Are these 9/11 conspiracies based upon culture rather than fact?

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by SystemFailure1994

 

If I remember correctly that proposal was not the product of the "military" but a proposal put forward by one officer and I don't think there's any proof that the proposal got as far as the Oval Office and as far as I know there is no evidence Kennedy ever saw it.

Hi hooper,
So can you fill us in on Lemnitzer's Early Years?
Like where his daddy came from and what culture? Where he went to school and what he studied. Who his cronnies were? His mom and her background?
He signed off on the Operation CORRECT?
How about the other Chiefs got any poop on them?
thanks ljb
PS is it a begining of the 911 culture or a dead end?

reply to post by SystemFailure1994

System,
Thank you for a very informative post on Northwoods.
Shall we connect other false flags that WERE carried out?
Possibly with US tax dollars.
Concerning the US but perpatrated by Isreal and basicly over looked by the US. And after the murder of Kennedy?
Like USS LIBERTY and who was on watch?
The Levon Affair? etc etc
connecting the dots
ljb

reply to post by GoodOlDave

No, actually I don't. Unless you're claiming that GWB and Dick Cheney personally snuck into the WTC to plant these secret demolitions themsleves...and I've no idea what their personal experience is with explosives...they're necessarily going to need the help of the very corp of incompetent boobs who can't hand out bottles of water to hurricane survivors in New Orleans without slipping on banana peels.

Again with the incompetent government workers bit. And again, it would be the very skilled black ops people that would be selected for a job like that. Just because there is incompetence in the government does not preclude inside involvement, nor does it mean that everyone is incompetent. My point with GWB, Cheney, and the rest, connecting them with a Rockefeller was simply to say that there exists a global shadow government that really calls the shots and has for quite a while. The same group that funded both sides of WWII. The same group that likes to use the Hegelian problem-reaction-solution dialectic over and over.

Problem: Terrorists hate us for our freedom
Reaction: Oh no, terrorists are going to take over the world. The mass populace is afraid
Solution: Taking away our freedoms for our safety against the terrorists with things like the Patriot Act.

Look at Nixon- regardless of how self assured he himself was his entire administration still came crashing down simply because of a security guard that noticed a piece of tape on a door.

In 'Family of Secrets" about the Bush's,. Russ Baker talks about how GHWB was involved in the downfall of Nixon in some subtle and not so subtle ways. It is a very thick, well researched book if you want more insight into the Bush family. Bush's involvement is therefore very interesting from a historical context considering the administration that stepped in to fill the hole (Ford's see post above).

Let;s face it, all you have is innuendo of impropriety here. I'm the one shaking his head in disbelief that there are police who are such monumental idiots that they genuinely think it's a good idea to buy back murder weapons from criminals no questions asked.

And the proof for the OS is really that much more believable? When you have a whole lot of historical context and a lot of "coincidences" it becomes stronger than innuendo. And again, what do incompetent police have to do with anything?

reply to post by GoodOlDave

To the second question, in my opinion, no it hasn't even remotely been investigated fully. The 9/11 attack was the most historically significant event since Pearl Harbor so in my mind it should be investigated left, right, up, and down for future generations, and yet we're treating it as if it's something we should forget.

Did you ever ask yourself why it hasn't been investigated fully?
Why there were so many questions left unanswered or overlooked in the Omission Report?
Why ABLE Dangers information was not used?
It's absolutely on purpose and has nothing to do with incompetent government workers.
It's a cover up plain and simple. And then the question becomes why.

As to the who:

You know as well as I do this is NOT what the conspiracy theorists are pushing, though, as they're claiming it was a staged event by culprits ranging from the US gov't to Israel to the masons to secret cults of Satan worshipping numerologists.

I don't see how that's a problem, especially when it is understood that the cabal variously known as Illuminati/TPTB/etc. has infiltrated the US govt (and other governments worldwide as well, including Israel), they use the intelligence agencies like Mossad, CIA, MI6, etc to do their dirty work, they recruit at the highest stages of various secret societies, including the Masons, and they are based on ancient Egyptian and Kaballistic knowledge, which includes use of numerology and, in some cases, Luciferian ideas.

You make it sound like people can't agree on the whodunnits, and that somehow completely supports the OS, but they are really just talking about the same group of people looking at it from different angles rather than from the big picture perspective. Again, it's a tactic of confusion like trying to equate highly skilled black ops agents with incompetent government workers or focusing on the more far out theories on the CT side like space lasers. Besides, can you say with any certainty that people that put out the crazy theories like that aren't doing it on purpose to discredit the CT side?

Originally posted by longjohnbritches


Ha Ha hee he
So you would just blow it all up to show what an UPTOWN dude Mr Tricks is.
Where the yehewe do you live SUDAN?? And where do you get the 4 bucks a gallon from??? Pallistine??

Yes, I live in Sudan and get petrol from Palestine. Despite there being no oil there.

What is the point of you, exactly?

Everyone's gotta earn a paycheck...

reply to post by longjohnbritches


Can't say I know very much at all about the Lavon Affair or USS Liberty attacks. But I take it you implying that Israel was behind the 9/11 attacks, or had some part to play in them? The 'dancing Israeli' stories are interesting, and the FBI apparently concluded that Israel had some intelligence gathering operation underway at the time in NYC. If I remember corectly Netanyahu or someone similar stated that the '9/11 attacks would be good for Israel', but don't quote me on that.

There is simply so much evidence towards foreknowledge, cover-up etc. that we could fill pages with it. If even one shred of this information is true, then what are the implications? On the other hand, much of the evidence conflicts with other evidence, implicates so many different parties, and the whole thing is so clouded in fact, fiction, information and disinformation that it is probably impossible to tell what the hell happened from our removed perspectives.

I'd say to keep this on topic the focus needs to be on the Project for the New American Century, to me its easier to find high-level influences here rather than elsewhere. The PNAC was a neo-conservative think tank from which many individuals entered the Bush administration and held prominent positions in industry and government before and after. You can read the documents in question online but a key one mentions the maintainence of US interests in the middle-east, and a need for 'a new Pearl Harbour' like attack to allow the decisive action that was needed:

... Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolunionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event -- like a new Pearl Harbor. ...

... While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein ...

I'm sure your all familiar with PNAC and the possible motives the neo-cons, their corporate allies, Israel and the banker elite would have for allowing the attack to happen/provoking an attack/carrying out the attack themselves. There are just too many interweaved threads in this to go through, and they have all been analysed in depth on ATS and elsewhere. Two decent sites are below, as long as you remember to take everything with a pinch of salt:

911research.wtc7.net...
911review.com...

Originally posted by longjohnbritches
reply to post by SystemFailure1994

 

System,
Thank you for a very informative post on Northwoods.
Shall we connect other false flags that WERE carried out?
Possibly with US tax dollars.
Concerning the US but perpatrated by Isreal and basicly over looked by the US. And after the murder of Kennedy?
Like USS LIBERTY and who was on watch?
The Levon Affair? etc etc
connecting the dots
ljb

You know, this actually tells us something about yourself that you might not realize. My position is that a lot of conspiracy theorists are actually people who are approaching this NOT as a genuine scholar, but as people who were wallowing in conspiracies BEFORE the 9/11 attack, and so when the 9/11 attack occurred they naturally see it as yet another conspiracy the same way a hammer sees everything as a nail. You're all read up on Northwoods, Kennedy assassination conspiracies, the USS Liberty conspiracy (which I myself can't comprehend how it would even be a conspiracy, seeing that Israel openly admitted it was their fault from day one, so the hammer is probably seeing that as a nail too), the Levon affair, and no doubt a blizzard of other conspiracies you haven't mentioned yet. You're so well versed in these conspiracies that I didn't even know about the Levon affair until you mention it just now. It's THAT obscure.

In such a case, these 9/11 conspiracy theories are in fact based upon culture rather than facts, because you've a member of a culture that tries to interpret everything from an attack by Islamic fundamentalists to some native in Borneo falling off a cliff while hunting pigs in the jungle as being yet another conspiracy. In fact I daresay the whole reason you even started going to those damned fool 9/11 conspiracy websites to begin with was specifically to find out how the 9/11 attack was yet another conspiracy in the neverending string of conspiracies. Finding actual evidence that backs any of these claims up is of distant secondary importance to you, if that.

Am I wrong?

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
I for one think the gov't doesn't want to admit it's gigantic incompetence in its handling of 9/11, so this "the gov't was behind it all" is coming entirely from you truthers.

This is far more than incompetence. It takes real skill to be this bad. You conveniently dismiss people like FBI translator Sibel Edmonds, Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta, who testified at the 911 Joke Hearings that he personally witnessed the Cheney stand down and that he did not enter his office until about 40 minutes later than the official BS story.... Rumsfeld changing the shoot-down directive in June, and it goes on and on and on. These heroic people put their lives on the line to try and have justice served and all you can do is tell us its all a figment of our imagination and that we're ALL influenced by websites run by lunatics.

Let me tell YOU, SIR, that you are the one with the hive mind mentality who finds it much easier to just go along with the crowd. You have minimized the greatest travesty of the modern era into a bunch of deluded "truthers" and are doing everything in your power to have all these Neo-Nazi criminals walk off scot free, just like they did with JFK.

To me, this makes you COMPLICIT to their crimes. You're an intelligent guy. There's no excuse. Nice going Dave!

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
the USS Liberty conspiracy (which I myself can't comprehend how it would even be a conspiracy, seeing that Israel openly admitted it was their fault from day one,

I bet that sounded real convincing in your head.
By the way, the USS Liberty attack is a conspiracy due to the fact that it even happened. The Israelis KNEW it was an American ship. They never apologized for that. Every single survivor of that attack on that ship contends that the American AND Israeli formal conclusions are absolutely wrong. How is that not a conspiracy?

You dont even make sense.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
Am I wrong?

Laughably.

And then there's the 911 slide show on the back of those Talismans the Fed prints that we call money.....

Originally posted by aching_knuckles

 

I bet that sounded real convincing in your head.
By the way, the USS Liberty attack is a conspiracy due to the fact that it even happened. The Israelis KNEW it was an American ship. They never apologized for that. Every single survivor of that attack on that ship contends that the American AND Israeli formal conclusions are absolutely wrong. How is that not a conspiracy?

Oh, bullsh*t. Israel apologized for it twice, AND paid restitution to the families of the people they killed. It was in the middle of a war and they said they thought it was an enemy ship from the position it was located, and they stopped firing once they realized it was a US ship, and I accept that answer becuase between the numerous fighter bombers an gunboats they had in the area, if they genuinely wanted to blow it out of the water, they could have done it with ease and be back at base in time for chow. A conspiracy is someone doing something under the table and then lying to cover it up, not stopping what they were doing, admitting it, and apologizing while voluntarily paying restitution to make up for it.

At least with these 9/11 conspiracy theories, they actually do come up with quasi-legitimate soundng motives for why the conspirators would want to do that- oil, global positioning, and so on. How on Earth does a friendly fire incident contribute toward these sinister secret plots to take over the world?

You dont even make sense.

More likely than not, that's because I'm not operating any of those damned fool 9/11 conspiracy websites you go to for all your information. Speaking of which, if my earlier statement was wrong, then why is it that you're the one who's seeing all these connections between the USS Liberty attack and the 9/11 attack that noone else is seeing? MY answer is that you read it on some damned fool conspiracy website. What's YOUR answer?

reply to post by GoodOlDave

Sorry for the long post, but I think its worth reading.

Not to take sides or neccessarily defend the whole 'conspiracy theorist' community, but I just felt I have to mention a couple of things.

You made some excellent points and are right about many people coming into the whole 'scene' with a biased perspective. There is an established psychological explanation for the need many people feel to invent a malevolent conspiracy in certain cases; the higher power behind the curtain idea. I'm sure this could partially be the reason so many people believe in God (there are others but I won't go into them here); that the weak-minded need an overall controller to blame when things go wrong. Chaos is just a little too frightening for some people.

However, that doesn't mean what these people say isn't true. You can go into a situation biased as hell but still manage the discover the truth, you know the analogy of a team of monkeys on typewriters eventually writing the entire works of Shakespeare given enough time? Your judgement may be clouded, but this can help in some ways as it gives you a certain amount of drive, though of course this is often misdirected.

The term 'conspiracy theorist' or 'conspiracy theory' is thrown around often in a derogatory way, but what does it really mean? In truth the official/mainstream explanation for 9/11 is a conspiracy theory; the presented explanation that a group of evil men colluded in secret to plan and carry out an attack against a large number of people. Its now just an empty insult really.

Going back to the OP, yes the whole thing is deeply affected by culture - it shapes our viewpoints and forms our idea. But the truth is still the truth, regardless of how you stumble upon it.

As I said earlier, 9/11 is that is such a compelling thing to speculate over because there is simply so much information (correct or incorrect) around the issue, probably because of its significant in recent history. You can come at it from all sides and find things to back-up almost every argument. I'm not sure that there was a cover-up, but from what I have seen I would say at the very least the US government twisted the situation to their advantage (their's mind you, not the American people's), and very probably they let the attack happen, perhaps going as far as to have some part in planning the attacks themselves. You must have to look at it on balance of probablities, through evidence, and decide for yourself. Of course this is hard from our detatched viewpoint.

Lets say like me you lean towards the so-called 'conspiracy theory' (the non-mainstream one), then of course you are going to start connecting the dots and drawing connections that will lead to other things. You might think 'well if they can pull this off what else have they done?' and start looking into the JFK murder, or the 7/7 London bombins for instance. You have be careful because there is a lot of crap out there, but things will start to fall into place and you have an alternate worldview that will make you look at every news story with a sceptical eye.

The key to this stuff is compartmentalisation, and the pyramid hierarchy structure. It really doesn't need to take many people in the know to pull-off even a huge thing like 9/11, as long as everyone does their job and doesn't question what their told (and who does these days). The precedent is there. Everyone is kept in there own little box, working away at their own little job, so that nobody can see the overall picture other than the handful of people at the top of the pyramid (excuse the NWO/Illuminati references please). Its quite likely that nobody understands the system in its wholeness, as everyone will be pulling someone elses strings and having their's pulled at the same time. Plausible deniability.

This doesn't prove 9/11 was an inside job, but it hopefully shows that it would not be as impossible as some people suggest.

In such a case, these 9/11 conspiracy theories are in fact based upon culture rather than facts, because you've a member of a culture that tries to interpret everything from an attack by Islamic fundamentalists to some native in Borneo falling off a cliff while hunting pigs in the jungle as being yet another conspiracy. In fact I daresay the whole reason you even started going to those damned fool 9/11 conspiracy websites to begin with was specifically to find out how the 9/11 attack was yet another conspiracy in the neverending string of conspiracies. Finding actual evidence that backs any of these claims up is of distant secondary importance to you, if that.

reply to post by GoodOlDave



So you are here trying to convince people that 9/11 is just another crazy conspiracy theory made up by all of the crazy people that you call truthers. The fact that nearly all of the governments on earth have history of being pathological liars, and have planed, or in some cases even conduct false flag operations, and kill their own people since the beginning of time doesn’t mean a thing and should be ignored.

You have made 4,144 posts since 4-4-2009 contradicting yourself. One minute you say truthers are crazy for thinking the government was behind it, and then you say that treason was never investigated but should be because it happened before.

try sitting back and read instead of posting. Your opinion has been duly noted.

Don't you know that you can't change culture? Why do you start these threads?

Let us know if your opinion changes.

reply to post by SystemFailure1994

Hi system
Well done, thanks for taking the time to type and enlighten.
Thought provocation and propagation. As to mushroom sheepleism.
the best ljb

FBI apparently concluded that Israel had some intelligence gathering operation underway at the time in NYC.

reply to post by SystemFailure1994


The NSA is simply outsourcing spying to foreign companies. Some of them are Israeli.
I don’t know when they started outsourcing before or after 9/11. Still doesn’t sound like a good idea to me.

For all who deny
Check the 2005 awards at the bottom of article.
The affair may be somewhat dated but those awards bring it front and center.
Just another pearl in the garrote necklace.


Lavon Affair From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Pinhas LavonThe Lavon Affair refers to a failed Israeli covert operation, code named Operation Susannah, conducted in Egypt in the Summer of 1954. As part of the false flag operation,[1] a group of Egyptian Jews were recruited by Israeli military intelligence for plans to plant bombs inside Egyptian, American and British-owned targets. The attacks were to be blamed on the Muslim Brotherhood, Egyptian Communists, "unspecified malcontents" or "local nationalists" with the aim of creating a climate of sufficient violence and instability to induce the British government to retain its occupying troops in Egypt's Suez Canal zone.[2] The operation caused no casualties, except for those members of the cell who committed suicide after being captured.

The operation became known as the Lavon Affair after the Israeli defense minister Pinhas Lavon, who was forced to resign because of the incident, or euphemistically as the Unfortunate Affair or The Bad Business (Hebrew: העסק ביש‎, HaEsek Bish or העסק הביש, HaEsek HaBish). After being denied for 51 years, the surviving agents were in 2005 officially honored with a certificate of appreciation by the Israeli President Moshe Katzav

God bless America
ljb

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
A conspiracy is someone doing something under the table and then lying to cover it up, not stopping what they were doing, admitting it, and apologizing while voluntarily paying restitution to make up for it.

Voluntarily paying restitution, you say?

On 18 December 1980, under threat of a congressional investigation,[7] it finally agreed to pay $6 million as settlement for the final U.S. bill of $17,132,709 for material damage to the Liberty itself plus 13 years' interest.[8]

13 years after the fact. And as a direct result of a threat of a Congressional investigation. Hardly "voluntarily".

You sir, are now a proven liar.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
How on Earth does a friendly fire incident contribute toward these sinister secret plots to take over the world?

Because the Israelis wanted to US citizens to think Egypt did it.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
Oh, bullsh*t....they said they thought it was an enemy ship from the position it was located, and they stopped firing once they realized it was a US ship, and I accept that answer becuase between the numerous fighter bombers an gunboats they had in the area, if they genuinely wanted to blow it out of the water, they could have done it with ease and be back at base in time for chow.

Really? Here are the facts of the case:

Shorlty before the Liberty's identity was confirmed, the USS Saratoga launched eight warplanes armed with conventional weapons towards the Liberty. After the ship's identity was confirmed, the General Staff was notified and an apology was sent to naval attaché Castle. The aircraft approaching the Liberty were recalled to the Saratoga.[24]

They attacked it for over an hour, and only stopped when warplanes were launched from the USS Saratoga.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
Oh, bullsh*t....they said they thought it was an enemy ship from the position it was located,

The USS Liberty was located in international waters.

You are lying, repeatedly. You have no credibility to me whatsoever at this point - you are either ignorant of recorded history or you are pushing your own false agenda. So, who exactly is talking bull?

Another pearl in the garrat neckless of 911 culture.

Would someone please make a link available so it will be easy to read the entire article? I am link ignorant.
It is truly eye opening. Of course you could just paste the title into your search box.

9-11 Attacks: The Five Dancing Israelis Arrested on 9-11
whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html - Similarto 9-11 Attacks: The Five Dancing Israelis Arrested on 9-11

It also explains why the New York Post and Steve Gordon (lawyer for the 5 Israelis) originally described how three Israelis were arrested but later increased the ...

The best ljb