Are these 9/11 conspiracies based upon culture rather than fact?

reply to post by maxella1


Very well put. The precedent is certainly there, and it does not take a great leap in imagination to believe that history would again repeat itself like it has so many times before.

Many academics now believe that the Nazis were involved in the arson attack on the Reichstag in 1933, the event that allowed Hitler and his supporters to rise to power in Germany. But, the events seem remarkably similar to something that took place more recently:

1) The Nazis used the attack as evidence that Communists were involved in a plot against the German government, allowing the removal of their main opposition due to their part in a greater conspiracy. (Al Qaeda/Bin Laden blame depite initial denial of involvement, fabrication of evidence etc.).

2) Emergency measures were put into place to withdraw civil liberties and crack down on political dissent within the country. (PATRIOT Act, Dep. of Homeland Security etc. 'Your either with us, or your with the terrorists').

3) The attack gave the Nazis greater political influence and support, and allowed them to consolidate their power by appealing to nationalist sentiment. (Renewed support for Bush administration, free-reign due to draping himself in the flag).

4) A hurried and questionnable investigation placed the blame directly on the Communists, even implicating figures entirely unrelated to the attack. (9/11 Commission and invasion of Iraq).

I could go on. If it ain't broke don't fix it eh?

I have been visiting this site for a while, and I have absolutely nothing new to add to the 9/11 debate .

But isn’t it time to stop acting like our government is so incompetent that they could not have done 9/11 or that so many people had to know about it and its not possible to keep it secret for so long? The United States of America is the most advanced and powerful country in the world and that is because a lot of very smart people are running it.

So I think it is very possible that some not all of the government are very capable to do something like 9/11 in secret with cooperation of a small group of powerful criminals. Just look at the whistle blowers coming out with information about all the weird coincidences and mistakes before 9/11, on 9/11, and after 9/11. but still no one is held accountable.

So my question is how come they are not punished? I don’t think that those people are protected from prosecution without the cooperation of some high level members of the establishment.

reply to post by GoodOlDave

I looked into a few different cultures and I see the same pattern occurring over and over how conspiracies are influenced by culture- over in the UK they think Princess Di was secretly murdered by the royal family to stop her from embarassing them. Over in the mideast they either think Israel has secret agents manipulating everything, or the myriad opposing muslim sects that are behind everything. In Armenia they're blaming Turkey on everything. In India they think Pakistani Muslims are behind everything. I even heard that in Africa they think the Chinese are deliberately mass marketing their weapons to string the war in Darfur along because they want to colonize it. Time and time again, people are consistantly "running back to mama" and blaming some culturally identified boogeyman whenever they have a need to promote some conspiracy idea or another.

Interesting point about boogeymen and one well taken. You see the same thing reflected in the horror flicks of the day-in the height of the cold war nuclear scare it was radioactively mutated creatures. In the 80's it was some faceless ghoul. These days its the psychotic scientist and supernatural themes (as much as I can tell-I haven't watched a horror film in many years.)

However, Princess Di was murdered, in a ritualistic way, much like JFK and I'm sure the royal family was involved in some way. Israel does have secret agents infiltrating many things. And 9/11 didn't happen the way the OS tells it. It's all about subterfuge however. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the crazier claims within whatever issue like this one discusses are encouraged or even started by those that are really behind what is going on to discredit those that get closer to the truth. In some ways we are all disinfo agents at one time or another because, on topics like these, we all get onto our pet "truths" and disseminate them even though they may not be the real Truth of how it went down.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave Rather than some super powerful sinsiter gov't that could bend the laws of reality with near supernatural power, their view is that the gov't is an inherently weak and toothless bunch who are repeatedly being used as puppets by their mega-corporations and it's really the mega-corporations who are the ones staging their conspiracies.

I think its pretty obvious that corporations control the government. Watch "The Corporation", or just look at the laws that benefit corporations in America while smiting the middle class.

But good of you to let us know that know that here in America, all Americans think it is the evil government totally and would have no inkling to realize that the double plus good corporations would ever do anything bad to us.

Excellent, the way you not only 1) stereotype two different cultures 2) lump anyone who doesnt believe the original story as a nut or scam artist 3) attempt deflect attention away from corporations, by insinuating that anyone that believes corporations influence governments are conspiracy nuts. Your propaganda doesnt go unnoticed.

Originally posted by aching_knuckles


I think its pretty obvious that corporations control the government.

Absolutely. I was driving around some bits of America last week and christ what a dump it is. Identikit towns full of tasteless, boxy houses and the same eight or ten chain 'restaurants' and shops.

The chain food places are actually a very good example of this. They've lobbied government so they can produce horrifically bad - in fact dangerous - meat and sell it at low prices, shutting out smaller competition. The interesting thing is that they've enlisted the support of the kind of people who purport to like "freedom" as though they are in some way an expression of the joys of the market. Precisely the kind of people who hate the government find themsleves unwittingly shilling for huge corporations because to not do so would be to somehow deny market capitalism and therefore "freedom".

And how do conspiracy theories fit into this? Mostly they're just a psychological tool whereby the believer doesn't have to do anything about anything because the CT convinces them that everything is beyond repair.

reply to post by TrickoftheShade

Mostly they're just a psychological tool whereby the believer doesn't have to do anything about anything because the CT convinces them that everything is beyond repair.

Again, I think that paralyzing factor is built in intentionally. The NWO has been oft presented as a monolithic force that has been unstoppable over the centuries. There is a certain cynicism that kicks in after trying to do your part to change the system and finding that you are only one very small cog. Unfortunately, I think it's going to take mass outrage over something (like Kony or Trayvon but legitimate. Not to say those issues aren't important, but proportionally to issues that could really set us free.

reply to post by GoodOlDave

You will notice how that differs from the mentality shown here where the belief is held that an all powerful central gov't is staging the conspiracies, not becuase we don't have our own mega-corporations, but because it's the idea of a central gov't which is the boogeyman our culture has been taught to be concerned about, the same way corporations have a much more sinister unfeeling character in Japanese culture. Anyone seeing those videos where auto-workers are instructed to do company sponsored morning exercises will see their corporations have more control over people's lives there than their gov't does..

I disagree. I don't think it is different at all. Very few conspiracy theorists or "truthers" or even "birthers" are concerned with our "actual" government. They are much more concerned with a shadow government, or a small subset of our government officials being steered by outside interests, or an oligarchy of corporations and lobbyists, or even the 13 bloodlines, or Illuminati.

I don't think anyone is too concerned with the regular government. The regular government, just like in Japan, is toothless, bureaucratic, and inept! Believe me, I work in the midst of it! We can't organize snacks for a Friday morning meeting, there is no way we are organizing a 9/11.

I do agree that workers in Japan have far less rights, and far more expectations than in the US, so their fear of corporations might be greater than ours, but I don't think our boogeymen are significantly different.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by GoodOlDave
Very few conspiracy theorists or "truthers" or even "birthers" are concerned with our "actual" government. They are much more concerned with a shadow government..

Exactly. They are worried about an imaginary enemy who is absolutely cunning, ruthless and determined, and lurking behind every bush.

The shadow government, as used in conspiracy theories, is the bogeyman.

Originally posted by DrEugeneFixer

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by GoodOlDave
Very few conspiracy theorists or "truthers" or even "birthers" are concerned with our "actual" government. They are much more concerned with a shadow government..

Exactly. They are worried about an imaginary enemy who is absolutely cunning, ruthless and determined, and lurking behind every bush.

The shadow government, as used in conspiracy theories, is the bogeyman.

Well, please do make note that our current president has openly stated that 'truth teams' were being sent onto the web to kick us poor, misguided conspiracy folks to the curb.

If we exhibit a little distrust after that, who can blame us?

By the way... who signs your paycheck???

The United States of America is the most advanced and powerful country in the world and that is because a lot of very smart people are running it.

reply to post by maxella1


Sigh, even the skeptics have some bizarre need for dick waving.

Wrong, wrong, and very, very wrong.

Originally posted by Morg234

The United States of America is the most advanced and powerful country in the world and that is because a lot of very smart people are running it.

reply to post by maxella1

 

Sigh, even the skeptics have some bizarre need for dick waving.

Wrong, wrong, and very, very wrong.

LOL, Thanks for clarifying, now I understand that I'm wrong.

reply to post by GoodOlDave

Here's Joy Rogan talk about why Americans don’t trust the government.

Im not sure if you are aware, but the whole world question princess di. The whole world questions 9/11. Armenias problems do come from turkey probably, its just armenia is talked about so little that no one questions where their problems come from. I had never thought to question my government. Even after 9/11, my view was no wha it is today. Unfortunately, I happened to get swindled into listenening about 9/11, and felt compelled to continue looking. And after looking, I lack trust in my government. Was it my culture? No. I tell my father every so often things I find regarding 9/11, and each time to disregards what I say, acts as if he had already read it.. When I know he know little about what I mentioned. Yet I still choose to have a different belief than my father, even though I idolized him growing up. So if anything, culture tells me I should believe my fathrs belief. Culture = fail. 9/11 = something other than OS.

If before 9/11 American culture had been so scientifically sophisticated that most people would not believe airliners could do that would the perps have even tried it?

psik

Originally posted by psikeyhackr
If before 9/11 American culture had been so scientifically sophisticated that most people would not believe airliners could do that would the perps have even tried it?

psik

Actually, Americans are sufficiently scientifically sophisticated to know the evidence of their eyes versus what some internet pilot dictates is and is not possible based on his washer and copy paper loops model.

Originally posted by maxella1
I have been visiting this site for a while, and I have absolutely nothing new to add to the 9/11 debate .

But isn’t it time to stop acting like our government is so incompetent that they could not have done 9/11 or that so many people had to know about it and its not possible to keep it secret for so long? The United States of America is the most advanced and powerful country in the world and that is because a lot of very smart people are running it.

Really? Like who? I used to work in the public sector and still have friends (and a few relatives) who are public employees, and I can tell you with complete certainty that people go into the public sector because they're dead weight and wouldn't be able to survive in the private sector.

I know one guy who works for a major university, and there was one custodian there who was such a hardcore drunk that he ran across the campus grounds naked, and the university administration figured that after all the union hearings, arbitrations, reviews, and other union procedures were followed it would take them TWO YEARS to fire the guy. So, they simply transferred him to another university so he'd be someone else's problem. My friend's own boss was a complete and utter incompetent boob who did absolutely nothing but delegate all work to my friend, and everyone has to put up with this because they're unionized and his boss has seniority.

...and these characters are supposedly the ones who were able to successfully sneak into an occupied building and plant invisible explosives with the sheer perfection of coordination and coverup that rivals a supernatural act. Pull my other leg, why don't you.

So my question is how come they are not punished? I don’t think that those people are protected from prosecution without the cooperation of some high level members of the establishment.

Probably because it's entirely in your own mind that it's the gov'ts fault. All you need to do is do a 30 second Google search to see that other people insist it's all the fault of Mossad, and those people think you're a fool for wanting to pin the blame on a bunch of drunk streakers and slackers when it was really the work of dancing Israelis. So who should we non-conspiracy theorists believe, them or you?

Originally posted by hooper
Actually, Americans are sufficiently scientifically sophisticated to know the evidence of their eyes versus what some internet pilot dictates is and is not possible based on his washer and copy paper loops model.

Or, it's the case that most other attempts at explaining how the towers fell were concise, articulate and the authors explained how they arrived at their findings pretty well, and they didn't force people to become physics experts to understand why the heck watching a video of someone hitting a cardboard ladder with a rock on a string to demonstrate how far it swayed had anything to do with anything.

This whole bit is junk science, plain and simple.

reply to post by GoodOlDave


First I must apologize for misspelling Joe Rogans name in the video above. Sorry Joe!


I don’t know why you think that I was talking about your friends boss at some university, so if you don’t mind explaining how my statement that I think this country has some very smart people running it has anything to do with your friends boss, I would appreciate it. Is he somehow running this country?

Are you saying that the CIA employees are people who would not make it in the private sector? And it is easier to get a job with CIA than in a private sector?

Is it also possible that the same terrorists that you give so much credit to, and obviously think that they are a lot smarter than all the people running this country, and who were able to do 9/11 without any help from anyone in the US government were able to successfully sneak into an occupied building and plant “invisible explosives”?

And people like Larry Silverstein is too stupid to be some how involved in providing cover while the “invisible explosives” were being put in place? Like for example allowing people disguised as some maintenance crews go in and out of the building? If the terrorists were able to do 9/11, why would it be impossible for them to plant explosives?

Is it only in my head that Clinton administration and Bush administration had multiple warnings about an attack inside this country, but didn’t do anything about it? Is it only in my head that the CIA had enough information to at least try to stop 9/11, but did nothing about it? Is it also only in my head that the government really messed up on 9/11 but no one is held responsible? Is it also only in my head that Philip Zelikow who was the executive director of the 9/11 Commission, also is a good friend of Condoleezza Rice, and previously worked on the Bush transition team, which recommended candidates for Cabinet positions and other top national security appointments, and actually got a new job as Counselor to Secretary of State Rice after the 9/11 Commission ended?

And it must be only in my crazy paranoid head that 9/11 was successfully covered up by the government and not by Osama Bin Laden. I'm just a nut job conspiracy theorist right GoodOlDave ?

Dave, if I own an apartment complex, and you pay rent or tax, to me, and with that stipend, im supposed to make sure no birds every come on the property, and especially to keep birds from crapping on your car. And today I see a flock of birds heading our way. And tomorrow morning, a bird craps on your car, and I sit back and watch the next 3 birds crap on your car,..... Whos at fault? You specifically pay me to protect your car and property that you rent from me, from bird crap. So, I am at fault. Just like, regardless of "who" orchestrated 9/11, the u.s. Government was at fault. They were negligent. We paid them to protect us. They saw it coming days before. They saw it coming after the 1st crash. They failed. Someone should have been arrested and exiled for their failure. No one did. Being the most powerful, and "free" nation means you punish those who didnt do their jobs. They failed. and you know it. Now why dont you go back to working for the "public sector". Or think real hard about another ridiculous idea for why people think something else happened besides complete and utter negligence.

reply to post by GoodOlDave

...and these characters are supposedly the ones who were able to successfully sneak into an occupied building and plant invisible explosives with the sheer perfection of coordination and coverup that rivals a supernatural act. Pull my other leg, why don't you.

Probably because it's entirely in your own mind that it's the gov'ts fault. All you need to do is do a 30 second Google search to see that other people insist it's all the fault of Mossad,

See, I think that's exactly the type of thinking that those that did it wish to encourage because it obfuscates the whole thing.

If by "these characters" you mean incompetent government employees, which we all know exist then you are just throwing that in to obfuscate. You and I and anyone else who can think know that "they" wouldn't send in some incompetent govt. employee, they would send in highly trained and skilled black ops agents whose business, whether in this country or another, is to get in and out unseen.

As to the question of who "they" are, again something thrown in to confuse the issue. I've heard "GWB is such an idiot, there's no way he could have pulled it off" and dismiss the inside job argument right there. But then, it's a naive assumption to think that the President is anymore than just a puppet, especially that one. What does one mean by "government?" Do they mean elected officials or the shadow government/PTB/Illuminati that really call the shots? (what one calls them is really immaterial and opens the door for more obfuscation-the fact is "they" exist, whatever you want to call them. That being said, it is known that this "shadow government" uses elements within the intelligence community (CIA, Mossad, etc) to accomplish their goals. When looked at from this perspective, why does saying "the government did it" and saying "Mossad did it" have to be mutually exclusive?

Also, when looked at from that perspective, who benefited from 9/11? Arabs in the Middle East? Nope, their countries are full of depleted uranium now and civilians are killed daily. The Military-Industrial complex like the Carlyle group (which Poppy Bush has a big stake in) after a decade of perpetual war? Absolutely. The controllers/PTB/Illuminati who gained sweeping new powers while we quickly lost our rights under the Patriot Act? Again, absolutely. The government did do it, just not the government you are trying to distract us with.