Are these 9/11 conspiracies based upon culture rather than fact?

reply to post by GoodOlDave


Are 911 conspiracies based on culture rather than fact?

Absolutly NOT.
Culture is what allowed the worm head false flags and totally incompent evil doers to keep the sheeples heads in the mushroom food.

Actually there is no longer even a conspiracy.
You acknowledge this by not even asking "are 911 conspiracies,"
NOT conspiracy THEORIES.
Thank you davo
The march is closer and closer to the new INVESTIGATION
ljb

Originally posted by GoodOlDave

Originally posted by hooper
Actually, Americans are sufficiently scientifically sophisticated to know the evidence of their eyes versus what some internet pilot dictates is and is not possible based on his washer and copy paper loops model.

Or, it's the case that most other attempts at explaining how the towers fell were concise, articulate and the authors explained how they arrived at their findings pretty well, and they didn't force people to become physics experts to understand why the heck watching a video of someone hitting a cardboard ladder with a rock on a string to demonstrate how far it swayed had anything to do with anything.

This whole bit is junk science, plain and simple.

So how do you say people have to become physics experts and that it is junk science at the same time?

All you can do is play psychological bullsh# games via ridicule and not get people to UNDERSTAND anything.

So if Hooper and Dave ridicule something then it must be wrong because they say so. The Conservation of Momentum and the Distribution of Mass are

SO HARD to Comprehend,

People must be kept ignorant to keep them believing nonsense.

psik

Originally posted by SystemFailure1994
reply to post by maxella1

 

Very well put. The precedent is certainly there, and it does not take a great leap in imagination to believe that history would again repeat itself like it has so many times before.

Many academics now believe that the Nazis were involved in the arson attack on the Reichstag in 1933, the event that allowed Hitler and his supporters to rise to power in Germany. But, the events seem remarkably similar to something that took place more recently:

1) The Nazis used the attack as evidence that Communists were involved in a plot against the German government, allowing the removal of their main opposition due to their part in a greater conspiracy. (Al Qaeda/Bin Laden blame depite initial denial of involvement, fabrication of evidence etc.).

2) Emergency measures were put into place to withdraw civil liberties and crack down on political dissent within the country. (PATRIOT Act, Dep. of Homeland Security etc. 'Your either with us, or your with the terrorists').

3) The attack gave the Nazis greater political influence and support, and allowed them to consolidate their power by appealing to nationalist sentiment. (Renewed support for Bush administration, free-reign due to draping himself in the flag).

4) A hurried and questionnable investigation placed the blame directly on the Communists, even implicating figures entirely unrelated to the attack. (9/11 Commission and invasion of Iraq).

I could go on. If it ain't broke don't fix it eh?

Don't bother you are obviously ignorant of history.
Marks Lenin Trotsky et al
On topic is Operation Northwoods.
Dare to post the authors name??

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade

Originally posted by aching_knuckles


I think its pretty obvious that corporations control the government.

Absolutely. I was driving around some bits of America last week and christ what a dump it is. Identikit towns full of tasteless, boxy houses and the same eight or ten chain 'restaurants' and shops.

The chain food places are actually a very good example of this. They've lobbied government so they can produce horrifically bad - in fact dangerous - meat and sell it at low prices, shutting out smaller competition. The interesting thing is that they've enlisted the support of the kind of people who purport to like "freedom" as though they are in some way an expression of the joys of the market. Precisely the kind of people who hate the government find themsleves unwittingly shilling for huge corporations because to not do so would be to somehow deny market capitalism and therefore "freedom".

And how do conspiracy theories fit into this? Mostly they're just a psychological tool whereby the believer doesn't have to do anything about anything because the CT convinces them that everything is beyond repair.

Ha Ha hee he
So you would just blow it all up to show what an UPTOWN dude Mr Tricks is.
Where the yehewe do you live SUDAN?? And where do you get the 4 bucks a gallon from??? Pallistine??

reply to post by GoodOlDave

I can tell you with complete certainty that people go into the public sector because they're dead weight and wouldn't be able to survive in the private sector.

Ok, again, I'm assuming that you are trying to use this as an argument against an inside job. However, here's another layer of facts for you regarding 9/11 and the "shadow governments" involvement or potential for involvement

Gerald Ford White House 1974-1977

Gerald Ford-President, member of Warren Commission, 33rd deg Mason,
Nelson Rockefeller-Vice President, A Rockefeller and Grandson of John D, nuff said
Dick Cheney-Chief of Staff, GHWB Secretary of Defense, director of CFR foreign policy, CEO of Halliburton 1995-7/25/2000
George HW Bush-Director of CIA, VP a short 4 years later
Donald Rumsfeld-Fords 1st Chief of StaffSecretary of Defense, CEO GD Searle 1977-1985, CEO General Instrument 90-93
Henry Kissinger-Secretary of State

George W Bush White House 9/11/2001

GWB-Chief Idiot, Skull and Bones
Dick Cheney-Vice President
Donald Rumsfeld-Secretary of Defense
Colin Powell-Secretary of State, National Security Advisor under Reagan.

Get the idea?

reply to post by coyotepoet

Hi coy
Why did you not include William S. Cohn???
and slick Willie??
thanks ljb

reply to post by longjohnbritches

Hi coy Why did you not include William S. Cohn??? and slick Willie?? thanks ljb

I was trying to draw the quickest parallels between a specific group of people and a Rockefeller, as well as pointing out the number of ways these specific people intertwine.

Originally posted by Myendica
Dave, if I own an apartment complex, and you pay rent or tax, to me, and with that stipend, im supposed to make sure no birds every come on the property, and especially to keep birds from crapping on your car. And today I see a flock of birds heading our way. And tomorrow morning, a bird craps on your car, and I sit back and watch the next 3 birds crap on your car,..... Whos at fault? You specifically pay me to protect your car and property that you rent from me, from bird crap. So, I am at fault. Just like, regardless of "who" orchestrated 9/11, the u.s. Government was at fault. They were negligent. We paid them to protect us. They saw it coming days before. They saw it coming after the 1st crash. They failed. Someone should have been arrested and exiled for their failure. No one did. Being the most powerful, and "free" nation means you punish those who didnt do their jobs. They failed.

I don't think you'll find many people who disagree with this. But can you see that this is why they mounted the coverup? When the 9/11 commissioners talk about access and slipperiness behind the scenes this is what they mean. It's not actually that sinister - in fact it's rather dull. But that doesn't mean it's not important.

Originally posted by longjohnbritches

Originally posted by SystemFailure1994
reply to post by maxella1

 

Don't bother you are obviously ignorant of history.
Marks Lenin Trotsky et al
On topic is Operation Northwoods.
Dare to post the authors name??

What was it that shows I am ignorant of history please? I was simply stating what some academics that have studied the subject now believe, and drew some parallels with the 9/11 attacks.

Also, what do the communists you mentioned have to do with this (I presume you meant Marx rather than Marks, and even so he and Lenin were already dead and Trotsky was in exile)? The level, if any, of high-level Comintern complicity in the arson is debatable, as this theory was pushed forwards by the Nazis so they had their excuse for what they would go on to do. Most either believe van der Lubbe acted alone, or that the Nazis were involved, or some combination of the two. Very few would say high-ranking communists had any foreknowledge of the attacks.

The author of what? Your post makes no sense. Did you mean the Op. Northwoods document? If so that was supposedly drafted by the Joint Chiefs of Staff but rejected by Kennedy. If you could explain what it is that I said you have a problem with then we get a debate going, but i'm afraid I don't have a clue what you are talking about.

reply to post by coyotepoet


Thanks poet
keep on trackin
ljb

reply to post by SystemFailure1994


Your reply is fair enough.
Let's make this easy.
Would you care to post up the JOINT CHIEF of Staff's bio's.
We can then track their loyalties.
Will you start with the Chairman??
I will help and we can then see if there is any connection to 911
a Northwoods copy catoperation.
thanks ljb

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade

Originally posted by Myendica
Dave, if I own an apartment complex, and you pay rent or tax, to me, and with that stipend, im supposed to make sure no birds every come on the property, and especially to keep birds from crapping on your car. And today I see a flock of birds heading our way. And tomorrow morning, a bird craps on your car, and I sit back and watch the next 3 birds crap on your car,..... Whos at fault? You specifically pay me to protect your car and property that you rent from me, from bird crap. So, I am at fault. Just like, regardless of "who" orchestrated 9/11, the u.s. Government was at fault. They were negligent. We paid them to protect us. They saw it coming days before. They saw it coming after the 1st crash. They failed. Someone should have been arrested and exiled for their failure. No one did. Being the most powerful, and "free" nation means you punish those who didnt do their jobs. They failed.

I don't think you'll find many people who disagree with this. But can you see that this is why they mounted the coverup? When the 9/11 commissioners talk about access and slipperiness behind the scenes this is what they mean. It's not actually that sinister - in fact it's rather dull. But that doesn't mean it's not important.

Quite right

And when you factor in what is much worse.
The giving of American taxpayer dollars to rogue suedo nations
like Isreal and have them turn around and spy on them.
While they get said Americans to send off their families to die defending that worthless sanctioned kubutz.
you guys are right on
ljb

Originally posted by coyotepoet
GWB-Chief Idiot, Skull and Bones
Dick Cheney-Vice President
Donald Rumsfeld-Secretary of Defense
Colin Powell-Secretary of State, National Security Advisor under Reagan.

Get the idea?

No, actually I don't. Unless you're claiming that GWB and Dick Cheney personally snuck into the WTC to plant these secret demolitions themsleves...and I've no idea what their personal experience is with explosives...they're necessarily going to need the help of the very corp of incompetent boobs who can't hand out bottles of water to hurricane survivors in New Orleans without slipping on banana peels. Look at Nixon- regardless of how self assured he himself was his entire administration still came crashing down simply because of a security guard that noticed a piece of tape on a door.

Let;s face it, all you have is innuendo of impropriety here. I'm the one shaking his head in disbelief that there are police who are such monumental idiots that they genuinely think it's a good idea to buy back murder weapons from criminals no questions asked.

reply to post by longjohnbritches


I wouldn't go as far as saying that 9/11 was be a copycat of Op. Northwoods. The latter remained as only a proposal with many crucial differences, and was rejected wholeheartedly by Kennedy (perhaps yet another case of him not playing 'their' game by the rules 'they' set, creating enemies in the CIA and Military as he did so). However, there are certainly parallels to be made.

Importantly, the military obviously thought it possible that such a false-flag could be carried out without the public finding out its true nature. Does this not make the alternate 9/11 theories more credible (many of them are actually far simpler than the Op. Northwoods plans), especially as they were carried out after almost a further 40 years technological progress. Also, Op. Northwoods would not the last false-flag plan, indicating this was a commonly considered strategy at the time (the Gulf of Tonkin incident was probably an example of this, and was admitted to have been false by SoD McNamara - another figure that needs scrutiny).

The US government has proven beyond doubt that they will take advantage of an event by twisting the facts to meet their own needs, and that they will plan false-flag attacks, but we need to find if they have ever actually carried one out, particularly with 9/11.

The Joint Chief Chairman at the time of the Op. Northwoods planning was General Lyman Lemnitzer, who had spent his life rising through the ranks of the army. He served on the staff of the future President, General Eisenhower, and eventually made his way upwards to become the Joint Chief for the Army. Later, as Chairman he approved the plans for Op. Northwoods but was denied another term as JCS Chairman by Kennedy after he had rejected the plans. He then became Commander of U.S. Forces in Europe, and then Supreme Allied Commander of NATO.

Interestingly, President Ford appointed him to the Rockerfeller Commission on CIA Activities, which investigated allegations of conspiracies into the murder of JFK and other unlawful CIA activities inc. Op. MKULTRA. Frank Sturgis (one of the Watergate burglars) and E. Howard Hunt were allegedly involved in the the assassaination (Hunt supposedly later admitted they had been part of the JFK plot), but the commission overall was seen as a whitewash as was superceded in scope and scale by the Church Committee.

This is all very shady and potentially connects numerous topics spanning many different administrations, though Lemnitzer died in 1988 and his involvement in such matters is uncertain.

reply to post by SystemFailure1994


If I remember correctly that proposal was not the product of the "military" but a proposal put forward by one officer and I don't think there's any proof that the proposal got as far as the Oval Office and as far as I know there is no evidence Kennedy ever saw it.

reply to post by GoodOlDave


In your opinion, is it possible that al-qaeda succeeded on 9/11 with the help of someone within the US government and/or other agencies in the US?

And in your opinion, was this particular issue investigated and proved beyond doubt that the answer in no?

I know one guy who works for a major university, and there was one custodian there who was such a hardcore drunk that he ran across the campus grounds naked, and the university administration figured that after all the union hearings, arbitrations, reviews, and other union procedures were followed it would take them TWO YEARS to fire the guy. So, they simply transferred him to another university so he'd be someone else's problem. My friend's own boss was a complete and utter incompetent boob who did absolutely nothing but delegate all work to my friend, and everyone has to put up with this because they're unionized and his boss has seniority. ...and these characters are supposedly the ones who were able to successfully sneak into an occupied building and plant invisible explosives with the sheer perfection of coordination and coverup that rivals a supernatural act. Pull my other leg, why don't you.

reply to post by GoodOlDave


Today some people that I work with wanted me to go to a local fast food restaurant for lunch, they were telling me that the food and service is excellent, and staff is friendly and very efficient. But I know better because my friend used to work at another fast food restaurant and he tells me that one of the kitchen staff is a drunk, and one time ran naked across the kitchen. But instead of firing this guy they just transferred him to another location so that he will be somebody else s problem.

They are trying to tell me that these characters are able to be so friendly and efficient and serve good food. Pull my other leg why don’t you!

They're so silly!

Originally posted by maxella1
reply to post by GoodOlDave


In your opinion, is it possible that al-qaeda succeeded on 9/11 with the help of someone within the US government and/or other agencies in the US?

And in your opinion, was this particular issue investigated and proved beyond doubt that the answer in no?

In my opinion, yes, it is possible there might have been some turncoats within the US gov't that aided and abetted the al Qaida attack. Turncoats have in fact appeared throughout the nation's history from Benadict Arnold to Tokyo Rose to the Rosenbergs to the Walker family so it's not any stretch of imagination there was treason involving the 9/11 attack. Plus, we've had a terrorist or two here on American soil attempt to blow up something or another so we know that someone out there is up to no good. You know as well as I do this is NOT what the conspiracy theorists are pushing, though, as they're claiming it was a staged event by culprits ranging from the US gov't to Israel to the masons to secret cults of Satan worshipping numerologists. I've even seen one guy claim Canada was behind it. According to them, the only ones completely innocent seem to be Bin Laden and Al Qaida. The question therefore becomes, is this really an attempt to find the truth or is it just an attempt to force feed their pet conspiracy theories to everyone regardless of what the truth is?

To the second question, in my opinion, no it hasn't even remotely been investigated fully. The 9/11 attack was the most historically significant event since Pearl Harbor so in my mind it should be investigated left, right, up, and down for future generations, and yet we're treating it as if it's something we should forget. That's not to say they're going to miraculously discover the buildings really were destroyed by lasers from outer space but they might discover it succeeded because some dope had an imminent warning of an attack sitting forgotten on his desk, the same way military intelligence sent a warning of an imminent Japanese attack to US commanders at Pearl Harbor...by standard Western Union telegraph, so that it arrived well after the attack was over. Already tidbits are starting to pop up on how the authorities were less than forthcoming, with interceptors being ordered to chase phantom planes to leaders in sensitive positions crapping out on their responsibilities. If there was in fact a turncoat then we need to find that out too....but we obviously can't do that when we're wasting all our time bickering over ridiculous distractions like hologram planes and cruise missiles hitting the Pentagon.

Here's a question for you- if, by some manner, someone does hold an independent investigation, what do you think the likelihood would be that, if the investigation ruled the attack was genuinely and conclusively a terrorist attack by Islamic fundamentalists, that any of these "nukes in the basement" theorists, the "fake buildings" theorists, the "staged crash site" theorists, or any of the other theorists, would ever accept the findings?

Text

reply to post by GoodOlDave

Here's a question for you- if, by some manner, someone does hold an independent investigation, what do you think the likelihood would be that, if the investigation ruled the attack was genuinely and conclusively a terrorist attack by Islamic fundamentalists, that any of these "nukes in the basement" theorists, the "fake buildings" theorists, the "staged crash site" theorists, or any of the other theorists, would ever accept the findings? Here's a question for you- if, by some manner, someone does hold an independent investigation, what do you think the likelihood would be that, if the investigation ruled the attack was genuinely and conclusively a terrorist attack by Islamic fundamentalists, that any of these "nukes in the basement" theorists, the "fake buildings" theorists, the "staged crash site" theorists, or any of the other theorists, would ever accept the findings?

To me personally it makes no difference if the conspiracy theorists accept the outcome of a real investigation. I can only speak for myself and no one else.

I’ve researched 9/11, not so much the attack itself but the before and after, I’ve read books and watched TV footage. Loose Change, or any other conspiracy theory movies did not influence my opinion. I don’t believe the conspiracy theorists, and don’t believe the OS theorists because both sides are nothing but theories. But this horrible day in our history was covered up from top to bottom by the government, and not by bin laden. The investigation wasn’t real, no one beside the innocent people here in America and across the world paid and are still paying for it with life, freedom, and money. I agree with you 100 % that we are wasting our time debating ridiculous theories, while the real terrorists are getting away with a crime of the century.

I don’t know if the government were behind it or not, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they were. I read your posts, and I must admit that you do come across as some kind of government agent spreading disinformation. Our world is falling apart in front of our eyes, and we are debating about things that none of us know because no one actually investigated 9/11. We were told what happened and immediately divided into groups (Truthers, OSers) instead of agreeing that it's a coverup and demanding to know why are they covering it up, and hold them accountable for the coverup at least.
At least you admit that treason is possible, I’ll give you that.
But stop defending the OS so hard, because you know its BS. You can believe the CT or OS, its all the same BS told by different people. People are forced to come up with theories because the OS is an insult to peoples intelligence just like no plane-rs, and lasers from space are an insult to our intelligence. Just like we saw with our own eyes that the airplanes made huge holes in the WTC 's, we saw that WTC 7 looks like it was demolished by something other than what we are told. I don’t know if it was or was not a CD, and that’s why we should have questioned it together as a country. Why is it not possible that it was an inside job?
I mean why can't it be some people that worked in the building that hated the owner, or some traitors from one of the government agencies that had offices in the building, or the owner for insurance payout? I just don't get it.

The idea the they would give sell weapons to drug cartels sound like a conspiracy theory, but we all know and agree that it's true.

My advise to you GoodolDave is, maybe you should just ignore the lasers and no planers. And join the people who just want answers why? How? And who? And don’t tell me that you already know, because unless you know something other than the OS and CT, you don't know why? How? and who? Just like me and the rest of people here.

It's hard for me to belief that you think that the terrorist pulled it of without help on the inside. Don't post things like you post about incompetent bureaucrats, because it has nothing to do with 9/11. we do have a lot of smart people running this country and I think you know that. We vote for them and pay them to work for us, and they turn around and work for somebody else, and they do commit crimes all the time. If it's OK to stay in Iraq, and send our young patriots to their death, and kill innocent people over there even after everybody knows that it was based on BS, and we know about a lot of the terrible things that the government has done in the past, then why is an inside job out of question?

I just don’t get it!

If they are truly so incompetent then why are they still not punished. I think the real players who ever they in fact are very smart, because if they were that stupid, they would get locked up by now.

I personally will accept the outcome of an investigation if was done for the purpose of finding the true terrorists . But 9/11 commission was done for the purpose of shutting up the Jersey Girls .

reply to post by GoodOlDave

The 9/11 attack was the most historically significant event since Pearl Harbor so in my mind it should be investigated left, right, up, and down for future generations, and yet we're treating it as if it's something we should forget.

The thing is that we're not treating it as if it should be forgotten, we are giving away our dignity and liberty, and killing people because the government tells us if we don't 9/11 will happen again. Look at how many people visit this section on ATS. So no, it's not forgotten at all. We are treating it as if it was investigated and we know who was behind it without a doubt. And that is why people like you spend a lot of time posting things like

The question therefore is, are these 9/11 conspiracies simply yet another outlet for people to make up outrageous accusations against the "sinister secret gov't" boogeyman they've come to embrace? It would explain why person A insists "the real truth behind the 9/11 attack" is that it was staged by the gov't while person B insists "the real truth behind the 9/11 attack" is that it was staged by the Jewish World Order. I've even heard the Scientologists insist "the real truth behind the 9/11 attack" is that phychiatrists hypnotized the hijackers to stage the attack, since Scientology's main boogeyman is- SURPRISE- psychiatrists.

and things like this

Probably because it's entirely in your own mind that it's the gov'ts fault. All you need to do is do a 30 second Google search to see that other people insist it's all the fault of Mossad, and those people think you're a fool for wanting to pin the blame on a bunch of drunk streakers and slackers when it was really the work of dancing Israelis. So who should we non-conspiracy theorists believe, them or you?

and you try to insert lasers from space as much as possible into the discussion. Instead you should be talking about the coverup, and maybe if enough people start talking about the coverup, we will find out the real story.
You say you want to learn the truth, but all you talk about is how crazy everyone else is.

How about we stop talking about the lasers from space, and concentrate on why and who is covering it up