Originally posted by Bedlam

Originally posted by SayonaraJupiter
This book was updated this year 2012.

Do they mention the thing(s) they weren't able to get? It might be fun to ask why or if they're still classified from some inside guys. Find it tough to believe there are 'born secret' 75 year term secrets in there.

No, I don't think that is the purpose of their book. "U. S. Spacesuits By Kenneth S. Thomas, Harold J. McMann" I'll bet some of the other more dedicated Apollo researchers own a copy of it.

I wish the authors could say they tried to get XX information from YY sources but that it was "too expensive and difficult" to perform the declassification process. (That's what real researchers would do!)

If the authors did come out and told us what XX information and YY sources... it might be considered a violation of the conditions of secrecy which are still in effect for the XX information. If the existence of XX information were revealed, it might also put YY sources in danger.

If the information remains classified because it could potentially cause serious harm to the United States then it remains hidden.... to protect something.... or to protect someone...

... who knows a very deep secret about Apollo space suits.

A direct connection from Meshulam Riklis to Richard Nixon via Rapid American.

Originally posted by SayonaraJupiter

I wish the authors could say they tried to get XX information from YY sources but that it was "too expensive and difficult" to perform the declassification process. (That's what real researchers would do!)

Well, "real" researchers would have requested that the agency holding the data follow the EO and release it. There's a ton of classified data that just hasn't gone through the motions to release, even though it's technically reverted to unclassified. The security office of the "owners" of the data are supposed to read through the document and make sure nothing's in there that should persist. These days, you mark the document upon creation as releasable upon expiration and it just happens. But for older stuff, they have to comb through it, which slows the process down. However, it's been my experience that stuff like this they'll do for you on request. By law, it can't cost the requestor money - it's not a FOIA - and while they can be buttholes and say "we'll get to it when we do" NASA doesn't tend to be one for that. The authors may have written the book before automatic declassification, and just not gone back and followed up on it, thus my original question to you.

If the authors did come out and told us what XX information and YY sources... it might be considered a violation of the conditions of secrecy which are still in effect for the XX information. If the existence of XX information were revealed, it might also put YY sources in danger.

While that sounds cool, it's not the way things usually work. What'll happen is that document A references document B, and then when you try to get document B, you get a note that says "This information is classified or restricted, no further information is available". Well, you would. I'd get a little bit more, like who the holding agency is, a contact name and number and what level of classification is involved. There's a metric crap ton of "sensitive but unclassified" or "confidential" documents that are available upon request as long as distribution is not my intent.

If the information remains classified because it could potentially cause serious harm to the United States then it remains hidden.... to protect something.... or to protect someone...

Or because it hasn't been gotten to yet by the review group...or because it was originally loosely connected to something sensitive so they classified it too by reflex...like the drawing of the classified screwdriver that's on the wall outside my office....

edit to add: A lot of you "unwashed" non-Community® folk tend to think that all classified material is OMG run-around-in-circles info revealing things You Need To Know, laden with UFO information, who killed Kennedy, and maps of tunnels between underground sex slave bases for the Nazi reptilian overlords.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Those sorts of documents do exist, well, sort of - there's really not any reptilian overlords - but by far the bulk of this crap is so mundane that you often can't figure out what it's classified for. I have, in my possession AT HOME, RIGHT NOW, outside the protective storage it calls for, flaunting the laws of these here United States, a restricted document. It's classified. It's a very low level, to be sure, but it technically even now should be under lock and key. And what it is - it's the Army drill sergeant's manual on how to do PT for new recruits. It's full of all sorts of info that's hidden...to protect something...or someone....in this case, one of the secrets is the Secret of the Cadence. If I'm running a bunch of you guys around, I get you to sing/call cadence. And while that's keeping you concentrating on what you're doing and helping you to keep in step, I'm listening to you. Because when more than half of you quit participating, it's time to slack the pace up, so I will surreptitiously slow it down myself if I'm doing the call, or I'll run up to the guy that is and tell him to slow it a bit. There is a surprising amount of research that produces for me this neat table that says for a large group, your cadence participation is related to your physical exhaustion in a certain way. And I don't want you to sandbag me, so that manual is classified. Now YOU are in on one of the Classified Secrets of the Army Drill Sergeant. See, you didn't think anyone was paying attention when you started running out of wind and were just mouthing it.

Don't ask why I ended up with that. THAT is a Real Secret™

Oh, and illustronic's right. If the document contains trade secrets, you still won't get it.

For example.

We are one of the few places you can get a BIOS customized for a classified system. In a normal world, if we do you a BIOS for a commercial system, WE have the source, but YOU don't. If you want to make sure that you're covered if we go out of business, then we escrow the code with the BIOS company. And you STILL don't get the source code.

However, if Lockheed wants a classified BIOS for something, it's all backwards - they have to have the source code, and the BIOS company can't have it. WE can have it, and sometimes that's good enough, we do the development in the SCIF, and the code resides on one of the SCIF servers and the backups are in there too. We do all the development and we're the only place it exists, so we act as a go-between for the two companies.

However, for a lot of projects that won't work - we only have one SCIF and who knows, the panhandle of Florida might sink and there goes whatever project we're talking about. This causes problems. Eventually, after a legal process that has to be seen to be believed, the customer or first tier gets the production code, we keep a copy in the SCIF, and all of it's still the property of the BIOS company in law, even though they can't 'have' it. However, when the project declassifies down the road, you can't get the BIOS source with a FOIA. Just can't. Even though it's now unclassified, it's not yours, can't have it.

Why is this thread even still alive?

I am almost positive the erroneous claim in the OP was dismantled on the first page.

/thread

Originally posted by paradox
Why is this thread even still alive?

I am almost positive the erroneous claim in the OP was dismantled on the first page.

/thread

edit on 4-13-12 by paradox because: (no reason given)

Well this ain't horse shoes son.
Them thar suits ain't even capable of keepin a moon turd viable.
Viable enough to be analyzed when brought back from space.
ljb

Originally posted by BedlamEven though it's now unclassified, it's not yours, can't have it.

Well, the authors of the book didn't even try. They simply said it would be too difficult and expensive. They didn't try, thus they cannot call themselves real researchers. They are "attempting to assemble" a history of space suits but they really act like gatekeepers of information, don't they? NASA insiders, did I expect a straight answer? from them? No, I did not.

But there is still classified information about the Apollo space suits and nobody knows what it pertains to? That's typical Richard Nixon paranoia and Apollo mythology. And it makes a very good conspiracy!

Originally posted by Bedlam
Oh, and illustronic's right. If the document contains trade secrets, you still won't get it.

For example.

We are one of the few places you can get a BIOS customized for a classified system. In a normal world, if we do you a BIOS for a commercial system, WE have the source, but YOU don't. If you want to make sure that you're covered if we go out of business, then we escrow the code with the BIOS company. And you STILL don't get the source code.

However, if Lockheed wants a classified BIOS for something, it's all backwards - they have to have the source code, and the BIOS company can't have it. WE can have it, and sometimes that's good enough, we do the development in the SCIF, and the code resides on one of the SCIF servers and the backups are in there too. We do all the development and we're the only place it exists, so we act as a go-between for the two companies.

However, for a lot of projects that won't work - we only have one SCIF and who knows, the panhandle of Florida might sink and there goes whatever project we're talking about. This causes problems. Eventually, after a legal process that has to be seen to be believed, the customer or first tier gets the production code, we keep a copy in the SCIF, and all of it's still the property of the BIOS company in law, even though they can't 'have' it. However, when the project declassifies down the road, you can't get the BIOS source with a FOIA. Just can't. Even though it's now unclassified, it's not yours, can't have it.

So in essence what you are saying is, that even with a WORKING Freedom of Information Act, the stoolie taxpayer, pays the bills and the Boys get the toys
no questions asked??? Sucks
ljb

Originally posted by longjohnbritches
So in essence what you are saying is, that even with a WORKING Freedom of Information Act, the stoolie taxpayer, pays the bills and the Boys get the toys
no questions asked??? Sucks
ljb

The BIOS source belongs to the BIOS company. Lockheed/Northrup et al only have it because the government requires that they do. When it declassifies, that removes one set of barriers, but the fact is, it's still the property of the BIOS vendor, whichever one you used. It doesn't give their property to you just because it becomes declassified.

Thus with any trade secret that someone becomes privy to during a project. The government is bound by contract not to reveal it, so just because the project ends and declassifies, it doesn't remove the bar formed by the NDA.

Originally posted by Bedlam

Originally posted by longjohnbritches
So in essence what you are saying is, that even with a WORKING Freedom of Information Act, the stoolie taxpayer, pays the bills and the Boys get the toys
no questions asked??? Sucks
ljb

The BIOS source belongs to the BIOS company. Lockheed/Northrup et al only have it because the government requires that they do. When it declassifies, that removes one set of barriers, but the fact is, it's still the property of the BIOS vendor, whichever one you used. It doesn't give their property to you just because it becomes declassified.

Thus with any trade secret that someone becomes privy to during a project. The government is bound by contract not to reveal it, so just because the project ends and declassifies, it doesn't remove the bar formed by the NDA.

Be that as it may. It still sucks. It is like saying you have to pay for the dress that your boss orders, you can see him or her wear it on TV but there is no way in hell you will ever know why you had to pay tripple for it.

Originally posted by longjohnbritches

Be that as it may. It still sucks. It is like saying you have to pay for the dress that your boss orders, you can see him or her wear it on TV but there is no way in hell you will ever know why you had to pay tripple for it.

Well, that part is obvious. We get outrageous markups on some things. There are multiple reasons why in most cases.

The most obvious one is that there's only so many of them we'll ever sell. It's not like getting $1 a throw on a commercial laptop (you've likely bought some of our code or design work yourself at one point...). There are a LOT of commercial laptop sales. But how are we supposed to make anything on some specialty laptop code that, say, only SOCOM will use, and then for maybe three years? What's the sales on THAT? 300? 500?

Second, a lot of times parts of the project budget process doesn't allow for paying for NRE. Some of it will, but not all of it. So if a part of the project involves, say, a certain specialty sound interface, and that's not available in COTS, and we have to design it and then sell you 50 over the course of the project, and we can't sell it to anyone else, then that's an issue. And the way EVERYONE gets around that issue is to amortize the NRE and production cost over 50 units. So you're going to pay $5000 a pop. And we're giving you a deal, at that.

Third, you have an enormous cost involved in developing ANYTHING that's primary life support, and is classified in whole or part. Because not only do you have to develop it in the SCIF at an outrageous per-hour cost (classified costs, bigtime), but now I have to keep minutely detailed records on each and every bit of stuff that goes into that project, down to keeping docs on who worked that hour, what they did move by move etc, and then I have to be liable for killing you if it fails. Forever. Mission-ending, personnel-killing, single-point-of-failure aerospace stuff is monumentally painful to work on, no matter how fun it is. (then if it's Navy we double it, but that's another story)

Originally posted by longjohnbritches

Originally posted by paradox
Why is this thread even still alive?

I am almost positive the erroneous claim in the OP was dismantled on the first page.

/thread

edit on 4-13-12 by paradox because: (no reason given)

Well this ain't horse shoes son.
Them thar suits ain't even capable of keepin a moon turd viable.
Viable enough to be analyzed when brought back from space.
ljb

Why is it you keep mentioning space turds?

I must be missing something.

Originally posted by paradox

Originally posted by longjohnbritches

Originally posted by paradox
Why is this thread even still alive?

I am almost positive the erroneous claim in the OP was dismantled on the first page.

/thread

edit on 4-13-12 by paradox because: (no reason given)

Well this ain't horse shoes son.
Them thar suits ain't even capable of keepin a moon turd viable.
Viable enough to be analyzed when brought back from space.
ljb

Why is it you keep mentioning space turds?

I must be missing something.

Honestly
Well, if the suits are as functional as depicted by some here, and NASA
has a real TASTE for science. Then I thought the acceptors of the landing theories would post up the results of moon turd tests.
If they did I would feel better about a potential MAXIE lie.
You do see that if the poop was carefully packaged and delivered to the earth scientists who were waiting with bated breath for moon rocks and regolith.
They should have prepared a report on the effects of the moon trip on Neil and Buzz's digestive system. Right down to the very last dingle berry and it's atomic structure.
Comprende???
ljb.
PS and all the other supposed missions.

---

---