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Everyone DOES understand why there can't be an Armed Population?

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posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 02:13 AM
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reply to post by SplitInfinity
 


You can convert an AK to full auto using nothing more than a wire bread bag tie, no filing required. That still doesn't make it an "Assault weapon", because by definition assault rifles are selective fire, not entirely full auto or semi-auto.

From my perspective, the distinction between full and semi auto is a ridiculous, capricious, and arbitrary one, any how. You can't do any more damage at all with a full auto than you can with a semi auto - you just burn up more ammo faster. Whether you are just holding the trigger back or twitching it as fast as you can, you cannot shift the aiming point faster than bullets are flowing from it, and it does no good nor any increased harm to dump two bullets where one will do.

edit on 2012/4/9 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 07:14 AM
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reply to post by SplitInfinity
 


Actually only the military has M-16s. The civilian equivalent is called the AR-15 and is designed so that a simple filing of parts will not make it fully auto. It isn't like the old days where removing one part from a 10-22 would make it fully auto.

The same goes for modern AK clones sold in the states. There are regulations in place to stop manufacturers from selling guns that are so easily converted. The ATF would love nothing more than to bust a manufacturer for building a gun that can be turned in to a machine gun with a file. Plus the companies would potentially be looking at huge liability cases if something was done with such a gun.

Most of the so called methods you read about on the internet are a myth.

Military style clips? Do you mean large capacity magazines? You don't have to look in to the back room. Some of the largest sporting gun stores in the nation sell 100 round magazines for popular rifles. The simple fact is that those type of accessories are not really used for crime. Most criminals want to remain discreet untill they attack. That means they aren't going to carry a 7.5lbs rifle that is 32" long plus a magazine that weighs another 5 pounds and nearly fills a duffle bag.

A congressionally mandated study of the effectiveness of the "assault weapon ban" showed that at best it had a statistically insignificant effect on crime. Not surprising considering they are used in less than 1% of violent crimes. The whole term "assault weapon" as used by the media was coined by anti-gun groups. They knew they could not gather the support for a handgun ban. So, they turned their attention to the weapons that looked like military rifles. They hoped that by playing on ignorance and fear they could get them banned to some extent. They hoped they could ride that to further support for even more severe regulation. The Washington Post admitted as much in their editorial pages when the original AWB was passed.

As for cooling down/ waiting periods, they don't work either. A study done on the effects of cooling down periods actually showed a rise in crime. People such as domestic abuse victims were unable to get guns when they needed them most. Waiting 2 to 7 days left people vulnerable. For people like the Virginia Tech and Arizona shooters they wouldn't matter. These guys planned their attacks for weeks if not months. A legally purchased gun rarely shows up in a crime less than several months after it is purchased. A 7 day waiting period would not affect that at all.

edit on 9-4-2012 by MikeNice81 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 10:09 AM
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reply to post by IkNOwSTuff
 




Some of these people who have gone on rampages have been approved for gun licenses, anyone can flip and having a gun handy isnt great when that happens.


People would be less inclined to flip out if they knew that average citizens would shoot back. Its too easy to go into a public place where no one is carrying a weapon and open fire. It really is like shooting fish in a barrel. And the entire concept of being "licensed" to carry a gun is ridiculous. A license implies that something is a privilege, and a privilege is the opposite of a right. We, in the United States, recognized our right to bear arms, Americans do not need to ask the State permission to carry a weapon. In fact, in most States you can open-carry without a license.

BUT, the majority of Americans have the same attitude towards guns that you do. We really have been raised to believe that only criminals carry guns. There was a man here in Ohio who went into a mall wearing a handgun in a holster on his hip. He was arrested for "inducing a panic" because too many people called the Cops to report him. I would have found it highly ironic, if, right after the gentlemen was arrested, some psycho decided to run through shooting up the mall.



Since we're on the topic of Rampages, they seem to happen quite alot yet very rarely outside of the USA??


Which country are you comparing us to? Because the United States has a pretty hefty population, and I am pretty sure that "rampages" are linearly related to the population of any Country. In fact, when you take the size of the population of the Unites States into consideration, the amount of "rampages" that do take place seem trivially small.


I wonder why that is? Maybe and just maybe it has something to do with the fact that guns are everywhere.


So rampages only happen in the US because the US has guns? If we didn't have any the rampages would end? I seriously doubt that.


Not gonna bother with the martial arts comment coz its just stupid.


No, its not. Its the same thing. Training in martial arts is a form of discipline that teaches the practitioner confidence and responsibility. A person who is trained in martial arts could easily harm or kill a person who is not.

Training with firearms inspires the same confidence in a person, it teaches the same responsibility. The only difference is the fact that no one complains about the dangers of a population trained in jujitsu.

Americans do not carry guns, the few law-abiding citizens who do are a small minority. Honestly, the majority of my generation views carrying guns as a criminal activity, and that's basically what has happened. The "majority" who actually carry now are criminal types.

I just do not understand the logic of people. Protecting yourself in today's world means you are a maniac. I mean, why would any human being want to protect themselves when they have a perfectly good government to do it for them? Right? Although, a lot of what it is, stems from the fact that we have become utterly dependent upon the government to protect us. We have completely lost our sense of individual independence and responsibility. Its been replaced by nanny-state governments instead.


Likewise I dont care about your opinion


yay?



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 10:21 AM
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reply to post by IkNOwSTuff
 



you and all the other gun lovers can keep em


Ok, I am glad I have your permission.


with your last comment you kinda confirmed what Ive always thought


No, that's just your own bias coming through.



Its got nothing to do with protection its more about feeling like a bigger man


wat?

Where did I imply that?

I thought you said that rampages are rampant in the United States because we have guns. Well, if we have rampant rampages, why would I only want to carry a gun to be a bad ass?

And if my only reason for wanting to carry a gun is to "be a bad ass," good for me. Either way its my right, and you can't do # about it. My "reason" for wanting to is none of your business in the first place.



or being to piss weak and scared to actually defend yourself if necessary.


Ok, this makes no sense at all. First you accuse me of carrying a gun, not to defend myself, but just to feel like a "bigger man" on an ego trip. And now you are accusing me of being "piss weak and scared to actually defend myself?"

So, if I carry a gun for any reason other than to defend myself its because I want to be a bad ass. But, in the same instant, if I carry a gun strictly for the purpose of defending myself I am "piss weak and scared to actually defend myself." Yes. That makes loads of sense.

I don't know about you, but I can't dodge bullets, and they certainly don't bounce off me.



"If all guns were wiped off the face of the Earth Id still carry a sword"
dude your a lost case and I wont be responding to you if you reply to this


That's funny, so if I don't acquiesce to your demand of strict pacifism, I am a "lost case."

Sorry, but I will not make a victim out of myself. Whether I train with a gun, a sword, jujitsu, or Kung Fu, I will have the ability to defend myself, and I certainly do not need your approval. Honestly, I cannot tell of you are being a troll or are just stupid?



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 11:37 AM
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No one is going to give their guns up just because some willy in Washington or New York says he has to and you can bank that fact



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 02:44 PM
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Gun laws are much like the war on drugs.

People kill, guns don't. You can add as many laws as you want, the criminals, the one committing the crimes will still find their guns. People don't need big brother making every choice for them.

Some make it sound like a gun fight at the ok corral, it isn't.

THe drug war hasn't prevented a single child from using drugs, if you want them, you will get them.

The 2nd amendment is there for a reason.



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 11:13 PM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 

I understand your description but what is being sold now are not the only models that are still on the PRIVATE MARKET...and the new models have been designed to be more difficult to convert...but I could do it...I am not going to post this information on the board on how to do so. Split Infinity



posted on Apr, 9 2012 @ 11:20 PM
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reply to post by MikeNice81
 

As I relpied to the previous response to me by another obove your post....yes...the newer models are more difficult to convert...but I could do it...but it would be irresponsible to post how to do it on this board....as well as there are older models out there being privately sold that are very easy to convert.

As far as the difference in crime...I agree that there is hardly a change as far as the amount of crime due to these weapons being around....but I also do not see the problem with a shot time for a proper check or waiting period to buy one of these weapons just for the possibility it is possibly being sold to a person with a criminal record.

As for large magazines that hold massive amount of rounds...there is no need for public use of this if you are hunting or home protection. Split Infinity



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 12:49 AM
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Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by nenothtu
 

I understand your description but what is being sold now are not the only models that are still on the PRIVATE MARKET...and the new models have been designed to be more difficult to convert...but I could do it...I am not going to post this information on the board on how to do so. Split Infinity



I tested the bread tie on a 1999 manufactured AK. It worked, but it was not selective fire, and the last round of the firing sequence usually left the hammer down on a live round, which had to be kicked out when recocking the hammer. Essentially, you had to clear a jam every time you released the trigger. It took 1 minute, 37 seconds to tear it down, wrap the tie, and reassemble it. I can't imagine a way of re-engineering one that would prevent that method.

New AR-15's have been redesigned to prevent easy conversion. One has to add a one more tool to the equation now, but it's not impossible - just useless. The extra tool is the least of your worries, considering the other new parts you have to acquire, and it's a useless effort, with no serious purpose. I've yet to encounter any situation where a full auto weapon out performs a semi auto for any purpose, and that includes war time. It's wasteful of ammo, and has no advantage. You can keep a head down just as easy at 2 rounds per second semi-auto as you can at 10 rounds per second full auto.

Full auto is no more useful than semi auto - it's just something else for people to freak out over. Personally, I think they ought to allow full auto if they're worried about a revolution - people will just waste their ammo much faster, with no significant increase in lethality. When they've exhausted their ammo, they're a lot easier to handle.

10 rounds peppering a wall are less lethal than one through the brain pan. Full auto only encourages spray and pray, and wastes ammo.



edit on 2012/4/10 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 01:11 AM
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Originally posted by SplitInfinity

As for large magazines that hold massive amount of rounds...there is no need for public use of this if you are hunting or home protection. Split Infinity



That depends on what you are defending your home from - remember, the Zombie Apocalypse will favor those with LCAFD's !



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 01:29 AM
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Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by SplitInfinity

As for large magazines that hold massive amount of rounds...there is no need for public use of this if you are hunting or home protection. Split Infinity



That depends on what you are defending your home from - remember, the Zombie Apocalypse will favor those with LCAFD's !


LMAO! GOOD ONE! BRB! Spilled Beer and had coming out of my nose! LOL! Split Infinity



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 02:04 AM
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Originally posted by Homedawg
The idea of an Armed American Citizenary is drawing more and more attention.Especally in light of some recent high profile shootings made even more public by the media,racial shills and Governmental interference.
Organizations who support Gun Rights For Citizens like the National Rifle Association get their say at every opportunity.
The general consensus from that side is that an armed Citizenary is able to resist any tyranny that the government might decide to try.
True as far as it goes,but it goes much deeper.
An armed citizen is a more confident person.He/she feels they can handle things themselves without asking for help and that confidence carries over into all aspects of their lives,thus making them LESS dependent on the Nanny State of the Liberal Utopia.
The Nanny State Ideal requires the people to be more of the sheeple mindset person,weak,scared, willing to go along with anything in the name of safety





I spit out my spoonful of Liberal Pops


Like scared of all the Terrorists, Sharia Law, Illegal Mexicans
and the Communist president who governs like a moderate Republican?


Or using the Government to rig Voting laws because the GOP is afraid of
having a a head to head voting match?

In my neighborhood, people who brag the hardest, fall the hardest



edit on 10-4-2012 by braindeadconservatives because: (no reason given)
edit on 10-4-2012 by braindeadconservatives because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 02:07 AM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 

I agree with your statement that short bursts are the way to go....except when you are firing a 50 Cal at a convoy of trucks or Technicals....and there is you and 8 other guys and a whole line of trucks in range and you want to take out the first and the last truck so they can't move out because they have a mountain on one side and a cliff on the other and you have plenty of ammo and are firing the new Wanderer 50 Cal that does not over heat and weighs one half the weight of a standard 50 Cal and has the new box swing underneith self clip-feed.

All this time these scum bags are jumping out of the back of these....troop transports...LOL! And you are several guys short without your sniper and have nothing to mount this Wanderer with so you are actually using rocks and peoples hands....you could never do this with a standard 50 cal.

Behind you is a village that you are WALKING OUT OF with only a couple of horses....and you know if these idiots in the trucks get by you they will kill them all....kids too. So 8 guy's in about 25 minutes take out about 60 scumbags...about 35 to begin with...then the last 25 moving up to their position as they are higher and you are exposed. The only thing you have going for you is that they can't shoot for S#!%! and even though you have a 50cal without a mount....you have to lave it after the innitial shooting to run my 40 year old plus ass closer because there is where the only cover is....believe me...it would be better to be further away as we can shoot three times as far accurately....but we have NOTHING but a flat slope we are running on and there is a natural rise about 150 meters at 10 O'clock to where they are trapped.

This is where I wished I had practiced wind sprints before I went. An AK-47 once shot moves the whole rifle way off target. It is near impossible to fire a second shot without re-aiming the weapon....by comparison...we can shoot whole clips and be relatively accurate. So the enemy slings the AK down to their waste as you get closer and fires. This gives them more stability and at close range...they burn through entire Mags.

So we use a Grenade Launcher to counter. Plus....once close enough...we can take these old Hand thrown Soviet Era grenade we wear to look like the local scumbags....throw them over the trucks and off the side of the mountain behind the trucks as that is where some of them are hiding and shooting at us from under the trucks...but these shots are sailing high as we close the distance.

Man...when something like this happens...I get REALLY PISSED OFF...that I didn't get a call....as the people who are SUPPOSED to be backing us up....if they are doing their job....can't miss a WHOLE CONVOY OF TRUCKS!

I went Ape S#!% when we got back and since I am not Military...I called out a Major...in FRONT OF HIS MEN...and they sometimes forget they can't use rank on me....tried to get a few of his men to arrest me....to which I replied...I RUN THIS MISSION! YOU TAKE ORDERS FROM ME! OPEN UP YOUR MOUTH AGAIN AND YOU WILL BE INFRONT OF A TRIBUNAL EXPLAINING WHY I HAD TO SHOOT YOU IN THE FOOT!

LOL! I love watching people turn red. Split Infinity



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 02:18 AM
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reply to post by SplitInfinity
 


It is a good thing that all FFLs have to run a criminal back ground check with each gun they sell. There is an exception for states that have a permit system that requires the same check to be done before the sell.

There are older models out there that can be converted easily. So, why haven't these massive "assault rifles" of death been a problem before now?

The SCOTUS has found that the second amendment is not limitted by "sporting use." Plus, the second second amendment says the purpose of the right to bear arms is to keep the people free. If you can't own a magazine that holds as many rounds as the army doesn't that really defeat the purpose to some extent? Above all else they are fun and make days at the range much more fun.

You are much more likely to be attacked by a criminal while they are in the act of committing another felony and carrying an easily concealable handgun. What you are saying is that you don't mind limitting someone else's freedom because it would make you warm and fuzzy.

There is no need for a Porsche 911 GT3. Also, more people are killed in wrecks where speed is a factor than by "assault rifles." So, why not offer up a ban on all cars that exceed a top speed of 80mph and accelerate faster than some arbitrary number?

I say we limit all vehicles intended for private civillian use to engines no larger than 2.0 liters and 190bhp. If you want anything else you have to file special paperwork with the federal department of transportation and get a letter of permission from your local DMV. Then you should have to wait six months while they investigate your back ground and drag their feet. You should then be required to buy a high priced tax stamp to prove that you can legally own the car. You also have to find a specially licensed dealer that the federal government will allow to transfer the car to you at a higher rate than their normal charge.
(Real gunners know what that bit of sarcasm is all about.)

Two things I find funny, you say you responded to someone before me, but the only post between your's and mine was one by nenothu, and you keep using the term clip when you mean magazine. The second is something no one with years of experience across multiple platforms should ever do. The two things are completely different and anyone that truely works on guns or is trained with guns knows the difference. Hell even PFC knows the difference.
edit on 10-4-2012 by MikeNice81 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 02:35 AM
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reply to post by MikeNice81
 

Look....I personally don't have a problem with a background check....or a waiting period....as far as assault rifles that are tamper proof...no problem with me....as far as having 200 round Magna-Ammo Magazines....a criminal could take out alot of Cops with these as they are designed to hold Tracer as well as Armour piercing rounds.

Now as a Citizen of the U.S....I demand my rights and it is the DUTY OF A CITIZEN OF THE UNITED STATES TO TAKE DOWN OR RISE UP TO REPLACE ANY GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES THAT IS NOT FOLLOWING THE RULES OF THE CONSTITUTION OR TAKING AWAY PEOPLES RIGHTS GIVEN TO US UNDER THE BILL OF RIGHTS.

This is not a thought...it actually say's something to this end in the Constitution of THE UNITED STATES. It is EVERY U.S. CITIZENS DUTY TO DO SO!

THIS is why many U.S. Citizens have guns! Not to hunt or for crime protection...but to ensure our government won't turn on us....just like Russia is turning on it's people right now. So I can see how Large Mags are good from this perspective....but I have friends who are Cops...and they are good guy's and they are scared S#!%&@$$ over oversized Mags that can carry Cop KIllers or Tracers or Massive numbers of rounds. Split Infinity



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 03:04 AM
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reply to post by SplitInfinity
 


I actually work for a police department and that is one of the last things we worry about. We are in one of the 100 most dangerous cities in the country. Perps aren't coming after cops with these weapons. They are using handguns and shot guns. Even the heads of several police unions have said to congress that "assault weapons" are not really a threat they are concerned about.

Armor piercing bullets have been outlawed for a very long time. If a criminal has "armor piercing" rounds in their rifle no ban on magazines or waiting periods were going to slow them down. They obviously have connections to get around that stuff, or have been storing and planning for a very long time.

You can actually get through the level IIIA vests that most cops use with nearly any commonly available rifle round. You don't have to buy a special bullet. (Does this make all of my British .303 ammo armor piercing?) This is something that many people know. Yet we don't see cops being mowed down by the bus load.

Another point is that they are designed to hold rounds of ammo. They aren't designed to hold tracers or ap rounds specifically. They are designed to hold rounds in a certain caliber for use in a certain type of rifle. What goes in there is up to the person loading the magazine.

I knew a cop that was shot with a 7.62x25 handgun and it pierced his vest. Does that make all FMJ 7.62x25 handgun rounds armor piercing bullets? Should we ban the 7.62x25 caliber all together? Does the fact that a cop was killed with a .22WMR revolver make that particular caliber a cop killer or just the Whinchester Dynapoint type of ammo that was fired?

Cop Killer bullets and "armor piercing" rounds have long been out of the discussion because they are media manufactured fear devices. Cops know that most rifles will shred their body armor and that any bullet can be a cop killer. Throwing those words around shows a lack of education or an attempt to incite an emotional response.

I'm done with this. You keep using the wrong terms and giving misinformation then acting hysterical about rights you don't mind curtailing.
edit on 10-4-2012 by MikeNice81 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 03:30 AM
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reply to post by SplitInfinity
 


Well, I was talking about man portable stuff rather than crew served, but yeah, Ma Duece and her ugly daughters are a whole new ballgame! I can see full auto there, in long bursts, 'cause you might need to be punching through stuff, and there nothing like a relentless hammering to bring down bricks that people are hiding behind.

You didn't specify, but your description sounds like Afghanistan instead of Iraq. Know what you call a Russian BMP on an Afghan mountain road? Answer: a microwave oven. Block the lead and the drag, and the rest are just stationary targets, because there isn't any lateral way to go for escape. I don't know what it was like after Masud got killed, but I wouldn't go into the Panjshir mechanized for love or money.

Yes, an AK-47 jumps off target like that, but the newer AK-74's just lay in your hand and purr. You can dump a 30 round mag into a 6" circle at 50 meters with one pull of the trigger. That awkward looking muzzle brake makes a world of difference. I've seen them on AKM's now, but I don't know how those are for control, since they use the same ammo as a '47.



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 03:55 AM
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Originally posted by SplitInfinity

So I can see how Large Mags are good from this perspective....but I have friends who are Cops...and they are good guy's and they are scared S#!%&@$$ over oversized Mags that can carry Cop KIllers or Tracers or Massive numbers of rounds. Split Infinity



All of the police officers around here wear IIa vests, so ANY center fire rifle round is a "cop killer". Tracer round make no difference in a civilian setting, other than the potential to start fires in volatiles. No one around here worries over tracers. All of the rifle mags I have can hold blank, ball, tracer, AP or API interchangeably. The dimensions are all the same, other than the blanks being shorter because they've got a crimp rather than a bullet. As a matter of fact, you nevr load a magazine full of tracer - you load 1 in 5 as tracer and 4 in 5 as ball, and there isn't any problem, since any magazine that will handle one will handle the other.

Pistol caliber AP rounds have to be special made - you can't buy them any more. Pity, because the cops sure could have used some against the BoA bank robbers a few years ago in California, who went in armored. Instead, they had to waste time running down to a gun shop and snagging some AR-15s. In the end, the full auto AK conversions and the drum magazines did the bad guys no good at all, and the cops got them.

I made my own 45 round mags. Call it "cut and paste" - I cut down 2 30 round magazines and then rejoined the pieces to make a 45 rounder. BATFE said it was fine, since I was destroying 2 LCAFDs to make one, effectively take one LCAFD out of the food chain, reducing the supply rather than "manufacturing a new one". I'm lazy, and don't like having to reload a magazine every time I turn around, so I prefer the big boys - but not as big as drums. Those are just awkward and heavy. They mess up the balance of your finely tuned machine as far as I'm concerned.

edit on 2012/4/10 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 10:06 PM
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Originally posted by MikeNice81
reply to post by SplitInfinity
 


I actually work for a police department and that is one of the last things we worry about. We are in one of the 100 most dangerous cities in the country. Perps aren't coming after cops with these weapons. They are using handguns and shot guns. Even the heads of several police unions have said to congress that "assault weapons" are not really a threat they are concerned about.

Armor piercing bullets have been outlawed for a very long time. If a criminal has "armor piercing" rounds in their rifle no ban on magazines or waiting periods were going to slow them down. They obviously have connections to get around that stuff, or have been storing and planning for a very long time.

You can actually get through the level IIIA vests that most cops use with nearly any commonly available rifle round. You don't have to buy a special bullet. (Does this make all of my British .303 ammo armor piercing?) This is something that many people know. Yet we don't see cops being mowed down by the bus load.

Another point is that they are designed to hold rounds of ammo. They aren't designed to hold tracers or ap rounds specifically. They are designed to hold rounds in a certain caliber for use in a certain type of rifle. What goes in there is up to the person loading the magazine.

I knew a cop that was shot with a 7.62x25 handgun and it pierced his vest. Does that make all FMJ 7.62x25 handgun rounds armor piercing bullets? Should we ban the 7.62x25 caliber all together? Does the fact that a cop was killed with a .22WMR revolver make that particular caliber a cop killer or just the Whinchester Dynapoint type of ammo that was fired?

Cop Killer bullets and "armor piercing" rounds have long been out of the discussion because they are media manufactured fear devices. Cops know that most rifles will shred their body armor and that any bullet can be a cop killer. Throwing those words around shows a lack of education or an attempt to incite an emotional response.

I'm done with this. You keep using the wrong terms and giving misinformation then acting hysterical about rights you don't mind curtailing.
edit on 10-4-2012 by MikeNice81 because: (no reason given)
OK....I was tired and had a few beers in me and made a verbal mistake. I am well aware that a CLIP is a construct to hold Ammo in a specific pattern or allignment in order for it to be placed inside a Magazine. One might even call the old 6 shooter removable and replacement Hand Gun Ammo wheel a CLIP.

As for your statement on tracers or armour piercing Ammo...just like a 357 Magnum can also take 38 Ammo...the 357 Bullets and shells are longer than a 38. There are Military Weapons that are of higher caliber that...like a standard NATO round...which is 5.56x45mm which is a rifle cartridge and developed in the United States.

It was derived from the U.S. .223 Remington Cartridge but is NOT IDENTICAL. Although the .223 Remington Round can be used as well as the 5.56x45mm NATO round which is longer in placed in an AR-15....increaced wear and tear results and an M-16 or AR-15 will have much better accuracy using the .223 round which once hits a Human Body begins to tumble causing Massive Trauma....a person has a better chance of survival being shot with an AK-47 than hit with the .223 round and U.S. troups can carrry twice the amount of rounds than a person using an AK-47 can.

As far as Tracers and Armor piercing rounds...there are many different varients such as couting a Bullet with Teflon or using a Super Hardened Bullit Tip. Tracer Rounds tend to be longer and are problematic when adapted for Small Arms Fire such as an M-16 or even AK-47.

You are wrong that the only current Rifle in use for the U.S. Military is the M-16....there are 5 different standard Rifles that I know of....several manufactured by Barrett....the M82...also known as the LIGHT 50...the Barrett M95...the Barrett M-76...in Afghanistan the U.S. is using the XM25 COUNTER DEFILADE TARGET ENGAGEMENT SYSTEM...it can be programed to detonate it's 25mm will detonate either infront or behind an enemy target...range...2300 ft...extreme lethality...so...there is alot of different rifles being used in the field...I personally have fired an experimental light weight 50 Cal and a High Velocity....small explosive round rifle that is no longer than 1.5 times the length of my forearm.

Try not to jump to conclusions when I make a mistake in the Early Morning Hours. Split Infinity



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 11:46 PM
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You are wrong that the only current Rifle in use for the U.S. Military is the M-16..


I said that only the military had M-16s. I didn't say it was their only rifle. The civilian equivalent is the AR-15 which is not select fire or capable of fully automatic fire, as sold. They also use a wider variety of ammo. You can get an AR 15 designed for everything from .22lr to .450 Bushmaster.

What I said,


Actually only the military has M-16s. The civilian equivalent is called the AR-15. . .




which once hits a Human Body begins to tumble causing Massive Trauma.

It depends on the particular load of the .223 or 5.56 in question. The yaw is usually no more than 180 degrees. The severe wounds come from the fact that the 55gr bullet tends to fracture and fragment around the cannelure. Thus multiple wound paths are created. NATO actually considers this inhumane and issues a 62gr version that does not fracture as easily in flesh.

Testing has shown that the yawing and fracturing are inconsistent though. You can not depend on it from round to round and many times you end up with an "icepick" wound. Also the yawing tends to occur after 7 inches of flesh penetration. That means in many cases it has missed any vital structure and adds little benefit to the wounding effect of the round.

Also the 5.56 and .223 are the same length with an overall of 57.40. So, I'm not exactly sure what the point of bring up the .38 and .357s length difference. The length difference between the .223 and 5.56 is the minimum length necessary between the mouth and rifling to ensure proper pressure. I do understand the pressure difference issue though.

Another thing is that they are the same caliber. They are different pressures, but they are the same caliber. Just like a .357 and .38 are technically the same caliber even though the .357 magnum is slightly longer and higher pressure. Caliber is the diameter of the barrel interior in relation to the bullet. It is the distance between opposing lands or grooves. A .38spl is actually .357" in diameter so it is the same caliber as a .357 magnum.

It seems like you may be confusing caliber, cartridge, and pressure.




Tracer Rounds tend to be longer and are problematic when adapted for Small Arms Fire such as an M-16 or even AK-47.


That is funny, the .303 British tracers I have (WWII surplus) are the same length as the surplus .303 ball ammo I have. The same is true with the surplus 7.62x39 ammo my dad has had since the early 1990s. If tracer rounds were longer it could actually cause an issue with the leade and cause pressure issues that damage the barrel and chamber or worse.




couting a Bullet with Teflon


Coating a bullet with teflon does not make it armor piercing. Teflon coating was started by KTW. They started making a tungsten alloy bullet to aid in penetration of windshields and car doors. The cost was too high so they decided to use a brass and iron design. The iron and brass design did not engage the rifling of the pistol. So in an effort to make it grip the rifling in a pistol better they coated the bullet in teflon. They also noted that it would help reduce bullet deflection as it moved through barriers. The round was intended for LEO sales only.

What made it penetrate so well was the harder iron and brass bullet. At the time most bullets were soft lead and completely deformed when used through barriers such as laminated glass or sheet metal. KTW stopped manufacturing bullets in the early 1990s. So, "teflon coated cop killers" have been out of production for 20 years. They were also a product of NBC's media hype machine. The manufacturer of the bullet even said that the teflon actually reduced the bullet's effectiveness against kevlar. What made the bullet dangerous was the iron core.

That is why federal regulation of AP bullets concentrates on the composition of the core and not the coating. However, four states do outlaw teflon coated bullets.


Again much more misinformation. You may be firing some really cool weapons, but you might want to study up on what you're holding.


edit on 11-4-2012 by MikeNice81 because: (no reason given)





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