn't hold up well under pressure, has a very rigid moral code, and is just an all around sensitive kid.

I mentioned that he doesn't really have the nature for that sort of thing. This guy countered that it was really just about him being immature and that the Armed Forces would teach him discipline (an undeniable fact, I will give him that). He continued on in a rant about me just being overprotective because it's my baby brother.

My reply was straight to the point. I told him that it wasn't about immaturity. It was about the fact that I knew the kid doesn't have the nature to be molded into a person who could kill children and still remain halfway sane and functional. I told him that the fact that I know my brother doesn't have that ability even though he's a very young male makes me extremely proud.

My view is that having that level of conscientiousness and empathy is something to be proud of, especially in a young guy of his generation. I think it's important that such maturity is respected.

More so, I think it's important that it's recognized that there are certain people that are just not cut out for the military. It really disturbs me that this military guy was really disrespectful of that idea and just brushed it off as immaturity.

I mean, seriously, does the portion of American society that has been in the military really think that everybody (well, everybody with a penis) is cut out for the American military? Surely not.

edit on 8-4-2012 by AnIntellectualRedneck because: (no reason given)

Virulent is an interesting choice to describe this guy. At first i thought you misspelled violent. Being an ATS my self I would assume you handed him his arse on 911, iraq war ect. but as i expect discussing these topics with a jar head would be akin to ramming your head into a brick wall no offense to any ex military on here but jar head military programing seems to be strongest at avoiding any type of logic on these topics

Originally posted by AnIntellectualRedneck
I mean, seriously, does the portion of American society that has been in the military really think that everybody (well, everybody with a penis) is cut out for the American military? Surely not.

edit on 8-4-2012 by AnIntellectualRedneck because: (no reason given)

4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism.

Ruling elites always identified closely with the military and the industrial infrastructure that supported it. A disproportionate share of national resources was allocated to the military, even when domestic needs were acute. The military was seen as an expression of nationalism, and was used whenever possible to assert national goals, intimidate other nations, and increase the power and prestige of the ruling elite.
-- The Fourteen Defining Characteristics of Fascism.

The Marine Corps in particular, are not only taught to view themselves, but are also somewhat viewed by the external society, as quite literally being the epitome of humanity. Truthfully, the above quote notwithstanding, it's an assertion which, from what I've seen of them, I myself tend to have difficulty disagreeing with. I have deep, twisted, chronic psychological issues where the Marines are concerned, as well as concerning the fact that I'm not (and never can be) one of them.

The Corps, the Corps, all glory to the Corps! I don't think you know what the Marine Corps truly means to me. It has a bit to do with my father; no, he was not a Marine, God no. Maybe something to do with growing up in Orlando, Florida, and Los Angeles, seeing first the ersatz "Hollywood Boulevard" of Universal Studios East, then the even phonier real thing out west. Glitter and tinsel. . . but what was real?

Everything in my life rang as hollow as the boulevard until I found my core in the Corps.

Honor wasn't just something you did to credit cards. A lie wasn't called spin control, and spin was something you only put on a cue ball. Yeah, right, you think you know more about it than I? I know it was all BS, even in the Corps. I know the service was riddled up and down with lying sacks of dung, like everything else. "There is no cause so noble it will not attract fuggheads;" one of those sci-fi writers Arlene is always shoving at me, David Niven or something.

But God damn it, at least we say the word honor without laughing. At least we have a code--"I will not lie, cheat, or steal, nor tolerate those among us who do"--even if individuals don't always live up to it. At least it's there to reach for, even if our grasp falls far short. At least decency has a legal definition, right there in the Universal Code of Military Justice! At least respect means more than leaving the other guy's graffiti alone. At least we do more crap by six A.M. than most of you civilians do all day. At least the Corps is the Corps, semper fidelis--damn it, we know who we are and why we are! Do you?
-- Flynn Taggart

So it becomes an issue of avoiding him going to unjust foreign wars (and I agree that they are completely unjust, myself) on the one hand, with him potentially joining an organisation which could genuinely help him maximise his potential as a human being in a number of positive ways, on the other.

As a civilian, my greatest fear has always been reaching old age, and in the last half hour or so before I die, experiencing enormous doubt and ambivalence over whether or not my life has been a complete waste. Over whether or not I've ever done anything, or been able to do anything that has been meaningful; that has contributed positively to the lives of others, or has, quite simply, justified or granted me fundamental permission for my existence.

Soldiers generally don't have that problem.

For a jarhead, he doesn't sound that bad.

There are lots of places for people in the military. Not all of them, in fact maybe 90% of them, do not involve rucking up, jumping out of a perfectly good plane in the middle of the night, meeting new and exciting people of foreign lands, and killing some of them before smashing their nice things and subverting their populace.

reply to post by petrus4


My uncle, with a similar nature, who went into the Army Reserves (forget about the more hardcore stuff like active duty or the Marines) tried to commit suicide three times in boot camp and has struggled with severe depression the rest of his life.

My brother doesn't have the nature for the military to help him maximize who he is as a person. I recognize that it does help some folks, but some people just simply do not have the nature for it. I mean, some people are just too sensitive for that kind of brutal training.

Originally posted by AnIntellectualRedneck
My brother doesn't have the nature for the military to help him maximize who he is as a person. I recognize that it does help some folks, but some people just simply do not have the nature for it. I mean, some people are just too sensitive for that kind of brutal training.

edit on 8-4-2012 by AnIntellectualRedneck because: (no reason given)

I'm not disagreeing. I don't have the nature for it, either; even if I had been physically capable...which I never was either.

I guess I've just always blamed myself for that. I probably shouldn't.

reply to post by AnIntellectualRedneck


I never perceived Army boot as being that brutal. After the first week they generally quit screaming at you and it's smooth sailing. Then again, Dad was a Ranger battalion NCO and I grew up with all this stuff, so it was more like going to summer camp with one of Dad's buddies as the CIT than a big readjustment.

It did make me popular. "Ok, who wants to go over tying a Swiss seat again without the screaming part?"

Few people have the right mindset for the military. Which is why they use other inducements to get them to join. It is one of the reasons we have monuments and such dedicated to our armed forces. Because when you have engaged in killing someone else a part of you changes and never really comes back it is a true sacrifice. This is also why they use words like duty, honor and loyalty and appeal to peoples sense of nationalism in recruitment drives. It is why the enemy is usually depicted as some subhuman being. All of these things are designed by their nature to disassociate you from the fact your job is to either directly kill or be a party to killing another human being.

reply to post by AnIntellectualRedneck
You are being overprotective of your brother. And, I think, you're a little scared of what he might accomplish without your help, or what he might become without your interference. Threatening to use force against him (telling him you'd lock him up), running down his capacity for self-actualization, sabotaging his attempts to attain what he wants, and talking down his capabilities to others, these things tell me exactly what kind of relationship you have.

Heh. Maybe it's your paternalistic "big brother knows best" attitude that pushed him toward the military in the first place? Maybe, deep down, he wants a bunch of big brothers telling him what he can and can't do, threatening to lock him up if he does something wrong? Maybe he desires advancement in the hierarchy, so he can be the big brother for a change?

reply to post by AnIntellectualRedneck


I totally get what you are saying about people having certain "natures" or dispositions for certain career paths...Plato touched upon this in "The Republic" (which is better than the Bible in my mind).

I know I do not have the disposition of a soldier.
I know I do not have the disposition of a businessman.
I have the disposition of a scholar.

The thing is, though you may know your brother does not have the disposition of a soldier...it is not something that you can decide for him. He must discover it for himself.

And there is the chance you could be wrong and your opinion of your brother's disposition could be a projection of your own disposition onto him.

But again, it is something he must discover for himself.

reply to post by FurvusRexCaeli


Read the bit I posted about my uncle with a very similar personality trying to commit suicide 3 times in Army Basic and go on about that tripe.

Truth is, I think my little brother can do just about anything. But he just don't have the nature for that kind of brutality. And, as I said, the fact that he doesn't have the nature to be molded into a man who can kill women and children and still be alright with himself makes me proud.

Proves he's a better person than I'll ever be.

Originally posted by AnIntellectualRedneck
I mean, seriously, does the portion of American society that has been in the military really think that everybody (well, everybody with a penis) is cut out for the American military? Surely not.

edit on 8-4-2012 by AnIntellectualRedneck because: (no reason given)

Well, I have not been in the military, so not sure how much my reply is worth to you. I do however have a husband who has been in the Marine Corps for 10 years, and an 18 year old stepdaughter (yes, daughter) who graduated the USMC boot camp just last month.

My stepdaughter is incredibly sensitive. She cried just about every day of boot camp. The first words in her first letter home were "HELP, I've made a terrible mistake". (Something along those lines). Interestingly, as she progressed through boot camp, her letters clearly showed a growing change in her. She was still homesick, and at times still unsure of her decision. But she also was becoming a true adult, with discipline. As you mentioned, there is no denying that the discipline can be amazing.

I do not think that your concerns were immature. I do think that a lot of people are afraid that the military will change a person on a fundamental level (I feared the same thing for my stepdaughter). What I have realized though, is that at the most basic level our loved ones in the military are STILL the person they were when they went in. They are instilled with all the things we don't like (such as how to kill), but there is also an emphasis on good characteristics as well, such as with the USMC: honor, courage, and commitment. I have seen these characteristics grow in my stepdaughter exponentially as she has progressed through training, and I still think that she is the beautiful, sensitive person she was when she went in.

On the other hand, my husband has seen three deployments (twice to Iraq, once to Afghanistan) and is leaving shortly for another duty in Afghanistan. He still embodies the core values of the USMC, even though he has become quite jaded with his job.

Bottom line, do I think that everyone is cut out for the military? No. But not because of sensitivity. I just think that people who are mentally unbalanced to begin with are most likely to not be cut out for it. Other than that, I think that it can be good for anyone.

*Personal Disclaimer: I support our troops, but our government lies.

Has he spoken of the job he wants in the Corps? Not everyone is infantry or in a combat related mos military occupational specialty. And not every Marines lusts for killing women and children either. You never know, if he is a smart person and can see through the crap then he might be a good one to have.

The Marine Corps has made a mistake by loosening the restrictions for entering service too much. It has allowed to many sociopaths and morons to enlist in the last few years and we are seeing the results of that with all of the incidents as of late. I can understand your worry though and if you or your brother have any questions feel free to ask me either in this thread or in a u2u. I, unllike a recruiter, won't lie to you.

reply to post by AnIntellectualRedneck


you know what get's to me? People who think the military is out fighting for your freedom which they are not. If the military was fighting for our freedoms they would be killing our politicians think about it. Voter fraud in the republican caucus, Pipa, Sopa, Crispa, the patriot act,NDAA.O yeah and when they kill politicians its always a good one JFK put us on the moon get's murdered he also stopped a M.A.D situation aka Cuban missile crisis.