Why has modern doghma overruled Scripture?

A Question for those who believe the Bible (atheists and agnostics, pagans, wiccans, etc, feel free).

Why in modern times (especially when factoring the dogmatic nature of the Catholic church) have we, as christian sects and beliefs, gotten to a point where many of the denominations have placed sect specific rules and regulations (think Rosary, Hail Mary's, etc) above teachings of the Bible. The early church did not adhere to dogmatic principles of regulation over pure interaction and fellowship with God, and each other. True, there are principles and outlines of behavior in the Bible (mostly outlined by the apostle Paul in his letters) in order to facilitate orderly structure during gatherings for purpose of exhortatian, teaching and encouragement. However, in modern times, there has been an effort, it seems, to place Church authority over Biblical authority. This , in my opinion, is the main reason so many people are turned off by Christianity. Interpretation of the basic fundamental of Scripture seems universal throughout the denominations (catholicism, and a few minor sects are exceptions), however so many denominations spring up because of interpretation and expounding on the structure set forward in Scripture. Why do men attempt to improve on a system that was designed perfect by God?

Your thoughts?
Or not. Either way. Been bugging me.

[edit on 24-9-2004 by everlastingnoitall]

Man can't help himself. He always has to do things his own way instead of Gods. Being a christian and worshipping God has nothing to do with what rituals we perform. It comes from the heart. God wants us to come to Him as a child comes to their father.

"And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words." Mathew6:7

Consider the following from The Urantia Book:

CHRISTIANITY'S PROBLEM

"Do not overlook the value of your spiritual heritage, the river of truth running down through the centuries, even to the barren times of a materialistic and secular age. In all your worthy efforts to rid yourselves of the superstitious creeds of past ages, make sure that you hold fast the eternal truth. But be patient! when the present superstition revolt is over, the truths of Jesus' gospel will persist gloriously to illuminate a new and better way.

"But paganized and socialized Christianity stands in need of new contact with the uncompromised teachings of Jesus; it languishes for lack of a new vision of the Master's life on earth. A new and fuller revelation of the religion of Jesus is destined to conquer an empire of materialistic secularism and to overthrow a world sway of mechanistic naturalism. Urantia is now quivering on the very brink of one of its most amazing and enthralling epochs of social readjustment, moral quickening, and spiritual enlightenment.

"The teachings of Jesus, even though greatly modified, survived the mystery cults of their birthtime, the ignorance and superstition of the dark ages, and are even now slowly triumphing over the materialism, mechanism, and secularism of the twentieth century. And such times of great testing and threatened defeat are always times of great revelation.

"Religion does need new leaders, spiritual men and women who will dare to depend solely on Jesus and his incomparable teachings. If Christianity persists in neglecting its spiritual mission while it continues to busy itself with social and material problems, the spiritual renaissance must await the coming of these new teachers of Jesus' religion who will be exclusively devoted to the spiritual regeneration of men. And then will these spirit-born souls quickly supply the leadership and inspiration requisite for the social, moral, economic, and political reorganization of the world.

"The modern age will refuse to accept a religion which is inconsistent with facts and out of harmony with its highest conceptions of truth, beauty, and goodness. The hour is striking for a rediscovery of the true and original foundations of present-day distorted and compromised Christianity--the real life and teachings of Jesus.

"Primitive man lived a life of superstitious bondage to religious fear. Modern, civilized men dread the thought of falling under the dominance of strong religious convictions. Thinking man has always feared to be held by a religion. When a strong and moving religion threatens to dominate him, he invariably tries to rationalize, traditionalize, and institutionalize it, thereby hoping to gain control of it. By such procedure, even a revealed religion becomes man-made and man-dominated. Modern men and women of intelligence evade the religion of Jesus because of their fears of what it will do to them--and with them. And all such fears are well founded. The religion of Jesus does, indeed, dominate and transform its believers, demanding that men dedicate their lives to seeking for a knowledge of the will of the Father in heaven and requiring that the energies of living be consecrated to the unselfish service of the brotherhood of man.

"Selfish men and women simply will not pay such a price for even the greatest spiritual treasure ever offered mortal man. Only when man has become sufficiently disillusioned by the sorrowful disappointments attendant upon the foolish and deceptive pursuits of selfishness, and subsequent to the discovery of the barrenness of formalized religion, will he be disposed to turn wholeheartedly to the gospel of the kingdom, the religion of Jesus of Nazareth.

"The world needs more firsthand religion. Even Christianity--the best of the religions of the twentieth century--is not only a religion about Jesus, but it is so largely one which men experience secondhand. They take their religion wholly as handed down by their accepted religious teachers. What an awakening the world would experience if it could only see Jesus as he really lived on earth and know, firsthand, his life-giving teachings! Descriptive words of things beautiful cannot thrill like the sight thereof, neither can creedal words inspire men's souls like the experience of knowing the presence of God. But expectant faith will ever keep the hope-door of man's soul open for the entrance of the eternal spiritual realities of the divine values of the worlds beyond.

"Christianity has dared to lower its ideals before the challenge of human greed, war-madness, and the lust for power; but the religion of Jesus stands as the unsullied and transcendent spiritual summons, calling to the best there is in man to rise above all these legacies of animal evolution and, by grace, attain the moral heights of true human destiny.

"Christianity is threatened by slow death from formalism, overorganization, intellectualism, and other nonspiritual trends. The modern Christian church is not such a brotherhood of dynamic believers as Jesus commissioned continuously to effect the spiritual transformation of successive generations of mankind.

"So-called Christianity has become a social and cultural movement as well as a religious belief and practice. The stream of modern Christianity drains many an ancient pagan swamp and many a barbarian morass; many olden cultural watersheds drain into this present-day cultural stream as well as the high Galilean tablelands which are supposed to be its exclusive source."

Paper 195

Paper 196


[edit on 04/9/24 by GradyPhilpott]

Yes we need to forget the teachings of man. Just to sit at the feet of the greatest teacher the world has known, Jesus. It is ashame that the many choose to ignore Him. If I was to try to yell and scream at a bunch of ants they will not hear me, the only way to show them the right way to live is to become an ant. And this is what God has done. We are those ants and Jesus was God. His glory hidden by a covering of flesh.

"And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ."
Mathew 23:10

Well, I for one, do in fact attend church, although my Christian walk did not begin in a church. As far as trying to see the true Scripture, I have said in another thread that for accuracy, I don't think the NIV can be beat. It has the best modern translation of the most authoritative manuscripts thusfar.

In an effort to better understand the Bible and its origins, I am shortly to begin studying the languages of the Bible in order to read the ancient manuscripts for myself. maybe in a few years I will be able to tell you all just how flawed, if at all, the modern English translation of the Bible (NIV) really is.

I believe (and this will sound like a majorly wacked-out-nut-job-conspiracy-lunatic) that this is taking place in order to ease the transition to an established one-world religion.

I used to go to church until the insistance of "church doctrine" took precedence over scripture. It took me awhile to realize that there IS a difference between being religious and being spiritual.

I'm spiritual, but I'm following my own path. A church or system will not tell me what I will believe. I take that back - they can tell me, but I won't listen, ROFLOL!

Jesus said many would come in His name saying "I am Christ"(in other words this is the way of salvation). You mentioned the catholic church so I will too. It does not truly teach salvation, it is based on works not Jesus Christ and what He has done. It is a false religion. Do not consider it true christianity.

thats right, it doesn't matter how good we try to be, we cannot earn our way to heaven. Jesus has done all the work for us. But this is not a ticket to keep doing bad stuff. If we love the Lord and are truly saved good works will be a consequence of our salvation. Not good works and then salvation.

Originally posted by rosebeforetime
thats right, it doesn't matter how good we try to be, we cannot earn our way to heaven. Jesus has done all the work for us. But this is not a ticket to keep doing bad stuff. If we love the Lord and are truly saved good works will be a consequence of our salvation. Not good works and then salvation.

We do good works because we are saved, not to be saved. Salvation is a gift. A gift is given. If it involves something we do it is no longer a gift.

I was raised in the United Pentecostal Church (one reason I embraced atheism for quite a while. They believe you have to go through a certain process to be saved. You must first repent ( a given), be baptized, but only in the name of Jesus Christ, then you must have the baptism in the Holy Spirit with evidence of other tongues. Very, Very dogmatic. Turned me off to God and religion big time. They don't believe the trinitarian doctrine, and base their whole belief system on Acts 2:38, which brings me back to the whole 'modern dogma overruling the whole of Scripture'

Originally posted by everlastingnoitall
Why in modern times (especially when factoring the dogmatic nature of the Catholic church) have we, as christian sects and beliefs, gotten to a point where many of the denominations have placed sect specific rules and regulations (think Rosary, Hail Mary's, etc) above teachings of the Bible. The early church did not adhere to dogmatic principles of regulation over pure interaction and fellowship with God, and each other.

I think you're making some bad assumptions here, and one of them is that the current fundamentalist Protestantism is the way that the original Christians worshipped.

They'd be horrified at the insistance that Jesus is God, for instance. The doctrine of the trinity comes late to the religion (after 400 AD) and would have seemed blasphemous to them.

They may not have used the Torah at all in their worship (Old Testament.)

The Bible books would have conflicted with some of their scriptural material and stories about Jesus (there are quite a few early Christian books and a bunch of them were left out of the Bible. ) You may have found more Essene material included.

The Book of Revelation would not have been used.

Furthermore, the people were illiterate. The purpose of symbols (as the Catholic Church uses) and rituals is to help the illiterate learn the basic principles of the religion. This ensures that the message is transmitted unchanged in tone and content.

Now that you're literate, you feel free to rewrite and reinterpret the Bible (this was one of the benefits of having it in Latin... it was hard to MISinterpret.)

If you want to get closer to the old ways; the ways of the apostles, you will have to go back to the churches that preserve the earliest traditions... and I think you'll find those are Catholic.




(not that I care, myself. I'm Wiccan. But the New Insistance that the Catholics Got It All Wrong From The Start And For Thousands Of Years is just plain silly.)

Originally posted by everlastingnoitall
A Question for those who believe the Bible (atheists and agnostics, pagans, wiccans, etc, feel free).

Why in modern times (especially when factoring the dogmatic nature of the Catholic church) have we, as christian sects and beliefs, gotten to a point where many of the denominations have placed sect specific rules and regulations (think Rosary, Hail Mary's, etc) above teachings of the Bible. The early church did not adhere to dogmatic principles of regulation over pure interaction and fellowship with God, and each other. True, there are principles and outlines of behavior in the Bible (mostly outlined by the apostle Paul in his letters) in order to facilitate orderly structure during gatherings for purpose of exhortatian, teaching and encouragement. However, in modern times, there has been an effort, it seems, to place Church authority over Biblical authority. This , in my opinion, is the main reason so many people are turned off by Christianity. Interpretation of the basic fundamental of Scripture seems universal throughout the denominations (catholicism, and a few minor sects are exceptions), however so many denominations spring up because of interpretation and expounding on the structure set forward in Scripture. Why do men attempt to improve on a system that was designed perfect by God?

Your thoughts?
Or not. Either way. Been bugging me.

[edit on 24-9-2004 by everlastingnoitall]

My faith is based entirely on my absolute trust that the Bible is the Word of God. I know very little about my faith because I am a very poor Bible scholar. However, I can offer these thoughts:

A disturbing percentage of Christians today do not share my trust in the Bible, therefore they are forced to seek out alternative and often humanistic affirmations of their faith. I believe completely that this state of affairs is the result of the subtle work of satan as he:

a: deceives people through the horror that is evolutionary theory;
b: deceives people by portraying himself as a cartoon figure thereby suggesting to many people that he doesn't actually exist therefore there is really no 'good vs. evil';
c. encourages the lie that 'all roads lead to god - it doesn't matter what you have faith in, just that you have faith';
d. keeps people's minds utterly empty and utterly occupied by the endless streams of mindless entertainment beaming into our homes and lives - even the news programs are now more entertainment than anything else;
e. constantly leads people to overlook and ignore feelings of personal guilt by twisting the truth until we all blame God for the state of the world rather than blaming ourselves for turning our backs on God.

All these points add up to a western Christianity that is far too ashamed of it's Root [Christ and His teachings] to stand up for them anymore. Many people still have a genuine faith, but they are so secular in their outlook that acknowledging Christ as the ultimate authority in their life is almost unthinkable. So the authority passes from the perfect to the imperfect, and error rampages in.

Catholicism's base error is to place ultimate power in the hands of imperfect man rather than in the hands of Christ. Catholic tradition is a grim mix of idolism, unscriptual theology, bad management and in some cases intentional deception. Please read 'A Woman Rides the Beast' by Dave Hunt for an eye-opening look at catholicism. However, I firmly believe that many catholics are also Christians with a genuine faith in Christ, and sadly many Protestant traditions are as empty as Catholic ones.

So - church authority has replaced Biblical authority through the subtle work of satan and the willingness of humanity to turn from simple truths to a multitude of increasingly complex mix of humanistic theologies. The Bible is far to simple. Christ's teachings were aimed at children. Salvation through faith rather than works is obviously just a sweet picture painted in the minds of the fool. Science has apparently disproved part of the Bible, so the rest of it is obviously irrelevant as well....

Christendom no longer believes that God is Who the Bible says He is. Therefore Christainity has found it necesary to rebuild it's faith... and the solid, unshakeable foundation has been replaced by sand.

Wow, that is so true. But I don't agree that science has disproved the bible, it is just the way you look at the evidence. There are many scientists who believe that the bible is the word of God from start to finish. Wernher von Braun, the man behind th Apollo moon mission is a creation scientist who believes the bible.

I believe (and this will sound like a majorly wacked-out-nut-job-conspiracy-lunatic) that this is taking place in order to ease the transition to an established one-world religion

I don't see anything wrong with your above statement, I believe this
has been mentioned before.....as soon as I can find some links I will
send/post them

Originally posted by rosebeforetime
Wow, that is so true. But I don't agree that science has disproved the bible....

Glad to hear it!

Far too many Christians have been deceived into thinking that science provides nothing but the truth and that this 'truth' has proved the Bible to be a bit of an intellectual embarrasment.

Two points:

1. God wasn't writing a science textbook when He inspired the Bible authors. It is illogical to expect clear scientific explanations for everything the Bible says.

2. Everything that the Bible does say that is vaguely scientific will, if properly interpreted/understood/placed in context is 100% accurate.

As you said, many scientists have either become scientists after becoming Christians, or perhaps more interesting, vice versa:

xastanford.org...

The simple truth is that sadly many scientists are unscientific in their methods. They start out with their answer (in many cases, there is no God) and gather, analyse and report data in a manner consistent with their conclusion...

Yet another reason why modern dogma has overridden (can't say overruled 'cos it hasn't!) Scripture.