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SHTF...Real guns VS. BB Guns.. lets end this!
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That bb gun is gonna get you killed. In my part of the country if you point a gun a someone, you better be willing to let the rounds fly. The bb gun
may help you with your food sources, squirrel, rabbitt, birds & such. thinking it will keep you from harm is a sure mistake on your part.
Mobility and multiple fallback points, if you aint mobile, you got some problems. If we have an EMP pulse all intergrated circuit boards are toast. Batterys too. I have an old ford truck, points, plugs, condenser, distributor, all with no computer. I keep a deep cycle marine battery in a lead lined box, with the truck.
You need to re-think the bbgun idea. A 22cal pistol or rifle is better than a bb gun. It aint squirrel's and rabbitts that want to cause you harm. IMHO you can't have enough guns, my wife allways ask's me " How many guns do we need?" I answer the same way everytime. Just one more. My newsest addition is a Mosin Nagant shoots .762/54 round. With scope, real knock down power, at a distance. Sure aint a bb gun.
Mobility and multiple fallback points, if you aint mobile, you got some problems. If we have an EMP pulse all intergrated circuit boards are toast. Batterys too. I have an old ford truck, points, plugs, condenser, distributor, all with no computer. I keep a deep cycle marine battery in a lead lined box, with the truck.
You need to re-think the bbgun idea. A 22cal pistol or rifle is better than a bb gun. It aint squirrel's and rabbitts that want to cause you harm. IMHO you can't have enough guns, my wife allways ask's me " How many guns do we need?" I answer the same way everytime. Just one more. My newsest addition is a Mosin Nagant shoots .762/54 round. With scope, real knock down power, at a distance. Sure aint a bb gun.
edit on 30-5-2012 by
openyourmind1262 because: (no reason given)
edit on 30-5-2012 by openyourmind1262 because: (no reason given)
reply to post by daskakik
reply to post by daskakik
The only thing that I can think of that they could be talking about is recoil. My break barrel has just slightly less sound and recoil then a real 22 rifle does, where a pump gun has none. But the trade off is that it has tons more FPS, distance, and is a higher caliber.
Also in regards to buying a 22. A 22 is not a bad thing to own, but long term you can only maintain a 22 for exactly as many shots as you have firing (priming) caps to reload the ammo. Your last priming cap is your last shot, even if you can make the bullets, power, and casings. Plus ammo ages, and is prone to the effects of humidity and getting wet. Additionally, the maintenance and tolerances on a firearm is always going to be much higher then its lower powered kin. The fancier the gun, the faster its going to be a fancy club.
Bows are an even worse problem in many ways. Arrows are not a compact item to be toting around, and for both high-powered compound bows and crossbows, you cannot home build arrows without special equipment. If I made an arrow, knapped an head, and fletched it, then put it in either of these bows, the shaft would explode on release. A modern arrow actually flexes and compacts on release, even if you do not visually see it happen. Also these high-powered bows go through strings like water (especially crossbows), and the strings have to be to the correct tolerance.
Reliability of bows has historically been a problem, it was considered an art to properly construct one, and it might take up to a year to do. When I learned how to do knapping/fletching, I asked about learning to build a bow, and was told that it wasn't worth the time or trouble...
A better bow longevity wise is a recurve bow. You can produce reasonable strings and arrows that will work on a recurve, because its lower power means it has lower requirements. Because the strings an arrows are not put under the same levels of stress, you do not have to have replacements with prefect tolerances. When something fails, it will not be as catastrophic.
You can also get break-down recurves that will easily fit into a pack, but its arguable if you will take a reliability hit because of its coming apart into pieces. Of course, being able to break it down also means that you can replace parts rather then having to ditch the whole, when something does break.
Lets cut right through all the BS here and get right to the point. Most folks, especially here in the US, want things that are loud, explosive, cool looking, flashy, and high powered. People want to live out the fantasy of being Mad Max, or Pipboy, living after the end of the world. The truth is that those folks will not last long, and will die or kill each other off very quickly. The folks who will survive will be those who studied what worked in the past, even though its not high-powered, loud, cool looking, or flashy. Indians and settlers would survive for years with no support in a hostile environment with only what they would carry on their backs. You might not look cool without your tire armor and sawed off shotgun, but you will have a much better chance of long term survival.
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.
reply to post by daskakik
The only thing that I can think of that they could be talking about is recoil. My break barrel has just slightly less sound and recoil then a real 22 rifle does, where a pump gun has none. But the trade off is that it has tons more FPS, distance, and is a higher caliber.
Also in regards to buying a 22. A 22 is not a bad thing to own, but long term you can only maintain a 22 for exactly as many shots as you have firing (priming) caps to reload the ammo. Your last priming cap is your last shot, even if you can make the bullets, power, and casings. Plus ammo ages, and is prone to the effects of humidity and getting wet. Additionally, the maintenance and tolerances on a firearm is always going to be much higher then its lower powered kin. The fancier the gun, the faster its going to be a fancy club.
Bows are an even worse problem in many ways. Arrows are not a compact item to be toting around, and for both high-powered compound bows and crossbows, you cannot home build arrows without special equipment. If I made an arrow, knapped an head, and fletched it, then put it in either of these bows, the shaft would explode on release. A modern arrow actually flexes and compacts on release, even if you do not visually see it happen. Also these high-powered bows go through strings like water (especially crossbows), and the strings have to be to the correct tolerance.
Reliability of bows has historically been a problem, it was considered an art to properly construct one, and it might take up to a year to do. When I learned how to do knapping/fletching, I asked about learning to build a bow, and was told that it wasn't worth the time or trouble...
A better bow longevity wise is a recurve bow. You can produce reasonable strings and arrows that will work on a recurve, because its lower power means it has lower requirements. Because the strings an arrows are not put under the same levels of stress, you do not have to have replacements with prefect tolerances. When something fails, it will not be as catastrophic.
You can also get break-down recurves that will easily fit into a pack, but its arguable if you will take a reliability hit because of its coming apart into pieces. Of course, being able to break it down also means that you can replace parts rather then having to ditch the whole, when something does break.
Lets cut right through all the BS here and get right to the point. Most folks, especially here in the US, want things that are loud, explosive, cool looking, flashy, and high powered. People want to live out the fantasy of being Mad Max, or Pipboy, living after the end of the world. The truth is that those folks will not last long, and will die or kill each other off very quickly. The folks who will survive will be those who studied what worked in the past, even though its not high-powered, loud, cool looking, or flashy. Indians and settlers would survive for years with no support in a hostile environment with only what they would carry on their backs. You might not look cool without your tire armor and sawed off shotgun, but you will have a much better chance of long term survival.
As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.
A non CO2 air rifle sounds interesting... As mentioned enough already, good ones often are comparable to a 22.
Air rifles for big game hunting still seem pretty rare, yet examples do exist and were also mentioned earlier.
But what I think would be more interesting is custom making a long barrel air gun that could shoot a 1-1/2"x1/4" diameter metal slug made from something like a steel bolt machined into an aerodynamic shape. Maybe encasing that in some kind of teflon-plastic sabot to keep the barrel from wearing out. I suspect it would kick like a mule, and have similar hitting power to something like a 50 caliber. Fabricating such a thing would take some nice machine skills, but past that it's not much more complicated than moving a certain amount of mass past a certain velocity and compressed air should be more than sufficient to do the job. (Nothing in physics seems to indicate that you still couldn't scale up much from that either.)
Of course it seems unlikely you could shoot it with the frequency of a traditional firearm, then again such a weapon wouldn't exactly have to get traditional munitions or need other materials associated with firearms either. I don't think most governments appreciate or like the idea of that.
Not sure how useful such an "BB gun" is during a SHTF scenario, but I think it'd be fun for taking on a wager or two if somebody had some cinder blocks, logs, or old rusted out steel engine blocks or similar junk and time at an outdoor firing range.
Air rifles for big game hunting still seem pretty rare, yet examples do exist and were also mentioned earlier.
But what I think would be more interesting is custom making a long barrel air gun that could shoot a 1-1/2"x1/4" diameter metal slug made from something like a steel bolt machined into an aerodynamic shape. Maybe encasing that in some kind of teflon-plastic sabot to keep the barrel from wearing out. I suspect it would kick like a mule, and have similar hitting power to something like a 50 caliber. Fabricating such a thing would take some nice machine skills, but past that it's not much more complicated than moving a certain amount of mass past a certain velocity and compressed air should be more than sufficient to do the job. (Nothing in physics seems to indicate that you still couldn't scale up much from that either.)
Of course it seems unlikely you could shoot it with the frequency of a traditional firearm, then again such a weapon wouldn't exactly have to get traditional munitions or need other materials associated with firearms either. I don't think most governments appreciate or like the idea of that.
Not sure how useful such an "BB gun" is during a SHTF scenario, but I think it'd be fun for taking on a wager or two if somebody had some cinder blocks, logs, or old rusted out steel engine blocks or similar junk and time at an outdoor firing range.
Originally posted by defcon5
The only thing that I can think of that they could be talking about is recoil. My break barrel has just slightly less sound and recoil then a real 22 rifle does, where a pump gun has none. But the trade off is that it has tons more FPS, distance, and is a higher caliber.
The movement of the spring causes a forward lunge. Here is a vid with a couple tips on shooting springers:
Pumpers come in .22. PCPs go all the way up to .50 and can be filled with a special hand pump. The problem with PCPs is price. The big game pics you posted were taken with PCP, spring break guns can't pull that off.
FPS is a marketing gimmick. They get the speeds using lighter pellets but these pellets loose energy rather quickly. Heavy pellets hit harder down range. Using heavier pellets in a springer will cause the spring to fail sooner while pumpers can handle them and in return give better terminal velocity.
Also in regards to buying a 22. A 22 is not a bad thing to own, but long term you can only maintain a 22 for exactly as many shots as you have firing (priming) caps to reload the ammo.
You can't reload 22 they don't use priming caps (well there is supposed to be a way but it is iffy).
Any gun of any type is only going to be useful as long as there is ammo. Even pellets run out. Of course its easier to just make the projectile without having to worry about powder and brass.
Springs ware and break as well. So sooner or later it will need repairs. Pump up guns will too, but it is much easier to improvise a pump seal than a spring.
Now if you want to talk simplicity you can't beat a blowgun.
Bows are an even worse problem in many ways. Arrows are not a compact item to be toting around, and for both high-powered compound bows and crossbows, you cannot home build arrows without special equipment.
Well the suggestion was if firearms were out of the question. I would expect someone who is going to get into them to do their homework. If homemade arrows won't work in high power bows and crossbows get a low power version.
Personally I'd rather find a way to shoot arrows with an airgun, like in the vid I posted, but to do that springers are out because the arrows are too heavy.
edit on 30-5-2012 by daskakik because: (no reason given)
A high quality, powerful air rifle (pump, CO2 canisters run out) has a place for quiet small critter hunting.
Other than that they have no uses!
Definitely not for self protection, they will only get you killed. You would be better off with a baseball bat than one of those pistols.
At very least get a .22 rifle that will fill the food pot and could be used for defense. NOT recommended but will work better than a BB gun.
Other than that they have no uses!
Definitely not for self protection, they will only get you killed. You would be better off with a baseball bat than one of those pistols.
At very least get a .22 rifle that will fill the food pot and could be used for defense. NOT recommended but will work better than a BB gun.
reply to post by defcon5
Yeah, but the ammo is cheap and tiny. I'd wager I already have plenty of .22 ammo for most SHTF scenarios.
Also in regards to buying a 22. A 22 is not a bad thing to own, but long term you can only maintain a 22 for exactly as many shots as you have firing (priming) caps to reload the ammo. Your last priming cap is your last shot
Yeah, but the ammo is cheap and tiny. I'd wager I already have plenty of .22 ammo for most SHTF scenarios.
reply to post by Gazrok
Powder has a shelf life, and it gets unstable over time, becomes unreliable when exposed to humidity for long periods (especially down here if we lose our A/C units), etc.
You really don't want to get into a fight with one of those anyway. Even though they are the most common type of round that causes fatalities, they have no knockdown power to them, and people usually die later of secondary internal damage. If someone has on body armor, you might as well be throwing rocks at them.
The point is that you don't want to get into a fight period, and presenting that you have something worth defending only projects the idea that you are guarding something of great interest and value to the mob. I guarantee that the mob can overwhelm you no matter what type of hardware you spend a fortune buying.
Powder has a shelf life, and it gets unstable over time, becomes unreliable when exposed to humidity for long periods (especially down here if we lose our A/C units), etc.
You really don't want to get into a fight with one of those anyway. Even though they are the most common type of round that causes fatalities, they have no knockdown power to them, and people usually die later of secondary internal damage. If someone has on body armor, you might as well be throwing rocks at them.
The point is that you don't want to get into a fight period, and presenting that you have something worth defending only projects the idea that you are guarding something of great interest and value to the mob. I guarantee that the mob can overwhelm you no matter what type of hardware you spend a fortune buying.
reply to post by defcon5
That's why you organize your own mob for defense...
I have no interest in being a LMOE (Last Man On Earth). The .22 is just my BOB gun. Chosen for size, size and amount of ammo, etc. At the homestead, my standard is a .38, and a shotgun. Wouldn't mind getting a nice Glock 9mm, but it's more of a want than a need.
In a SHTF scenario, I have some family and friends who will make their way here, as we pull together to make it through it. Together, we've got a better chance than each alone.
Also, being in the country, our goal is to stay unnoticed, not advertise our location.
Not to worry, if they were wearing this, and coming to my place, they'd die of heat exhaustion before they reach me, wearing all that, in FL.
As for firefights. With modern hospitals closed (in a SHTF scenario), and only rudimentary medicine, the LAST thing I'd want is a firefight. You have to be ready in case... The nice thing about the .22 is, when his gun is going click, click, I'll still have plenty of rounds just in my pocket.
That's why you organize your own mob for defense...
I have no interest in being a LMOE (Last Man On Earth). The .22 is just my BOB gun. Chosen for size, size and amount of ammo, etc. At the homestead, my standard is a .38, and a shotgun. Wouldn't mind getting a nice Glock 9mm, but it's more of a want than a need.
In a SHTF scenario, I have some family and friends who will make their way here, as we pull together to make it through it. Together, we've got a better chance than each alone.
Also, being in the country, our goal is to stay unnoticed, not advertise our location.
If someone has on body armor, you might as well be throwing rocks at them.
Not to worry, if they were wearing this, and coming to my place, they'd die of heat exhaustion before they reach me, wearing all that, in FL.
As for firefights. With modern hospitals closed (in a SHTF scenario), and only rudimentary medicine, the LAST thing I'd want is a firefight. You have to be ready in case... The nice thing about the .22 is, when his gun is going click, click, I'll still have plenty of rounds just in my pocket.
edit on 20-6-2012 by Gazrok because: (no reason given)
This may be too Hollywood for some, but when I think of SHTF and self-defense, I think of the Old West. In those days, self-defense was having a real
gun (or two) and not going around with a BB gun. Suit yourself, but if things get as dicey as the Old West in a SituationX, best have real firearms
and ready, too.
Edit to add --- I can also see the usefulness of a good, strong, sharp sword after watching so many Samaurai movies recently. Those Samaurai defended themselves pretty darn good with sharp steel.
Edit to add --- I can also see the usefulness of a good, strong, sharp sword after watching so many Samaurai movies recently. Those Samaurai defended themselves pretty darn good with sharp steel.
edit on 21-6-2012 by switching yard because: (no reason given)
Scenario: You and your survivors are holed up in your safe place, and you all have BB guns.
Someone or a group of people approach with real guns. Are you gonna threaten with the BB guns?
I think in a SHTF scenario, BB guns would be better used as blunt objects.
If you shoot me with a BB gun, anywhere, I'm gonna break your knee. BB guns hurt, sure, but it's not gonna stop a person that is in a SHTF scenario. Where every second is a live or die decision, pretty much.
Someone or a group of people approach with real guns. Are you gonna threaten with the BB guns?
I think in a SHTF scenario, BB guns would be better used as blunt objects.
If you shoot me with a BB gun, anywhere, I'm gonna break your knee. BB guns hurt, sure, but it's not gonna stop a person that is in a SHTF scenario. Where every second is a live or die decision, pretty much.
Commercial weapons won't work when society isn't around any longer to produce the parts needed to maintain, everything breaks and once it does, then
what?
You are so much better off with simple weapons and weaponized concepts such as Improv weapons.
Think booby traps, Offensive and defensive, the only things that you can rely on it things you made yourself, guns are grand an a great way to move a object fast enough to hurt someone, but not the only means to do so.
Think Junk yard wars, but more literal.
You are so much better off with simple weapons and weaponized concepts such as Improv weapons.
Think booby traps, Offensive and defensive, the only things that you can rely on it things you made yourself, guns are grand an a great way to move a object fast enough to hurt someone, but not the only means to do so.
Think Junk yard wars, but more literal.
edit on 22-6-2012 by Moneyisgodlifeisrented because: (no reason given)
reply to post by RickGrimes
What about a crossbow,they are without doubt lethal and looking down the pointy end of a 150+lb will make your arse twitch big style.You can
make your own bolts and strings if you have to,they are legal and very cheap.They can be used for large size game as they can be very accurate and
extremely powerfull.We can settle this argument by arming ourselves, you with your BB gun and me with my crossbow go into the woods and see who dies
first
Originally posted by Moneyisgodlifeisrented
Commercial weapons won't work when society isn't around any longer to produce the parts needed to maintain, everything breaks and once it does, then what?
You are so much better off with simple weapons and weaponized concepts such as Improv weapons.
Think booby traps, Offensive and defensive, the only things that you can rely on it things you made yourself, guns are grand an a great way to move a object fast enough to hurt someone, but not the only means to do so.
Think Junk yard wars, but more literal.edit on 22-6-2012 by Moneyisgodlifeisrented because: (no reason given)
I'm not too worried about my guns breaking down. Firearms are by necessity quite robust,particularily bol action rifles and the like. There are many thousands of WW1 and WW2 rifles still out there and functioning well with only basic cleaning for maintenance. Most gun owners have more than one firearms,so even if one brakes, he'll likely have another on hand. Some people think that guns would dissapear soon after the fall of civilization,but that is just not so.
Ammo is a little more troublesome, but it's not difficult to accumulate enough ammo to last you a lifetime of careful shooting.if your only shooting for defenceor hunting, you probably won't be burning up thousands of rounds. A solid .22 bolt gun with a good supply of ammo doesn't take up much room or money,and I really can't see any good reason not to have one if your truly convinced that the end is near.
Bows and crossbows are great, but much more prone to wear and breakage than firearms. They are quite,and lots of fun to shoot,so why not get that too? You'll probably never need it, but you may find a fun hobby once you get one.
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