Government now firing the first bullet from newly purchased guns and keeping records.

I was really shocked today when my grandpa showed me his new .22 caliber 1911 look alike pistol. It was a cool gun but was shocked me was a small envelope that came with the gun that had the shell from the first bullet that was fired from the gun when he ordered it before picking it up at the store. The writing on the envelope described the make and model of his fire arm and gave notice that the state had on file the matching bullet for his pistol. I live in Washington and my grandpa said it was some kind of new law. I guess in the future all of our weapons will be IDed on a database including the picture of what the bullets will look like coming out of your guns. Sounds like gun-control policy is inching it's way up...

I believe this was already posted on ATS, but you are correct, gun manufacturer's are now firing a round and keeping the slug for a forensic database. They're called "Ballistic Imaging" databases, and go by names like CoBIS (in New York), MD-IBIS (in Maryland), and CBIS (in California). These "fingerprints" are collected from the manufacturer for each new gun sale, although some manufacturer's supply the information voluntarily (like Glock). As I posted in that other thread, Glock even states why the collect these casings/slugs in the FAQ. More info her in my earlier post.

That shell is from the test fire that the factory conducts. Some states would require that you submit your pistol with that shell upon purchase to your local law enforcment for inspection. Michigan no longer requires this.

However that does not mean that there isn't someone in the factories recording the data from that tesfire and putting it in a centralized database. That would be the most effective way of going about it. It is another attack at our rights but at the same time any law abiding gun owner would not mind as they don't intend to use them for criminal activity and would immediately report them stolen if it were to happen.

Wow. That is strangely brilliant.

It's also hard to describe it as invasive. After all, if you're only using it for legal purposes, then your bullets shouldn't be showing up in police investigations.

I don't literally don't know what to think of this. I'm without a solid opinion....

Originally posted by Swing80s
I was really shocked today when my grandpa showed me his new .22 caliber 1911 look alike pistol. It was a cool gun but was shocked me was a small envelope that came with the gun that had the shell from the first bullet that was fired from the gun when he ordered it before picking it up at the store. The writing on the envelope described the make and model of his fire arm and gave notice that the state had on file the matching bullet for his pistol. I live in Washington and my grandpa said it was some kind of new law. I guess in the future all of our weapons will be IDed on a database including the picture of what the bullets will look like coming out of your guns. Sounds like gun-control policy is inching it's way up...

The last gun I bought in 2003 or 2004 came with the envelope containing the shell of the first bullet fired.

This is not new.

reply to post by usmc0311


To be clear though, it's a test firing at the factory for submission to the forensic database, not for quality control. They've only just started including these spent casings with new firearm purchases in the last several years, at no time previous have they sent along a single spent casing with a new firearm.

BTW this has been heavily discussed around all the firearm forums (like here), some still believe it's just manufacturer's quality control measure but I can assure that is not the case. It's strictly for those imaging databases - not that every state uses them (in fact I believe it's only down to MD, CA and NY now.)

My last purchases were in 1999, no envelope. But, I wouldn't have a problem with it as I have no plans on ever using my guns for criminal purposes. It may even be a slight deterrent to criminals, and useful in solving crimes.

ETA: They already have all my info from the purchase. It's not like the bullet is the only way to link my guns to me.

Des

I'll have to agree with this, while not 100%, its a great way to track down firearms that have been used in criminal activities.

It would also serve as a great deterrent to would be criminals that would engage in malicious activities with said firearm(s)

Well I hope the method of identifying and matching spent shells isn't flawed, because if so, a crime could be incorrectly traced back to you, regardless of the fact that you don't use it to commit crimes. I admit I know nothing of this science, but of all the millions of guns, does every single one leave an unmistakable unique fingerprint on the bullets it fires?

Its a good way to frame someone with a stolen gun..but most criminals are not that smart to do something like that anyway.

Originally posted by THE_PROFESSIONAL
Its a good way to frame someone with a stolen gun..but most criminals are not that smart to do something like that anyway.

Yeah. Would make it easier for someone to commit a murder. Someone who knows you are a gun owner could take your gun when you're not home, go out and shoot someone, then replace the gun back in your home. Police would blame you and courts would already have their proof that you committed the crime without having to do any real forensic work. Even though you really didn't commit the crime. This is scary.

This sounds good from a distance, but when you get closer you realize it has the potential to really be abused.

I know what you're thinking. "Well, if he's a good gun owner he'll keep it locked up at all times." But what if it's someone close to you?

pretty smart idea since most gun violence occurs with illegally purchased guns.

Remove 1 inch from the barrel and the ballistics marks change. if you have ever bought a old 98 mauser rifle many have had a drill or ream run about 1 inch down the barrel before they were imported to the US.

Many countries that had these old rifles did not want to take a chance that the rifle had been used in a war crime before they got the rifle and the rifle matched by ballistics in the US.

reply to post by GR1ill3d


The first thing is that it will not discourage crime. The vast majority of guns used in crimes are obtained illegally. That means that the gun will not trace back to the person using it, in the majority of cases. No state that uses one of these databases has seen a drop in gun related or violent crime because of the database.

Also, the database is pretty much pointless. Switch out the firing pin, give the gun a "fluff and buff," and then fire three hundred rounds. In the course of a single afternoon the entire "fingerprint" has been altered. Plus, factors like the stiffness of the primer and the powder load in the cartridge can change the way the round interacts with the other parts of the gun. So, the "ballistic fingerprint" changes with every shot.

As this is a conspiracy forum, i'll throw this in there....

What if it wasn't just one bullet fired from your nice shiney new weapon, but ten. Ten bullets fired from your gun, filed away nicely until needed. They say you have the first bullet fired in your envelope, but in fact they have a few more that they haven't told you about.

Would make a nice way to frame you for something, just incase you start becoming to much of a problem. Someone gets shot....oh look, they've found one of your fired bullets at the scene of the crime.

Just a thought.

CX.

Responsible gun owners shouldn't have to worry about this. The only people that would be worried about this kind of thing are people who plan on using their firearm in an illegal way.

Sorry, but it makes sense. Fact of the matter is, a person should do this themselves and keep the records so that if in the event one does get accused of some misdeed, they have the records to prove their innocence. One could argue that they may mix up the records framing the gun owner for another firearm. Having your own records would solve this problem.

Again, the only people who should be worried about this are criminals. If your gun is stolen (uh, huh, yea right), you should report it to the police right away. Of course if it takes you a week to realize that the only thing missing in your house is the registered gun. You are either lying, or, too stupid to own a firearm.

All you have to do to defeat this is to change the barrel.

I'm pro gun (I used to own several, until that darn boating accident on the high seas). I don't have any problems with this at all. If I were to shoot someone, they'd know it was me anyway because I'd admit to it...since the only reason I will ever shoot anyone is in self-defense. This isn't as dire as it seems.

/TOA

Bring it to a gunsmith if you are really worried about it. That would change it. Although if I was planning on committing some gun crimes, I would go buy a stolen one, not use my own

I'd have no problem with them keeping the bullet forensic data if it was based on factual science. But instead it looks to be based more on intuition than science. And would you really want your life decided by someone based on how they are feeling that day.

CSI Myths

A 2006 study by the University of Southampton in England asked six veteran fingerprint examiners to study prints taken from actual criminal cases. The experts were not told that they had previously examined the same prints. The researchers' goal was to determine if contextual information—for example, some prints included a notation that the suspect had already confessed—would affect the results. But the experiment revealed a far more serious problem: The analyses of fingerprint examiners were often inconsistent regardless of context. Only two of the six experts reached the same conclusions on second examination as they had on the first.

Ballistics has similar flaws. A subsection of tool-mark analysis, ballistics matching is predicated on the theory that when a bullet is fired, unique marks are left on the slug by the barrel of the gun. Consequently, two bullets fired from the same gun should bear the identical marks. Yet there are no accepted standards for what constitutes a match between bullets.