Jesus is Yahweh

reply to post by icepack


Actually it was both the Angel of Yahweh and Yahweh. It was the physical manifestation of Yahweh. Check out Exodus 3. It's pretty clear that The Angel of the Lord[Yahweh] is the physical manifestation of Yahweh. After all that's exactly what He claims in verse 6.

1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.”
4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!”

And Moses said, “Here I am.”

5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” 6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father,[a] the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

Besides that this is just one of many examples of the physical manifestation of Yahweh. In the OT sometimes He's referred to as the Angel of YHWH sometimes as The Word of Yaweh etc. It's always clear that it is Yahweh though.

Originally posted by wearewatchingyouman
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Very interesting. I was recently educated as to the fact that the Word makes many appearances throughout the OT. Also that it was a common concept throughout Judaism that God Yahweh was two seperate, yet not, powers until it was deemed a heresy by the rabbinical Jews in the first century.

Thats because Jesus does make appearances all through the entire OT, he said in John 8 that it was he there before Abraham and the pharisees tried to stone him for it. People that deny that Jesus is Yahweh are largely (and willfully) ignorant of the many discourses where Christ claimed to be I AM and where the prophets clearly tell you that Yahweh will be the Savior in the flesh which is Jesus.

People that deny these facts do so because they cannot handle having everything they ever believed in shattered right in front of them, but let me tell you, i was agnostic up until a year ago when i was showed the things in botht the OT and NT where Jesus is Yahweh. Have to ask yourself what did a man who didn't even care if there was a god much less a Jesus, change his life about and what did he see that changed him. I tell you now, if he had not revealed himself to me i'd still be agnostic, just like Shaul was a pharisee jew hunting down christians and was converted on the spot when confronted by what he saw standing there in front of him (Jesus).

I had everything i didn't even care about shattered in front of me and it made me care and it made me change. It really does happen, that when Jesus reveals himself even an atheist or agnostic can change instantly and believe and care. The best way i can describe it is like having a knot jerked in your tail, or getting hit in the head by a hammer.

reply to post by wearewatchingyouman

spirituality seems quite complex. god and angel could be in another dimension or realm that is connected to our world. it is hard to imagine "omnipresence".
interesting the part, where moses is called to put off his sandals, because he is entering holy ground. reminds me of muslims and sikh which enter their place of worship without shoes.

reply to post by icepack


Complex is the understatement of the century. God is unfathomable. All we can do is try to open our hearts and seek Him. See where the path leads you. For me it's still a maze.

Jesus is God in human form, they are both the same.

reply to post by wearewatchingyouman

All we can do is try to open our hearts and seek Him.

why is always spoken of "him" ? is it like yin and yang and god is the yin ? or him, jesus christ ?
i guess you have felt jesus christ in your life and you felt the merciful, kindhearted, benevolent "spirit" ?
this "entity" is not the god or yahweh of the old testament, which could (can) be violent and reckless, imo. i think they are two different forms of spiritual beings. what do you think ?

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Did you happen to see my post on Yahweh, and how research led me to believe he was a Dragon? And even the Holy Bible bears this out.
Here is a description of Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament:

"There went up a smoke out of his [Yahweh] nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it."
(Psalm 18:8, 2 Samuel 22:9)

Here is a description of the Leviathan:

"Out of his [Leviathan] nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.21 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth." (Job 41:20)
www.abovetopsecret.com...
From what I have read about Jesus, he was a human being, not a Dragon.
The stories of such creatures date back to the earliest human writings, those of Sumer (meaning "land of the guardians"), Babylon (meaning "gate of the gods"), and other civilizations of ancient Mesopotamia. One of these, the Sumerian King List, tells the story of the god, Anu, chief god of an extraterrestrial race called the Anunnaki, and his sons, Enki and Enlil. It is clear from the texts and the illustrations left by the Sumerians that at least some of these "gods", including Enki (also known as Ea), were Reptilian in appearance.

The funny thing here is the Creation Story told by the Nag Hammadi Texts.
"She took some of its fruit and ate, and she gave to her husband also. ... Then their minds opened. For when they ate, the light of knowledge shone for them. When they saw their makers, they loathed them since they were beastly forms. They understood very much." Source

reply to post by icepack


I tend to think of Yahweh as asexual. I just refer to God as Him because it tends to be the trend...... In Proverbs 8 wisdom is referred to as "her" and being with God since time indefinite and at creation. Paul later refers to Christ being Yahwehs wisdom in 1Corinthians. As far as Yahweh being different than the God of the New Testament. I don't see it. You mention Yin and Yang. In eastern mythology the goal is to find God in everything. He exists in both the Yin and the Yang and to figure out what that means is enlightenment. There is an OT scripture that I can't seem to remember where it's located right now. But it reads something to the effect of, "I am the Lord. I create good and evil. I alone do all these things."

Jesus and God and/or the Son and the Father are certainly not the SAME.
Jesus asks God (Eli or Elah, not Abba) why he had forsaken him.

Jesus prays to the Father to let the cup pass his lips, but if that is not the will of the Father, then he will follow the Father's will.

Jesus says that it is evident to those who do God's will, that the doctrine he teaches is of God (Theos, not Pater), and not his own.

Jesus speaks about the Father that sent him.

Jesus says that there is some knowledge only the Father knows (such as the exact Day or Hour)

Jesus says that the Father is greater than him (in fact, he also says that the Father is greater than ALL).

Jesus is referred to the SERVANT of God.

Paul says that Jesus was a man approved by God (Theos again, not Pater), and God did miracles through him.

Most tellingly, and giving a clear picture of the relationship between himself, his brethren and God/Father, Jesus tells Mary Magdalane to tell the others that he will ascend to his Father, and their Father, and his God and their God. Is Jesus ascending to 2 different people?

Now I suppose one could attempt (you'd really need to twist some verses to do it) to weasel their way out of this by using metaphorical passages to claim the absurd "Jesus is the ARM OF GOD", but then...Paul would disagree... According to Paul, God (Theos again, not Pater) is the head of Christ. And if one were to take THAT literally...well, you end up with a very strange anatomy. I'd suggest that you're trying to liken God to one of those asexual plants (where you can make a cutting, plant that cutting somewhere else, and it'd grow into a new plant- in this case Jesus), but I'm worried you'd actually take up that analogy seriously and run with it :O, which would be troublesome, because it STILL doesn't fit with the rest of the theology.

reply to post by autowrench


Yeah but the Nagh Hamadi was found in Egypt, not far from Cairo, the seat of the pagan egyptian religion and are gnostic texts and some came from the great library in Alexandria that was trying to blend the scriptures with the pharonic religion.

The nagh hamadi also have a distinctly sumerian feel to them, and then theres the whole anunnaki deal where man was created by some reptiles who abandoned their post in heaven. I've read alot of that stuff in college and over the course of the years. I'll just keep believing Jesus, and let him deal with that other stuff.

reply to post by babloyi


Same circular arguments. Explain to me then, about the scriptures i posted in the OP.

reply to post by babloyi


If Jesus was God, how could He pray to God? Was Jesus praying to Himself?

www.gotquestions.org...

Originally posted by wearewatchingyouman
reply to post by icepack

 

I tend to think of Yahweh as asexual. I just refer to God as Him because it tends to be the trend...

... In Proverbs 8 wisdom is referred to as "her" and being with God since time indefinite and at creation. Paul later refers to Christ being Yahwehs wisdom in 1Corinthians. As far as Yahweh being different than the God of the New Testament. I don't see it. You mention Yin and Yang. In eastern mythology the goal is to find God in everything. He exists in both the Yin and the Yang and to figure out what that means is enlightenment. There is an OT scripture that I can't seem to remember where it's located right now. But it reads something to the effect of, "I am the Lord. I create good and evil. I alone do all these things."

edit on 6-4-2012 by wearewatchingyouman because: (no reason given)

Keyword is Proverbs, it is literally the only book where you have just the one verse alone with no chapters thats like old wive's sayings.

As per the scripture in the OT you're referring to he says something of the like "I create life and bring destruction", which goes handin hand with his "it rains on the just and the unjust alike".

Matthew 5:45

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
So that you will become the children of your Father who is in Heaven, for his sun rises on the good and upon the evil and his rain descends on the just and on the unjust.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.

Lamentations 3:37-38 37 Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, Unless the Lord has commanded it? 38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and ill go forth?

This is all ofcourse for the ultimate and greater good.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Explain to me then, about the scriptures i posted in the OP.

But I don't have to, Lonewolf. I am posting scripture that disproves what you said in your first post. It'd be you who'd have to defend your argument.

Honestly, I am not under any obligation to believe any of the Bible at all. But I am using your scripture to point out where your theology is in conflict with that scripture. Since this is a discussion forum, and you've posted your thesis in the first post, how does it stand up to the verses I referenced?

reply to post by Deetermined

Hey Deetermined!
I have heard the argument that your link puts forward before. Besides not explaining the references I showed earlier that prove that Jesus is not the same as God (Jesus explains the doctrine he teaches isn't his own, but is from God, Jesus ascended to God, Paul saying that God did miracles THROUGH Jesus etc.), the problem with considering Jesus as a being made of the same material and essence as the Father is that it would imply polytheism, since there are 3 of them.

In fact, such a system would DEFINITELY be polytheistic if one considered that brief period of time that Jesus was on Earth- considering that the link you posted simply ignores the cases in the Bible where not only does Jesus differentiate himself from the Father, he also differentiates himself from GOD. In fact, the last example I gave (what Jesus told Mary Magdalane to say), clearly shows that God is the Father, and Jesus is ascending to God.

reply to post by wearewatchingyouman

"I am the Lord. I create good and evil. I alone do all these things."

very interesting. could you find the psalm ? that is exactly what i am thinking. there is one god, thats decides human fates, wether it is evil or good.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


I'm surprised to see this coming from you my brother, I thought you believed in the Trinity and held to biblical Orthodoxy. Jesus and the Father YHWH are 2 separate persons of the triune Godhead. They are both divine (God) but why confuse them as being the same? This is how I've always understood the trinity, but it seems like your saying something different.

reply to post by icepack


Thanks to the OP. He found it for me.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.

Lamentations 3:37-38 37 Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, Unless the Lord has commanded it? 38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and ill go forth?

Matthew 5:45 ties these verses to the NT...

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by babloyi

 

If Jesus was God, how could He pray to God? Was Jesus praying to Himself?

www.gotquestions.org...

Well to add to this i will say this. In order for God to save us from our sin, he had to take it upon himself and this is impossible unless he diminished himself and became man for a brief period. His nature is to destroy sin in his presence, by him taking that sin (eternal death) upon himself on the cross, when he died that sin followed him into death and was destroyed by his Divinity.

I think sin = eternal death, so by him taking death upon himself, he went into the grave, but it was not possible that death could hold him and the grave keep him and he resurrected himself.

It may be possible that we are no longer under original sin, in which case we die from our own sins as opposed to Adam and Eve's that was forced onto us.

reply to post by wearewatchingyouman

so, there is one allmighty god and the trinity are three faces of god ? what about all the other religions, has god so many faces or masks ?
atheists have no clue, they are other-directed by a non-human being. when will they know ?

reply to post by RevelationGeneration

I'm surprised to see this coming from you my brother, I thought you believed in the Trinity and held to biblical Orthodoxy. Jesus and the Father YHWH are 2 separate persons of the triune Godhead. They are both divine (God) but why confuse them as being the same?

Because the scripture indicates that they are the one and the same, which is why Jesus told the pharisees that and they tried to kill him, not once but several times. The Talmud says he was nailed to a tree for blasphemy (claiming to be I AM). Everything i posted in the OP points directly at the relationship between Yahweh and Jesus and them being the one and the same. It's not me saying this, it's the scripture saying this, all i am doing is pointing at it. The entire reason the orthodox jews today deny Jesus is because of his claims to be God. Everyone knows theres only one God, why confuse yourself with the triunity. Referring to the Holy Spirit=God, referring to Jesus= God, referring to the Father = God, so by definition its all the same...Jesus is Yahweh.

Why is the Book of Revelation, "the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ"? Why is it not "the Book of the Revelation of God the Father"? Why is it not the Book of the Revelation of the Holy Spirit"? In all things were supposed to put God first, yet that book is referring to who?

In the OT, God says "I AM the Alpha and Omega", in Revelation Jesus says "I AM the Alpha and Omega" and even the angels say he is God.

Christ's works testifies of him, the OT and NT bear witness of him yet most people still cannot make the connection of who he is even though he tells them who he is they still do not believe him?

Bro i promise, it's there and he is. Go to each one of those chapters i stated in the OP and read them. See what i see.