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Everyone DOES understand why there can't be an Armed Population?

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posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 04:15 PM
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Originally posted by imherejusttoread

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
The whole culture of guns being acceptable needs to change, its no longer the wild west, you no longer need to protect yourself from Indians and cattle rustlers.

Step into the 21st century guys


The ignorance expressed in this post is unbearable.

Starting with perpetuating statist memes.

There's nothing 21st century about going back 21 centuries. If the freedom of individuals to commerce as they please without looking for permission from the tribe frightens you then i'm sure there are services that provide cushioned rooms with no windows and pictures of rainbows and bunnies carefully tacked on the ceiling so as not to offend your overly-sensitized psychologism concerning the physics of the natural world.


I have absolutely no idea what your trying to say




posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 04:15 PM
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Originally posted by Magnum007
reply to post by optimus primal
 


you are exactly right! therefore until they are asked to join this function, they do not have the right to bear arms, they are to bear arms the second they join the militia, or the army, or serve in times of emergency...

until then, they are NOT a WELL REGULATED MILITIA, they are but citizens... just like you need to enlist and train to become a soldier, you need to do the same to be part of a militia... you are not in by default when you turn 18...


So, the term "the people" doesn't mean "the people"? Which other Amendments apply with your logic?

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


So, if " the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" doesn't really mean "the people", then obviously the 1st Amendment is only for "the press", right?

Edited to add: And, since the 2nd, comes before the 4th, et-al, then obviously "the people" means "the militia" in those later Amendments as well, and therefore the 4th, 9th and 10th Amendments only apply to people serving in "the militia". Has to be that way.
edit on 5-4-2012 by navy_vet_stg3 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 04:25 PM
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Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff

In every country criminals have access to guns easy enough yet no where else in the world do gun deaths come anywhere near the total that they do in the US.


That is so incorrect.

There were literally hundreds of thousands of gun related deaths in Iraq in the last 10 years.
Same in Afghanistan.

There were thousands of gun deaths in the revolutions throughout the Muslim world this last year.

There were millions of deaths throughout African nations off and on throughout the last few decades.

We could go on and on. The USA may have some gun violence but it's no where near as widespread and horrific as places like Liberia have been recently.

How could the USA be more dangerous than a place like Liberia or Somalia?
edit on 5-4-2012 by muzzleflash because: (no reason given)

edit on 5-4-2012 by muzzleflash because: (no reason given)


LMAO

I assume this is a joke but you can never be sure so Ill address it.

Iraq and Afghanistan, hmmmm let me think...... Im pretty sure something been happening over that way for the past decade or so, Just let me check google............................................................................................... ...................................................................................................................................................... ...................................................................................................................................................... .......................

Holy crap says here there was a war on!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hang on Ill find out what it was about.......................................
...................................................................................................................................................... ...........

Well wouldnt ya know it, apparently America invaded because some guy who lived in a cave outsmarted your intelligence service and the other place had some dangerous weapons that if left unchecked would have killed everyone. Good thing they sorted that out


True that Africa and parts of the Middle East are in the midst of civil wars but still not as many gun deaths as the US. You guys average like 40 a day and thats in peacetime.

Thanks for the laugh dude


Scarily I bet the people who starred you didnt see the Irony in what you said *sigh*



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 04:37 PM
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reply to post by IkNOwSTuff
 


this is a reply to both this current post and the original post linked to in your reply to muzzleflash.

here is a list of the countries with the highest firearms deaths per 100,000 population:

South Africa - 74.57
Colombia - 51.77
El Salvador - 50.36
Jamaica - 47.44
Honduras - 46.70
Guatemala - 38.52
Swaziland - 37.16
Thailand - 33.00
Brazil - 14.15
Estonia - 12.74
Panama - 12.92
Mexico - 12.07
United States - 10.27
wiki, with supporting links included, i recommend reading some of them as they are interesting.

as you can see the US isn't even in the top ten. as well, fifty percent of those firearm deaths in the US per 100,000 per year are suicides. clearly, you don't know what your talking about.



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 04:43 PM
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Originally posted by dalan.
reply to post by IkNOwSTuff
 


The member abecedarian refuted your post with actual facts. Murder rates are higher in Countries with strict gun control.

You have yet to refute that member.

Americans are killed by lone gunmen because Americans refuse to arm themselves. That recent college campus shooting would not have happened if both faculty and students alike carried firearms.

I am a college student. If I am ever on campus when someone decides to start shooting up the school, I will have no means to defend myself because I do not carry a gun. Even if I did, I would not be allowed to carry it on campus.

I do not care about what you think, I have every right to defend myself. Every human being on this planet has the right to defend themselves, but we have been convinced that if a person even attempts to they are some sort of criminal.

That's absurd. People train in martial arts for the same reasons that they train with, and carry firearms, but I have never once heard of legislation to ban martial arts.

Honestly though, if guns were wiped off the face of the Earth, I would just begin carrying a sword instead.


LMFAO

I didnt refute that member because it wasnt worth refuting, the only country on that list with a higher murder rate was Russia with a whopping 20 per 100k, the next was about 2, the USA has around 5.5 and Russias arent gun deaths which is what we are discussing. But if you wanna talk murder rates the only country that could even be remotely called civilised thats higher on the list than you guys is Russia your ranked about 18th in the world, Go USA


I dont even know what to say to the rest of your post


Some of these people who have gone on rampages have been approved for gun licenses, anyone can flip and having a gun handy isnt great when that happens.
Since were on the topic of Rampages, they seem to happen quite alot yet very rarely outside of the USA??
I wonder why that is? Maybe and just maybe it has something to do with the fact that guns are everywhere.

Not gonna bother with the martial arts comment coz its just stupid.

Likewise I dont care about your opinion you and all the other gun lovers can keep em, with your last comment you kinda confirmed what Ive always thought. Its got nothing to do with protection its more about feeling like a bigger man or being to piss weak and scared to actually defend yourself if necessary.
"If all guns were wiped off the face of the Earth Id still carry a sword" dude your a lost case and I wont be responding to you if you reply to this



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 04:46 PM
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Originally posted by Vortiki
reply to post by IkNOwSTuff
 


Yeah, well let's all say, for argument's sake, you're a criminal with a firearm. Are you going to be more likely, or less likely, to rob someone if you KNEW they had a firearm too? My money is you're going to be less likely.

Solution:

Arm EVERYONE. Sure you may see a spike in crime for the first month or so, but I'd almost put money on the fact that after the novelty wares off, the amount of crime will have plummeted.

"An armed society is a polite society"
- Robert A. Heinlein
edit on 5-4-2012 by Vortiki because: Typo


The really scary thing about this is I think your serious.

Once again countries like Australia and England which are pretty much culturally identical get by just fine without citizens carrying guns



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 04:47 PM
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reply to post by IkNOwSTuff
 


and yet, there are 12 other countries with higher firearms deaths than the US. again you clearly don't know what you're talking about.



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 04:51 PM
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Originally posted by optimus primal
reply to post by IkNOwSTuff
 


this is a reply to both this current post and the original post linked to in your reply to muzzleflash.

here is a list of the countries with the highest firearms deaths per 100,000 population:

South Africa - 74.57
Colombia - 51.77
El Salvador - 50.36
Jamaica - 47.44
Honduras - 46.70
Guatemala - 38.52
Swaziland - 37.16
Thailand - 33.00
Brazil - 14.15
Estonia - 12.74
Panama - 12.92
Mexico - 12.07
United States - 10.27
wiki, with supporting links included, i recommend reading some of them as they are interesting.

as you can see the US isn't even in the top ten. as well, fifty percent of those firearm deaths in the US per 100,000 per year are suicides. clearly, you don't know what your talking about.


Look at the countries that are higher than you, Estonia, Brazil, Thailand. the US is meant to be a civilised country for fecks sake!!!!!!!!!!!! None of those other places really deserve that title.

And total gun deaths not per capita but total, you guys are still winning by a mile



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 04:52 PM
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Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
True that Africa and parts of the Middle East are in the midst of civil wars but still not as many gun deaths as the US. You guys average like 40 a day and thats in peacetime.

Thanks for the laugh dude


Scarily I bet the people who starred you didnt see the Irony in what you said *sigh*


Sorry man, but you're smoking crack... So what you're saying is that the US is the murder capitol of the world. last I checked, we were quite a ways down the list. If you look at per-capita statistics, there's actually quite a bit less violence in the US than many other countries with much stricter gun control measures.

Look at just one, single country in Africa for example. Do you remember, or were you ever even aware of what took place in Rawanda in 1994? Over 800,000, that's eight-hundred thousand people were murdered. In a single year. I'll concede that many of them were not gun related, a large number of women were simply raped until they went cold, children were hacked to pieces with machetes, and I'm sure there were plenty of bare handed murders. Still, an astounding number of people were killed by bullets. It seemed to be the most practical method of genocide in most scenarios...

Impossible I know, but do you really think this event would happen if we could go back in time and put a gun in the hand of every Rawandan over the age of 18 before the death squads came to their villages? Not hardly.

Not to mention, if it were not for American gun rights, we might all be speaking Japanese by now. Were it not for the fear of "a rifle behind every blade of grass", World War II may have ended in a very different way.

Every American who's intent on living by the law of the land, would give up their arms if asked to do so. The problem is that not every American is intent on living by the law, and they are the ones our guns are to protect us from. It seems repeated to the point of cliche, but if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns is the most common of all sense.

How many NON-CRIME related gun deaths occur in the US every year? A hand full at most. I don't even think anyone's counting. I'll tell you one thing, the number is lower than the deaths caused by Childrens Tylenol.

The fact remains, and cannot be argued away, that if you listed each and every gun related death in the country, the per-capita rate for violent gun crimes is on par with, even lower in some cases, countries with complete bans on firearms. Sure, there are going to be accidental deaths related to firearms. Just like there's accidental deaths related to automobiles, prescription medicine and even dietary fads.

# happens, people die. Taking away a persons right to protect themselves, their family and property, doesn't make that person less likely to be killed by a gun. It just means when someone with a gun and nefarious intentions assaults this person, they are defenseless.

Gun control is not crime control. Go buy a gun. Learn how to use it. Get comfortable with it. Get a permit. Keep your family safe from the thugs who don't care if there's a gun ban or not. Or, sit around and hope nothing bad ever happens.
edit on 4/5/2012 by Unit541 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 04:53 PM
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Originally posted by DocHolidaze


ive said this before and im sure many others have said this as well, ever since the dawn of time when we used rocks and bones for tools has man killed his fellow man, how is any kind of gun law going to change that truth?
edit on 5-4-2012 by DocHolidaze because: (no reason given)

edit on 5-4-2012 by DocHolidaze because: (no reason given)


Well its a lot harder to kill 30 people in 10 min with rocks and bones



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 04:54 PM
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reply to post by IkNOwSTuff
 


That "per 100,000" thing means per capita.

I like how this list is always cast off because all those "poor" countries full of brown people dont count.

It's worth noting that those countries also have some of the most strict gun laws in the world. More strict than Canada or the UK in some cases.



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 04:55 PM
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I'm leery of gun bans. Usually they are followed by genocide.

jpfo.org...

Government | Dates | Civilians Killed
Ottoman Turkey 1915-1917 1-1.5 million
Soviet Union 1929-1945 20 million
Nazi Germany & Occupied Europe 1933-1945 20 million
China, Nationalist 1927-1949 10 million



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 04:55 PM
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Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff

Originally posted by dalan.
reply to post by IkNOwSTuff
 


The member abecedarian refuted your post with actual facts. Murder rates are higher in Countries with strict gun control.

You have yet to refute that member.

Americans are killed by lone gunmen because Americans refuse to arm themselves. That recent college campus shooting would not have happened if both faculty and students alike carried firearms.

I am a college student. If I am ever on campus when someone decides to start shooting up the school, I will have no means to defend myself because I do not carry a gun. Even if I did, I would not be allowed to carry it on campus.

I do not care about what you think, I have every right to defend myself. Every human being on this planet has the right to defend themselves, but we have been convinced that if a person even attempts to they are some sort of criminal.

That's absurd. People train in martial arts for the same reasons that they train with, and carry firearms, but I have never once heard of legislation to ban martial arts.

Honestly though, if guns were wiped off the face of the Earth, I would just begin carrying a sword instead.


LMFAO

I didnt refute that member because it wasnt worth refuting, the only country on that list with a higher murder rate was Russia with a whopping 20 per 100k, the next was about 2, the USA has around 5.5 and Russias arent gun deaths which is what we are discussing. But if you wanna talk murder rates the only country that could even be remotely called civilised thats higher on the list than you guys is Russia your ranked about 18th in the world, Go USA


I dont even know what to say to the rest of your post


Some of these people who have gone on rampages have been approved for gun licenses, anyone can flip and having a gun handy isnt great when that happens.
Since were on the topic of Rampages, they seem to happen quite alot yet very rarely outside of the USA??
I wonder why that is? Maybe and just maybe it has something to do with the fact that guns are everywhere.

Not gonna bother with the martial arts comment coz its just stupid.

Likewise I dont care about your opinion you and all the other gun lovers can keep em, with your last comment you kinda confirmed what Ive always thought. Its got nothing to do with protection its more about feeling like a bigger man or being to piss weak and scared to actually defend yourself if necessary.
"If all guns were wiped off the face of the Earth Id still carry a sword" dude your a lost case and I wont be responding to you if you reply to this



do murders still happen in those countries with anti gun laws? if so why r u even debating here, gun laws wont stop murder so good luck with your meaningless crusade



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 04:55 PM
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Originally posted by optimus primal
reply to post by IkNOwSTuff
 


this is a reply to both this current post and the original post linked to in your reply to muzzleflash.

here is a list of the countries with the highest firearms deaths per 100,000 population:

South Africa - 74.57
Colombia - 51.77
El Salvador - 50.36
Jamaica - 47.44
Honduras - 46.70
Guatemala - 38.52
Swaziland - 37.16
Thailand - 33.00
Brazil - 14.15
Estonia - 12.74
Panama - 12.92
Mexico - 12.07
United States - 10.27
wiki, with supporting links included, i recommend reading some of them as they are interesting.

as you can see the US isn't even in the top ten. as well, fifty percent of those firearm deaths in the US per 100,000 per year are suicides. clearly, you don't know what your talking about.


Sorry I had to quote this so the people filled with fear will give it a second look and wake up. It's easy to say we shouldn't have guns when you are brainwashed by TV and other people with agendas but facts will always tell the truth.

I also want to point out I live in a bad neighborhood where almost everyone has at the very least a semi auto pistol due to high crime rates. If I gave up my firearm I would eventually be a victim. Also, even with guns outlawed all the criminals would still have them and the citizens who gave up their firearms would be an easy target because they feel "guns are bad", No its the people that's bad OP, not firearms



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 04:56 PM
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Look at the countries that are higher than you, Estonia, Brazil, Thailand. the US is meant to be a civilised country for fecks sake!!!!!!!!!!!! None of those other places really deserve that title.

And total gun deaths not per capita but total, you guys are still winning by a mile


"civilised"? brazil isn't civilized? i'm sure they'd be shocked to hear that.

as for per total, what do you mean? since firearms were invented? since the creation of any of the countries in the statistics? per capita is what is relevant, because it equalizes the number via a smaller sample rather than total population, if you did it as total population it would skew the numbers. per 100,000 rather than trying to normalize the data between a country with 300,000,000 people versus one with 30,000,000. clearly you don't know how statistics works or much about what you're talking about in this thread. please educate yourself.



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 04:58 PM
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Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff

Originally posted by DocHolidaze


ive said this before and im sure many others have said this as well, ever since the dawn of time when we used rocks and bones for tools has man killed his fellow man, how is any kind of gun law going to change that truth?
edit on 5-4-2012 by DocHolidaze because: (no reason given)

edit on 5-4-2012 by DocHolidaze because: (no reason given)


Well its a lot harder to kill 30 people in 10 min with rocks and bones


not by someone that has the will and intent to kill 30 people in 10 min



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 05:01 PM
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There are over 300 million guns in the US with over 280 million guns that have never killed anyone

whats more the law abiding citizen hasn't killed anyone which breaks down like this.

Government kills more than the citizen
Criminals kill more than the citizen just to take a life.
Cops in the line of duty to save someone

What part of the right to keep and bear arms are people not getting?

One of the most idiotic comments i read in this thread is only stupid people have guns only stupid people think the Government or the police is going to be there.

Edited to add:

Interesting note On Sons and Guns Elvis Presley met President Nixon while packing a .38. which is something no one can do today

That is how much gun control/thought crime gun laws have been pushed on the citizen in the last 40 years.
edit on 5-4-2012 by neo96 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 05:04 PM
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reply to post by neo96
 


indeed, the average response time to a 911 call is 7 minutes. as well, police are not there to protect us from crime, there there to enforce laws after crime has been commited.



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 05:05 PM
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reply to post by Unit541
 


You all make out that because your behind countries like Swaziland, Somalia and Guatemala on THE PER CAPITA LISTS of gun deaths that theres no issue


You do realise that when you compare the US to similar countries your way ahead.

I would say your the one smoking crack dude.

To everyone who took the effort to reply to me I appreciate your time but Im gonna have to leave this thread alone.
Its just way to draining and were never gonna see eye to eye, I dont mean to be rude but Im getting way to worked up and dont wanna start saying things that could get me banned.

Its the right of every American to have a gun, fine but as long as you have so many guns your also gonna have so many gun deaths its really that simple



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 05:07 PM
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Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff

Originally posted by DocHolidaze


ive said this before and im sure many others have said this as well, ever since the dawn of time when we used rocks and bones for tools has man killed his fellow man, how is any kind of gun law going to change that truth?
edit on 5-4-2012 by DocHolidaze because: (no reason given)

edit on 5-4-2012 by DocHolidaze because: (no reason given)


Well its a lot harder to kill 30 people in 10 min with rocks and bones


Unless your gang has 30 killers with rocks and bones, I imagine a hoard like this could get it done in a matter of seconds.

And you're evidencing your ignorance with your comments about per-capita statistics being irrelevant. In fact, the opposite is true. Total numbers are pretty useless when you're comparing countries with vast disparities in population. Or do you simply not understand that a population of 100 people with 2 murders a year has murder rate that is twice the murder of a population of 1000 people with 10 murders a year?

Sure, the first country only has 2 murders a year, while the second has 10. However, when you look at per-capita statistics, if you live in the first country you have a 1 in 50 chance of being murdered, while living in the second country that had 10 murders a year, you have a 1 in 100 chance of being murdered. You're twice as likely to be murdered in the country with a lower total number of murders.

So really, as has been said by others in this thread, you don't seem to have a really firm understanding of the the topic you're trying to discuss, and it's not painting you in a very favorable light.




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