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Legit Questions for ATS Liberals…Shed Some Light Please

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posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 03:13 AM
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reply to post by LErickson
 





Most liberals I know wish Sharpton would shut the hell up and go away.


LOL. That's so true. Sharpton and MOST Liberals on TV are the "manufactured Opposition". About the ONLY Liberal and a token one at that I find on TV is Rachel Maddow. John Stewart merely is funny and sane -- he's Liberal by default that to the left lies any sanity at all as the country stands today - though of course, I'm not a Left/Right person but that's the "simple dynamic" that the TV News and the Right seems to understand -- so be it.

I do know a few Liberals who consider NPR Liberal -- but I don't. It's major sponsors are all companies that it USED to catch in exposes. ADM, Monsanto, Dupont, Chase -- the list goes on. Every one of those corporations is a major polluter or criminal or both. NPR and even PBS got infiltrated at the top, and taken off of government sponsorships -- so they now have economic advisors from the same sources as does any Wall Street investment mouthpiece.

NPR merely does a good job of reporting the news, and they bend over backwards to be "balanced" as if acting like people who pass for Conservative today had a point to make that was halfway lucid.

LErickson is too polite -- but I'll say it; we honestly think the Right wing in this country is insane. The Democrats are now crooked and sold out to corporations the way the Republicans used to be -- and anyone considered a "real, Conservative Republican" by Limbaugh or the RNC, is pretty much a classic fascist.


RACISM is not a big issue to me, by the way. It's merely a tactic. The squabbles about the borders, or Muslims are merely distractions so the poor can fight each other while the rich pick our pockets. The ONLY reason I'm upset about the recent case with Zimmerman in Florida -- is because the "Stand Your Ground Law" gives an arbitrary power to the police to totally ignore a shooting if they choose to. They ask Zimmerman; "were you afraid for your life?" and after he says; "yes" -- it's case closed. It's a benefit of the doubt that ALLOWS for real racists to do great damage to the trust of the people.

It's the people poisoning the well who are USEFUL FOOLS for the Robber Barons. They are driven by Racism -- and would be harmless, except for people with influence and power -- for their own agenda, let the be Sheriffs or some other person of note, so they can make people angry and disconnected.

I don't want ANY KIDS being shot -- it's that simple.




This is such a lame argument. Sarah Palin is not "women." It is just that simple. Hating George Bush does not equal hating all men so hating Palin does not equal hating women.


I'll go further; I don't think that Conservatives actually believe their own arguments anymore. I don't think they even CARE that Herman Cain is a moron, and they certainly don't REALLY respect women in charge. It's just a "gotcha game."

Whenever we said; "George Bush is corrupt." Or "George Bush is helping his cronies with this war in Iraq" -- we were accused of Hating America, the Flag, the Troops, or God. George Bush is just a corrupt fascist prick -- he hides behind the flag, the troops and God as useful shields and doesn't believe in any of it.

Why did all the Evangelicals who said; "Bush speaks our language" because he'd drop all those code words -- not care that Bush NEVER ATTENDED CHURCH while in Washington?

Really -- I now think they didn't even Care. For a lot of these Evangelicals, it's more about who to hate than loving God.


OTHER Than these ridiculous social issues that should have been laid to rest in the 1970's -- I think that NONE of my priorities were even touched. How they heck can we have a decent discussion -- when there is no respect? And even before we can have respect -- the Right needs to be honest about their real intentions. Either they don't care about anything they SAY they care about -- or they don't KNOW what their motivations are.

If you don't know what I'm talking about -- that means you are part of the problem.




posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 03:32 AM
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Originally posted by SisyphusRide

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by SisyphusRide
 


So many young people have been brainwashed by their Marxist professors. It's all an academic exercise to them. That young girl thinks she is so altruistic saying that everyone should love what they do and therefore doctors should not expect to get paid more than a "street sweeper" to use that guy's example. That is classic marxism, that everyone should have the same salary regardless of their efforts and/or the amount of skill they have. All that nonsense about Cuba having better doctors and the highest standard of living in the Caribbean. These people totally believe that stuff.

I agree... so where is the drive to better ones self in their system, with no mention of love this time around?

they just want equality for themselves because they are not educated well enough in the public school system imo as I was not.

but these are the gist of the youngsters that rocked his vote... and they are burning our streets this time around. It has been done before many times since the 60's, nothing new to their message just with a twist o the day and age.

...there's nothing new under the sun


edit on 9-4-2012 by SisyphusRide because: (no reason given)



Nothing that was said here even REMOTELY resembles the thinking or arguments of any Liberal I have ever met.

However I once met a Communist in America -- and he had 3 degrees in advanced mathematics. He was an Astronomer, and built his own matrix telescope array in his senior project. He WOULD NOT say the Doctor should earn the same as the street sweeper either.

This kind of Straw Man talk about the left doesn't seem to have changed one iota since the McCarthy era. Sheesh!



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 03:32 AM
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reply to post by LAKOTAWINS
 


You know -- I'm going to break with convention here. Sure "both sides" could improve -- but when you go off saying "Both the Right and the Left" and then go on to describe the "solutions" in terms that would send the RIGHT in this country screaming -- I think you need to quit pretending their is equivalence. You are a CLASSIC Liberal my friend, and nothing you said would shock, offend, or even bring up an argument from the Left -- other than the fact that you want to separate the Indian people from the fray.

"Separate yourself from people who do evil" -- that's fine. That means I don't talk to ANY Representatives in Washington? Because I think the Dems are now 80% corrupt and Republicans are 99% Corrupt.

Didn't you notice that Abramoff and some other Republicans, were pitting Indian tribes against each other to fight for Gambling on their reservations? LINK. Sitting on the sidelines like you are "above it all" isn't going to really help. The BAD GUYS are going to come looking for anyone they can rip off -- and you are on the menu just like the average working American.

Take a stand -- you are an American too. I appreciate that Europeans came and stole this land -- but that's the history of the world. Someone did that to the Scotts, the Irish, and ALL the Europeans got invaded by the Romans. You either got to fight, or give ground. That's not just the White Man's way -- that's Humanity's way. The Europeans used alcohol and money to get one indian tribe to kill another, and Jack Abramoff got Indian tribes to bid against each other, in the same way that Corporations get one state to bid against another to attract their business.



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 04:02 AM
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reply to post by VitriolAndAngst
 





You are a CLASSIC Liberal my friend, and nothing you said would shock, offend, or even bring up an argument from the Left


I dont think so. He seem to support the death penalty and restrictions on abortion.




If you are for abortion simply because of only choice than you are seriously in need of finding your inner spirit. Abortion should only be done because of a defect or rape which they had no choice in being inseminated or that the child will be born with a serious condition. As for defending an evil doer after he or she was convicted of doing unspeakable acts on a fellow human. Why save this poor soul? They chose to do this and should forfeit their life for the life or lives they took. That is justice!

edit on 9/4/12 by Maslo because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 05:04 AM
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This is not a post about L-R brain neurology but about political stereotypes, their logic use and ability to RESOLVE CONFLICTS... There are trends from neurological scans and political questionnaires that show difference in brain wiring of those on the left or right. For GROSS GENERALISATION's sake I am classing Righties as primarily Binary Logic and Few Category users and Lefties as Fuzzy Logic and Many Category thinkers... Ignoring UNRESOLVABLE CONFLICTS (or worse, GOING ROUND IN ARGUMENTATIVE CIRCLES) is more likely to happen when using Binary Logic & General Categories...

Binary Logic: if x is true then ....
Fuzzy Logic: if x.truth is greater than threshold then ...
Few Categories: fit x into the most GENERAL existing category
Many Categories: fit x into the most SPECIFIC existing category or create a new (sub) category

In short, Conservative thinking is SIMPLE due to their SIMPLE WORLD and THINKING MODEL... Liberal thinking is COMPLEX due to their COMPLEX WORLD VIEW and COMPUTATION METHODS...
Having said that painting people with TAR using the same brush is not advised (so MANY CATEGORY THINKING is ADVISED)... HOWEVER, Fuzzy logic does allow us to put a 'value' on LIFE (but it must be noted Conservatives believe in UNREGULATED, FREE ECONOMIES which put a 'price' on life too - As Cheap as Possible when BUYING or MAINTAINING, as EXPENSIVE as possible when SELLING...!!)

I want Conservatives to change their way of thinking, CHANGE THEIR BRAINS not just their MINDS... I believe in STRICT financial regulation where problems occur but am a spending conservative (As in the original Conservative Policy - spend what you have and estimate conservatively - not the post war Deficit Loving Debt Slaving NEOCONS). I am SOCIALLY LIBERAL and believe in equal rights - within CATEGORIES (Criminal Behaviour, Citizenship / time spent in the country should effect SOME of these 'EQUAL' Rights in my book)...

In Binary Logic we often come up against NON (Binary Logically) RESOLVABLE CONFLICTS (Mutually Exclusive Propositions).

The example of legal/illegal Abortion and MOTHER/FOETUS FREEDOM/RIGHTS is a perfect example...

Lib's use the PRO-CHOICE argument.
Con's say CHOICE = FREEDOM (not quite true...) and 'What about the UNBORN's FREEDOM'.
Con's say an unborn child is A LIFE (with A SOUL, usually).
Lib's resolve this by classing FOETUS/CELL CLUSTER as a SEMI(fuzzy)/Non-Sentient LIFE.
Con's are supposed to want FEWER, PERSONALLY INTERFERING LAWS.
Con's want the MORAL HIGH GROUND...
Con's get confused when their MORAL HIGH GROUND needs some PERSONALLY INTERFERING LAWS for a while then usually choose the DRACONIAN OPTION...
Lib's think the cost of implementing an anti-abortion law minus the revenue lost from NON-TAXED DIRTY ILLEGAL BACK-STREET ABORTIONS minus an ALIVE, BORN PERSON'S SUFFERING are REPUGNANT on every level - as is the (decision to go for an) abortion in SOME cases.

Cons' MORAL HIGH GROUND DESIRE gets confused because THEY are MIND-WARPED by a WARPED RELIGION - A Religion warped by some VERY RICH PATRONS over it's long, re-written history. On the LEFT HAND we have Christian type sharing, caring for the meek and poor yet quite a few Atheists. On the RIGHT HAND we have PURE UNREGULATED CAPITALISM, NO WELFARE, NO HEALTH AID yet many Christians... Combine AMERICAN CONSUMERISM and CAPITALISM'S worship of MONEY UBERALLES and you have the COGNITIVELY DISSONANT, confused bag of UNRESOLVED PARADOXES of BIBLICAL proportions that is the AVERAGE AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE... Oh yes, and there is only 1 true god, 1 true party (sorry 2, the good 1 and the evil 1) and 1 true religion (less paradoxes, more binary thinking)...

GOVERNMENTS should not spend more than they earn - if they do due to NON-CONSERVATIVE estimates they should LIBERALLY CUTBACK in the next financial year... TAX or FIRE your citizens too much on top and EXPECT MAYHEM, DECLINE, DESTRUCTION... Resolve that, ANY OF YOU!!

Sorry for any OVER-GENERALISATIONS... and the CAPITAL PROBLEM... I'm a BRITISH LOCALIST but we face the same issues.. I believe in WEIGHING and BALANCING CHOICES and NON-REPRESENTATIVE, DIRECT DEMOCRACY within (hierarchical) geographic ZONES - CITIZENS vote on laws and issues directly (bounded by a STRONG CONSTITUTION) - but I fear society may NEVER be allowed this much REAL POWER by TPTB without a THIRD WAY (at the very least)...
edit on 9-4-2012 by PrivateSi because: (no reason given)

edit on 9-4-2012 by PrivateSi because: Pedantic Grammar Correction, Last 1, First Post, SORRY!



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 05:25 AM
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i'm not a liberal in today's sense (though i would say that i identify with classical liberalism, such as the ideas of Adam Smith and David Ricardo), but rather i use a term to describe myself that may perplex you if you haven't studied the history of political terms at all and that term is "libertarian socialist". basically i am a radical left-winger and anti-authoritarian, and my ideology can also be called "anarchist". though not liberal, i am responding because i sympathize with a number of liberal ideas, a couple of which you mentioned here...


Originally posted by seabag1) Homosexuality and Muslims - Devote Muslims kill homosexuals for being homosexual (fact). Yet, liberals support both the Homosexual agenda in America as well as Muslim Sharia Law. What gives?


first and foremost, i think you would be hard pressed to actually find a liberal that supports Sharia Law. they support freedom of choice/expression for homosexuals and Muslims and want us to stay out of Middle Eastern affairs. these may seem contradictory if you consider the ideas behind Sharia Law, but three major factors make these ideas not so contradictory:

1. Sharia Law is no different from Mosaic Law (old testament) and other religious doctrines in various religions that have historically been used to severely persecute homosexuality, but that argument is not sufficient to wage war against Christianity or Judaism, so why should we hold a double standard and use that rationale to wage war against Islam?

2. While it would be ill-advised to not recognize that there are more radicalized Muslims world wide today that follow Sharia Law than there are Christians and Jews who follow Mosaic Law, it is worth noting that most Muslims, even those in Islamic countries, do not follow Sharia Law, just as most Jews and Christians don't follow Mosaic Law.

3. In order to understand the liberal position on the Middle East you need to understand the history of relations between the Middle East and the Western world since the Industrial Revolution. hundreds of years of occupation of the Ottoman Empire, forced mandates and treaties, and more than a century of forced tensions between "Israelites" (which are really just Jewish-European immigrants) and Arabs (who had occupied those lands since the 7th century) that heavily favor the State of Israel financially, as well as more recent secret CIA and military operations throughout Middle Eastern lands, have lead to a profound hatred of the Western world among people who live there. they do not hate our freedoms, as is claimed by conservatives, but rather they hate our (by "our" i am referring to all of Western Europe and the US) history of imperial/interventionist policies that have largely led to the horrible conditions that they currently face. if we continue to occupy Middle Eastern lands, and continue to fund Israel without addressing the horrible conditions the Israeli government is placing on the Palestinians in the name of expansion, we will only make the vitriolic hatred they have for us continue to grow.


2) Racism – (Hot topic these days…I know…I will tread lightly) It seems liberals keep the term “racists” alive. Why are vocal black democrats given praise by the left (Sharpton, Jackson, Rangel, Shiela Jackson Lee, etc) while vocal black conservatives (Clarence Thomas, Alan West, Herman Cain, etc) called names by the left?


i think Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are idiots as much as you do, and i feel that affirmative action, while necessary when it was created, is a racist policy today (though nowhere near to the same extent) just as segregation was in the 60's. however, Herman Cain et al. represent ideas that are equally as idiotic (imo) as Sharpton/Jackson's ideas.


Also, why do liberals continue to promote social programs that enslave blacks at poverty level? Left policies have NEVER led to black prosperity (Chicago, Detroit, ALL of California, etc are good examples) yet they get the majority of the black vote. What does the left offer that should inspire black Americans and keep their vote?


i feel it is because at the time of desegregation, programs like welfare were the only income blacks had, as it was still extremely difficult for them to get jobs. prior to the late sixties/early seventies, and arguably well into the eighties/nineties (especially if you lived in the South), you were better off being a convicted felon than being black if you were applying for a higher end job. welfare, therefore, became many black families' only source of income, and affirmative action became their only way to gain access to any type of meaningful employment, and therefore, to this day, they continue to hold on to welfare as they know they are at least promised some kind of check.

the economy however is a point on which i differ from neo-liberals. i am for free markets in which worker cooperatives strive in which there are no taxes/regulations

(continued)



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 05:58 AM
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3) Pro Women yet Anti Conservative Women – Liberals say they’re for women’s rights yet they destroyed Sarah Palin and her family in 2008. Liberals love Hillary but what did they have to say about Condoleezza?? Have liberals ever denounced all of the chauvinist remarks about Bachman?


i support Sarah Palin's and Michelle Bachmann's rights just as much as i support all other women's rights, but just as anyone else, if they present their policies publicly, they are not exempt from scrutiny. and btw, i do not love Hillary either. i scrutinize any policy i disagree with, and when someone is dishonest or promotes bigoted ideas, i will speak out, much of the time very aggressively, against that person. for example, when Sarah Palin made the completely unsubstantiated claim that Barack Obama wanted to return us to days before the Civil War. this statement was completely ludicrous for reasons that are, i would assume (and hope), obvious to you. and i can actually admit when i agree with people that i normally disagree with. for example, the opinions Palin seems to have on both evolution and global warming seem to actually be in line with mine. however, i do not recall personally belittling Palin because it was difficult to understand what her positions actually were on a lot of things, so i didn't have much to belittle her on besides her vagueness and lack of historical and political knowledge. if i did belittle her, however, it would have very little to do with her being a woman and a lot to do with criticizing her policies.


LAST BUT NOT LEAST…

4) Pro Abortion yet Anti-Death Penalty – Need I say more on this issue?


i could say the same for you being pro-life but also pro-Death penalty. however, i will do more than that and bring some actual logical responses to you:

1) up until a certain point during pregnancy that life form is simply an amalgam of cells. calling the abortion of a baby at this stage murder is roughly equivalent to calling scratching murder because you are killing skin cells. my question to you, then, would be at what point do we consider this a human child, and at what point and for what reason would we call it immoral? i too am opposed to later stage abortions in many cases, and definitely opposed to repeat abortions as birth control, but it is very hard for me to define the line of where it becomes immoral to abort a fetus.

2) the reason abortion was legalized in the first place actually had little to do with the philosophical argument of when life begins. it largely had to do with the fact that while abortion was illegal, girls were performing self-abortions or having unlicensed individuals perform abortions on them with coat hangers and a large percentage of those girls had serious complications, including infections, and many of them even died. these numbers have seriously decreased since abortion was legalized. as someone who was actually pro-life for a long time, this was the issue that persuaded me more than anything. no matter how much you value the potential life of a fetus, we need to put a higher value on the lives of young girls fighting social stigmas who are likely to have abortions whether they are legal or not.


I’m really not looking for a fight and I truly want to understand what my fellow Americans of the liberal persuasion are thinking, particularly on these issues. I have other questions but this is good enough to get the ball rolling. I will keep my responses civil and on topic and I ask that you do the same.

What say you?


i'm with you and hope that these responses prove to do just that. looking forward to hear your responses.



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 06:18 AM
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Originally posted by seabag


OK, if we (we = those of us who understand there are serious differences in the way left or right leaning people would like to govern the affairs of the US of A) better understood where each other are coming from we might actually accomplish something.



couldn't agree more!! and to be honest.....
I think we are just looking at the problem from different angles, and thus, coming from different perspectives. both sides are basically right in their claim, but because they are failing to see the whole picture, they are also wrong! therefore the problems will never be solved, unless the two sides acknowledge the validity of the points the other side is making, find the common ground and sit down and work together to find solutions that will benefit all!!



Originally posted by seabag
1) Homosexuality and Muslims - Devote Muslims kill homosexuals for being homosexual (fact). Yet, liberals support both the Homosexual agenda in America as well as Muslim Sharia Law. What gives?



huh???
not even sure how you managed to combine the two?? some people believe that homosexuality is a sin......and maybe it is!! but, if it is a sin, please tell me, just who does this sin harm....does it do more harm than some of the crap that some of our heterosexual couples are doing?? I mean, there's no children created in a homosexual marriage. it's a non-issue in my book that for some strange reason, some people seem to want to put on the top three list of issues that need to be addressed now!!!

as far as sharia law, I don't see that popping up in my neck of the woods, doubt if anyone in the states really sees it popping up in their neck of the woods. I really think that if it did try to sprout in america, it would be uprooted rather quickly, since contrary to what the right seems to want us to believe, we seem to be more of a godless nation in many ways than even a christian one. we ain't gonna let anything stupid law system come in to take away our beer, or our sex, or any of our other vices!!! maybe it's just that the christian conservatives don't want any competition as they try to force the masses of the godless into holiness??


Originally posted by seabag
2) Racism – (Hot topic these days…I know…I will tread lightly) It seems liberals keep the term “racists” alive. Why are vocal black democrats given praise by the left (Sharpton, Jackson, Rangel, Shiela Jackson Lee, etc) while vocal black conservatives (Clarence Thomas, Alan West, Herman Cain, etc) called names by the left?

Also, why do liberals continue to promote social programs that enslave blacks at poverty level? Left policies have NEVER led to black prosperity (Chicago, Detroit, ALL of California, etc are good examples) yet they get the majority of the black vote. What does the left offer that should inspire black Americans and keep their vote? I think the tide is turning, by the way.


racism/sexism is alive and well in america and there is nothing the gov't can really do to erase it. it will only come when it's time and the human soul has come to terms with it on an individual level.
here is a question back to you, why is it that whenever those social programs come up, it's inferred that the vaste majority of those on those programs are black?? there are plenty of white people on those programs also, aren't there?? it takes time to erase the damage of prejudice and sexism, but it is slowly being erased, and that is all we can ask for. we are at the point now it seems to me, that proverty is very much an equal opportunity that can be shared by anyone, regardless of race, religion, sex, or even to an extent, social class.


Originally posted by seabag
3) Pro Women yet Anti Conservative Women – Liberals say they’re for women’s rights yet they destroyed Sarah Palin and her family in 2008. Liberals love Hillary but what did they have to say about Condoleezza?? Have liberals ever denounced all of the chauvinist remarks about Bachman?

ever consider maybe sarah destroyed sarah, intentionally, because she figured out that being vp just wasn't worth the headache involved in it...just like hillary destroyed hillary and let obama have it?? and where is condi, just what is she doing now? she sure isn't anywhere near the political circle, is she?? they are women...they are smart women, and they know when the bank is busted and there is so little in the coffer to swindle to justify the headache .

LAST BUT NOT LEAST…

4) Pro Abortion yet Anti-Death Penalty – Need I say more on this issue?


I’m really not looking for a fight and I truly want to understand what my fellow Americans of the liberal persuasion are thinking, particularly on these issues. I have other questions but this is good enough to get the ball rolling. I will keep my responses civil and on topic and I ask that you do the same.

What say you?
[/quote



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 06:33 AM
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sorry, ran out the word limit...

LAST BUT NOT LEAST…

4) Pro Abortion yet Anti-Death Penalty – Need I say more on this issue?





kind of like....
oh, I don't know....
anti-abortion yet....oh my God!! those evil muslims are gonna take over and instill sharia law in our lands!! quick!! let's bomb them to hades and back! we got to save our way of life!!!

sometimes, abortions do save lives...and well, the trick for you conservatives is to convince me that you understand that danger and will ensure that no lives will be lost due to the denial of the service. yous could start by not giving the impression that you believe that bringing babies into the world is the primary responsibility, no duty! of women!! and recognize that there is quit a bit of sacrifice involved in the process...which well for some can be a sacrifice of life or the general health!! yous fail to do that, sorry!

you speak of social programs, and yet, it was the conservative who not long ago were declaring just how great outsourcing was for our economy!! seem to want to do away with the minimum wage. do away with public schools. which, I assure you will result in at least some children not recieving even a basic education. yous seem to think that half of the workforce isn't worth the amount of money that is required to live, yet, you enjoy the products and services that these people work to provide for you. while justifying and protecting the profits of a bunch of people who's income has come mainly by betting on weather the poor sheeple will be able to pay their bills next month!! so, well, you help ensure that there will always be a need for those social programs, and more than likely secretly hope that they will never go away, since if they do, well, you own employees will not be able to pay their rent, have food on their table, they won't be able to buy your nice products anymore, and their kids will be bringing all those god awful germs for god only knows what into your kid's schools because the money won't be there for them to get to the doctors!!!

it's just a matter of from which direction you chose to look at the problem!!!



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 06:57 AM
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Originally posted by seabag
1) Homosexuality and Muslims - Devote Muslims kill homosexuals for being homosexual (fact). Yet, liberals support both the Homosexual agenda in America as well as Muslim Sharia Law. What gives?


Extremists support the murder of homosexuals, not Muslims. I'm gay, and I've worked with a Muslim directly for five years. I supervised many Muslims too. You're making generalized assumptions about a religious group akin to me accusing all Christian's of being like Fred Phelps. It's not the case.


Originally posted by seabag
2) Racism – (Hot topic these days…I know…I will tread lightly) It seems liberals keep the term “racists” alive. Why are vocal black democrats given praise by the left (Sharpton, Jackson, Rangel, Shiela Jackson Lee, etc) while vocal black conservatives (Clarence Thomas, Alan West, Herman Cain, etc) called names by the left?


Again you're generalizing. Who is calling who what? Have you a survey or poll results to show us? I think you'll find that the vast majority of people (right or left) base their opinions on the actions and words of a person. In that case I can certainly see why some would be favored more than others. This has nothing to do with race, this has everything to do with what the men stand for and what they express.


Originally posted by seabag
Also, why do liberals continue to promote social programs that enslave blacks at poverty level? Left policies have NEVER led to black prosperity (Chicago, Detroit, ALL of California, etc are good examples) yet they get the majority of the black vote. What does the left offer that should inspire black Americans and keep their vote? I think the tide is turning, by the way. This video is a good illustration of what I’ve said.


The social programs (in any country) are a good one to wrestle with. This is more about government waste and regional failings though, not about the very existence of these programs.
I love the fact that so many on the right complain about their taxes being spent on these social programs, and how they would love the idea of people "fending for themselves". These same people are often too brain dead to understand basic economics and the very basics of social cohesion too.
They completely fail to understand the consequences of removing those programs and what they will then face as a result of it.
Living standards across the country would drop, contagious diseases would increase, crime would go through the roof, riots and looting would be regular occurrences...
Those on the right complaining about social programs and planning to remove/limit those safety nets better have a bunker in their yard that no one can find, they'll need it within a year of their ridiculous plan being put in motion.


Originally posted by seabag
3) Pro Women yet Anti Conservative Women – Liberals say they’re for women’s rights yet they destroyed Sarah Palin and her family in 2008. Liberals love Hillary but what did they have to say about Condoleezza?? Have liberals ever denounced all of the chauvinist remarks about Bachman?


Once again this is about the intentions of the women and the ideas they put forth. You're also making another generalization.
I can't stand Hillary Clinton. She reminds me of a girl I knew at school who would rat on you in a second, the girl writing lists of the guys she can see smoking at lunch.
As for Palin, the was an ignoramus of the highest order. She barely had any concise opinions about anything. And Bachman? The homophobe married to one of the campest men I think I have ever seen on US TV?


Originally posted by seabag
4) Pro Abortion yet Anti-Death Penalty – Need I say more on this issue?


Pro women's rights, not pro abortion. No one can be "pro abortion", that's the kind of doublespeak intended to inflame debate and you know it.

In an ideal world, people would only have children when they intend to, when they can afford to, when they are able to provide for that child. But we do not live in an ideal world.
The second option - unless you would love to see the birthrate shooting up - is allowing women to make that choice themselves.
Fewer social programs while the birth rate skyrockets? How is that possible?
As for the death-penalty, there have been numerous instances throughout history where innocent people have been executed. It has also been proven numerous times that the death penalty is not effective in reducing crime.

Ultimately, in my perception, those on the right love to meddle in other people's lives while claiming they want smaller government. They want to be able to tell gay people, women and all those of a religion other than Christianity what to do, while demanding freedom from government themselves.

They're often proven to be hypocrites, praising capitalism while ignoring that bailing out the banks goes AGAINST capitalism (Republican president did that)



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 07:57 AM
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Originally posted by seabag
1) Homosexuality and Muslims - Devote Muslims kill homosexuals for being homosexual (fact). Yet, liberals support both the Homosexual agenda in America as well as Muslim Sharia Law. What gives?


This is a poorly thought out question since I don't see how support of one has anything to do with support of another. I feel like homosexuals should be able to have the rights that everyone else enjoys and believes in. They should not be discriminated against because of their sexual preferences nor should they be given special privileges based on their sexual preference, period.

I think Muslim Sharia Law has no place in the United States nor does it have a place in any civilized culture. It promotes the disrespect of women and attempts to violate their civil rights which our country was founded on.



2) Racism – (Hot topic these days…I know…I will tread lightly) It seems liberals keep the term “racists” alive. Why are vocal black democrats given praise by the left (Sharpton, Jackson, Rangel, Shiela Jackson Lee, etc) while vocal black conservatives (Clarence Thomas, Alan West, Herman Cain, etc) called names by the left?


I wish Al Sharpton & Company would fold up and disappear... I don't know how being a liberal has any thing to do with supporting individuals in their causes... just because I lean to the left does not mean I support or object to anyone in particular.

Also, why do liberals continue to promote social programs that enslave blacks at poverty level? Left policies
have NEVER led to black prosperity (Chicago, Detroit, ALL of California, etc are good examples) yet they get the majority of the black vote. What does the left offer that should inspire black Americans and keep their vote? I think the tide is turning, by the way. This video is a good illustration of what I’ve said.

I don't think social programs create any prosperity but I think that they are abused by all subsections of the population. If black Americans want to get off of the social programs I believe they can, just as I believe white Americans can get off of the programs if they so desire.



3) Pro Women yet Anti Conservative Women – Liberals say they’re for women’s rights yet they destroyed Sarah Palin and her family in 2008. Liberals love Hillary but what did they have to say about Condoleezza?? Have liberals ever denounced all of the chauvinist remarks about Bachman?



What does women's rights have to do with bashing Sarah Palin? Sarah Palin made STUPID STUPID comments which portrayed her in a TERRIBLE light and made her look like an incompetent fool... I would bash any public figure who made those comments... female or male.



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 08:41 AM
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Do you realize all the rights you fight for in America as a liberal would be gone under Sharia Law.Factual 100% true.



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 08:45 AM
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If Sarah Palin ever becomes U.S.president I will sit back and watch the idiots mostly on the left wing liberals who think she is crazy and dumb fall apart and lose the battle.The women actualy cares to stop the garbage government from taking over and you still hate her for some bizarre reason that makes no sense.

Ron Paul actauly cares as well.So does Rick Santorum because their factual records prove they actualy care.



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 08:51 AM
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Originally posted by Jobeycool

Do you realize all the rights you fight for in America as a liberal would be gone under Sharia Law.Factual 100% true.

and...right back to the...
life is sacred, we need to force women to carry their babies to full term and become mommies, regardless of the price she has to pay......
and.....
in about the same breath.....
those evil muslims are gonna take over and bring sharia law to our lands, quick let's bomb them out of existance!!
anyone got a few billion laying around that they can lend us for another war????

there's no sanity in either party...
and that is a big part of the problem!!!



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 10:12 AM
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reply to post by VitriolAndAngst
 


I could not disagree more. I am neither. I have compassion for both.

“Separate and do not follow” does not mean “ignore”. I try to read and listen to all sides and make my own assessment. Just my way of rationalizing things. I never said do not talk to others either. Communication is essential in understanding others. The folks in Washington are disillusioned. They feel the need to take care of the many and forget the few. Sort of what Spock from Star Trek would say “Sometimes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few”. My thoughts on this are very clear. Help those who need help. Do not expect people to help you. The people in Washington are under the notion that many of us need help. Well we mostly do not yet we treat it like we are.


I do notice all parties trying to take advantage of the American Indians and that is sad. However, we are to blame also if we allow people to change our beliefs and thoughts merely for monetary gain.

My stance is very clear. Europeans did not take this land because it was not ours to have. We live, love and then die. That is the real truth. The land remains. My suggestion to you is to look deep within yourself. Be happy and live free. GOD bless you all and have a great day.



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 11:49 AM
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reply to post by seabag
 


Thank you to those of you who answered the questions I posed. I’ve noticed some common themes while reading through the responses.

Pro Homosexuality and Pro Muslim – A lot of people deny that there is a homosexual agenda and don’t think there is any conflict of interest in supporting homosexuality and Islam. How about making gay marriage legal…is that an agenda? What about forcing public schools to teach about homosexuality…is that an agenda? Is it mostly straight people who are pushing for these things? And what political party do homosexuals predominately flock to because it’s the party that panders to their agenda? Can you point out on prominent Muslim conservative or a conservative pushing for gay marriage?

As others have pointed out, Muslim beliefs are firmly against homosexuality and Muslims are commanded to live by Sharia. Here is one of hundreds of examples:



I still don't see how supporting both isn't a conflict of interest...


Racism – Everyone seems to want to distance themselves from ole’ Al Sharpton. This guy (and Jessie Jackson, Charles Rangel, etc) has been a figure on the left longer than I’ve been alive so you can’t just say the left doesn’t support him!
It is what it is….own it! My point is that when someone on the right says anything negative about the policies of these men (race isn’t even mentioned) they are called racists. However, no charges of racism are made at all when someone calls Clarence Thomas or Herman Cain an ‘uncle tom’ or ‘race-traitor’ or makes comments referencing slavery or plantations. Why is that? The reason I belive the left is keeping the issues alive is because I only hear racial statements and charges of racism coming from the left.


Pro women yet anti conservative women - People seem to agree that the left only go after people like Bachman and Palin because of their ideology. I totally understand that you disagree with them and reject their position. However, because you disagree with these women ideologically that doesn’t make it OK to attack these women in a chauvinistic manner or make derogatory comments about their sex. If I followed that logic then it would be OK for anyone on the right to call Obama the N-word because we disagree with his policy. This logic doesn’t hold up…


Pro choice yet anti death penalty – I haven’t heard a good argument for this yet but I’m still reading. Claiming that it’s OK to take the life of an unborn baby because it can’t think yet seems legit?? Somehow THAT life doesn’t count?? Would you admit that all of us were once that small? Do we count? We’re never going to agree on this topic so I’ll leave it alone. I just wanted to see how the left justifies it…now I know.

Again, thank you all for your responses. I still have several posts to read so maybe I will learn something new.

edit on 9-4-2012 by seabag because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by ollncasino
 


And the funny thing is that homosexual prostitution is very prevalent in Islamic culture.

Young men and boys selling their booty for connections seems to be very common.

It's a mad world.



Define very prevalent please.
2L.



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 01:32 PM
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Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by VitriolAndAngst
 





You are a CLASSIC Liberal my friend, and nothing you said would shock, offend, or even bring up an argument from the Left


I dont think so. He seem to support the death penalty and restrictions on abortion.




If you are for abortion simply because of only choice than you are seriously in need of finding your inner spirit. Abortion should only be done because of a defect or rape which they had no choice in being inseminated or that the child will be born with a serious condition. As for defending an evil doer after he or she was convicted of doing unspeakable acts on a fellow human. Why save this poor soul? They chose to do this and should forfeit their life for the life or lives they took. That is justice!

edit on 9/4/12 by Maslo because: (no reason given)



I'm pro choice -- but I don't object to heartfelt issues people have with abortion. People can CHOOSE to NOT have an abortion. Also -- anyone against Abortion should be FOR supporting Single Mothers AND Birth Control -- so until my Native American friend here is proven to be a typical conservative Hypocrite on women's issues -- I've got no problem with an opinion or a conviction. Most anti-abortion rights people however, don't seem to give a damn about what women and kids go through beyond condemning their actions.



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 01:40 PM
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reply to post by LAKOTAWINS
 


I don't mean to say that you would JUST be a Liberal -- I mean to say that YOU CANNOT be part of the Right with your points of view.

Sure, you can distance yourself and "be nice and talk to both sides" -- but I just don't see them as equivalent. I see the left as sometimes myopic, and sometimes wrong. Conservatives on the other hand are a death cult -- and don't have any ideas that won't take the country to ruin.



My stance is very clear. Europeans did not take this land because it was not ours to have. We live, love and then die. That is the real truth. The land remains. My suggestion to you is to look deep within yourself. Be happy and live free. GOD bless you all and have a great day.


I can't argue with that. I've always loved a lot of Indian wisdoms and culture. NONE of us are entitled to anything, and we can't truly own anything -- but that my friend, would be mistaken as Communism by some (I recognize that it isn't and it is a more spiritual way of relating to things).

DIVIDE and CONQUER has been the way of the powerful since mankind has had a history to track. I'd like people on the Right to recognize that -- but they are still blaming government (which is just a tool for good or for abuse as any other), and myopically giving money and power to the powerful in hopes that they will be nice enough to help us out of this mess.

I'll do my best to look within and try and become a better person (the only person I can change after all) -- and I do know that one on one -- lot's of Conservatives can be good friends. They are just dangerous in groups.



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 01:41 PM
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Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by seabag
 


Thank you to those of you who answered the questions I posed. I’ve noticed some common themes while reading through the responses.


i actually spent over an hour thoroughly and intelligently responding to your first post with very logical and factual information, and that response is just a few posts above this one, and you basically brushed my commentary off here as if i said nothing and gave no logical explanations for my position. you act here as though myself and others on the left are stupid and i am seriously offended by this post.

you ask why you get no intelligent responses from people of the left persuasion, but my response and a few others that i have seen have been thoroughly thought out, and should have at least given you reason to respond. instead you act like you are above such reasoning. that is EXACTLY why you get no intelligent responses.

the biggest problem in your logic is that you are stuck in this thought process that if someone calls themselves left-wing, they need to be able to justify everything about the left (which i would argue isn't even the true left based on the historical positions of the left) even if they disagree with it and that is patently absurd. my dad is conservative through and through but is even more strongly in support of abortion being legal than i am. does that means he has to justify the pro-life position? i'm sure there are topics that you disagree with the right on and that there are prominent right-wingers you vehemently disagree with. do you have to justify your alliance with them? a few that come to mind that this may include would be Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, O'Reilly, Hannity, Fred Phelps, Pat Robertson, etc. i'm sure you disagree with at least one of them and would be annoyed at the least if i said he "has been a figure on the [right] longer than I’ve been alive so you can’t just say the left doesn’t support him!
It is what it is….own it!"
edit on Mon Apr 9 2012 by DontTreadOnMe because: Mod Note: Big Quote – Please Review This Link.



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