Everyone DOES understand why there can't be an Armed Population?

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
reply to post by bobs_uruncle

 

Seen plenty of the world and only drink purified filtered water

Congrats guys, compared to Sth Africa America is safe.
Compared to western developed countries that it should be compared to its not

I would agree with your second line to some extent. Fact remains though, if you armed every law abiding citizen, the number of available guns in legitimate hands would increase dramatically, but the number of guns in criminal hands would remain relatively the same. If an appropriate uniform law were in place for all the states, like the "stand your ground law" in Florida and criminals knew that they would have a high probability of dying during criminal activity, crime would go down. Criminals like victims, they don't like adversaries.

Just look at Switzerland and their crime rate, every household has at least one automatic weapon. It's not just a good idea, it's the law.

Give everyone who wants a gun psychological testing every five years with a buy-back option if they fail testing. Weed out the lose cannons early, but don't deny legitimate people the right to defend family and property from criminals, whether it be from the "private sector" or government.

Cheers - Dave

Originally posted by DocHolidaze
reply to post by cdesigns

 

what is that gun with the scope on top?

Modified Remington 597 .22 rifle with 16.25" Barrel and 26.5" Total length. The shortest you can go legally, good plinking and small game rifle.

reply to post by cdesigns


im looking into getting a .22 ruger with a folding stock it sucks though in cali i can only fead 10 rounds at a time

Originally posted by DZAG Wright

No I won't think twice about robbing you (if I wanted) because it's known that you have a gun. Just means I'll shoot you on sight.

I'll take that bet.

If someone is coming for you, then they are coming for you. If it weren't the case then drug dealers would never be robbed and killed, and believe me, they are every day.

"Coming for me" is not the same as "surviving coming for" me.

Unless your gun is surgically connected to your hand you can/will be caught slipping. A guy showed me this when he rolled up on me in the parking lot and my gun was mere feet from my hand. But what good did it do me...NONE! Luckily he didn't really have any bad intentions.

If he can roll up that easy and catch you with your pants down, you might want to rethink that "shooting you on sight" strategy. Your sight doesn't seem to be up to it.

Have any of you ever taken someones gun from them and slapped them in the mouth with it? I have, and that's what happens with a lot of people who think themselves protected because they have a gun! If they're not shot with their own gun. Reason being most people don't have the killer instinct required when the time really comes. Their gun is nothing more than a decorative ornament and false sense of security.

Yes, I have. I've also taken knives away. Got stabbed once doing it, but them's the breaks. I got it done all the same. Folks who let you get that close (with the guns, that is) don't know what they're doing any how. Their demise won't bother me, either. They should have got better training before using a big chunk of metal for jewelery.

As someone else said, why all the fear that the government is trying to take our guns? I have seen no such indication, it's quite easy to obtain one.

1994. "Assault" Weapons ban. It didn't go quite like planned.

And if it were ever a war between the government and regular citizens o you think it's still 1942? They have weaponry to take us out without suffering any casualties. (If there really were a "they", there isn't some conspiracy by our elected representatives to murder all of us :lol

We the public are at least 50 years behind our military when it comes to weapons, for all we know they would have lasers or something that would make a cat 18 hurricane wipe us out.

It did wonders in Iraq and Afghanistan, didn't it? Good thing we have them, so that not a single one of our soldiers got killed while we were turning those countries into radioactive, laser-riddled smoking wastelands where nothing now lives. Oh, wait...

Face it, it just feels good to have guns and imagine what you can do with them. And i'm not someone against gun ownership either, I just realize that it's a lot of dreaming going on in here.

Guns are tools. It doesn't "feel good" to own one any more than it feels good to own a hammer.

edit on 2012/4/6 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)

Originally posted by KeliOnyx
An armed population is a free population. The gun "problem" in America is not a problem of guns, it is a problem with culture. Taking firearms from the law abiding citizen only puts them at the mercy of the criminal. People are people even if you managed to outlaw firearms it will just change to different weapon being used. As someone who has had to use a firearm to defend myself in my own home, I can tell you that it is something that no one should ever have to do. But I can also tell you that without the ability to do so it would have had even more drastic consequences on my life. You want to change the amount of gun related deaths, then address the cultural problems that causes them.

With respect most people in the US that post here don't believe they feel less free than ever and they do not feel that the government respects them. That is despite the fact that, according to stats given out in this thread, there are more guns being sold than ever.

But I agree that its important to focus on causes rather than symptoms of a problem. However, its an open question as to whether the widespread availability of guns in the US protects more people than it endangers.

Originally posted by babybunnies
It's amazing to me that every single time there is one of these school, university, workplace or just pure random mass shootings, there is very limited public outcry about Guns in America.

That would probably be because most Americans know that the people doing these horrific things are not your average everyday people. They are either evil, or nuts...or both. They aren't law abiding citizens.

In most other countries when something like this happens, there is mass public outcry for the Government to take action about gun possession laws, almost everywhere else except America.

If other countries are so in love with being in thrall to a nanny-state that does all their thinking for them, that's on them, in no way do I want America to follow in their footsteps.

Have Americans become so ingrained in their "right to bear arms" that even outrageous mass slaughters of civilians by gun toting nut cases won't sway them towards outrage?

Nut cases. You've answered your own question. The perpetrators of these horrific crimes are not normal, everyday citizens...they are "nutcases". For the actions of a few, you would abrogate the freedoms of all? Does that mean when someone says something you disagree with, you would silence all dissent? Didn't think so, or rather I hope not...

Let me ask you this question... If, in all of those mass shootings that so horrify you (that's a good thing, by the way...), one person, with the proper training, and a hand gun; had been there to take action, and had stopped the carnage before it progressed as far as they did, would you still be so up in arms?

This question is to everyone who is in favor of abolishing the Second Amendment...

Which amendment is next? Freedom of association? Freedom of expression? Freedom to worship as one chooses, or not to? Or any of the others enumerated in our Constitution? Because once one goes, the others may follow...the Second Amendment is the Second one for a reason... It stands as guarantor of the others. The first amendment allows you to sound the alarm...the second allows for doing something about it. All the others, as important as they are, are window dressing for the first two.

Our founding fathers, as flawed as they were, knew this, how is it that we've forgotten this?

Just askin'.

The confident srmed mindset is the one they can't stand...remember"clinging bitterly to their guns and their religion"?...or how Mr Holders rant about brainwashing people against guns?,.. Oh yeah.. They want them alright

reply to post by seagull

That would probably be because most Americans know that the people doing these horrific things are not your average everyday people. They are either evil, or nuts...or both. They aren't law abiding citizens.

Why is it that America has such a large number of these evil nuts? In my lifetime there have been 1 rampage killing in OZ.

If other countries are so in love with being in thrall to a nanny-state that does all their thinking for them, that's on them, in no way do I want America to follow in their footsteps.

Thats just laughable, give me one western country comparable to the USA that is more of a controlled nanny state than you guys?

Nut cases. You've answered your own question. The perpetrators of these horrific crimes are not normal, everyday citizens...they are "nutcases". For the actions of a few, you would abrogate the freedoms of all?

I dont think anyone would deny that something was seriously wrong with these people, would some of them have been able to get a gun legally? Yep killers have killed with legally purchased weapons.
But in the case of the schoolkids, where did they get the guns from? parents perhaps or did they go out and deal with gun runners?
In countries were gun ownership isnt prevelant there is absolutely no chance these kids would have had access to guns let alone dozens of them.

Which amendment is next? Freedom of association? Freedom of expression? Freedom to worship as one chooses, or not to? Or any of the others enumerated in our Constitution? Because once one goes, the others may follow...the Second Amendment is the Second one for a reason... It stands as guarantor of the others. The first amendment allows you to sound the alarm...the second allows for doing something about it. All the others, as important as they are, are window dressing for the first two.

So what good have guns done for you so far, I read on almost a daily basis about how Americans rights are being stripped away and your constitution being spat on yet it still goes on.
Funnily enough since none of you are doing anything now when you could still do it peacefully if and when they do come to take you all and put you in the camps its gonna be the ones who remember the constitution who have the guns and all end up getting killed by the military.

Once again just admit you like guns,
Stop lying to yourself and everyone else that guns everywhere make you safer

Some numbers for you:

The population in the United States is around 303 million people, and the U.S. has an estimated 283 million guns in civilian hands and the number is rising by over 50,000 every month in FL alone.

Originally posted by cdesigns
The population in the United States is around 303 million people, and the U.S. has an estimated 283 million guns in civilian hands and the number is rising by over 50,000 every month in FL alone.

And despite that, the US homicide rate has been trending sharply downward for 20 years. The homicide rate in 2010, which is the latest data I've seen, puts the rate at half of what it was in 1991, a difference of 10,000 in total. In fact, you have to go all the way back to the late 1960s to find a year in which there were fewer total homicides than in 2010...or 2009.

I don't know if that means that more guns make the US *safer* or not, but its pretty apparent that its not making it more dangerous as time passes. The most ironic thing is that its generally not the 'gun crazed rednecks' that are shooting each other, either. Its the 'civilized' folks in the metropolitan centers. The cities are skewing the homicide rate upwards, whereas the people in about 90% of the geographic landmass of the country have demonstrated they can own their firearms responsibly.

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff

In countries were gun ownership isnt prevelant there is absolutely no chance these kids would have had access to guns let alone dozens of them.

Yeah just like those kids in those other countries don't have access to illegal drugs because they are outlawed... Sigh!...

How naive do you have to be to believe outlawing guns prevents anyone from having one if they want one? What part of "prohibition" (whether its alcohol drugs or guns) does not work and never has worked in history do you not understand?

reply to post by hawkiye


True in almost any country you can get drugs just by asking a few dodgy looking people, if you have the time and inclination you can get yourself a spliff or 2 within a few hours due to most people thinking its quite harmless.

Guns however... I dont know 1 person who lives in a city in Australia, Malaysia or England who own a gun and to get one is no easy task but I never said impossible.
Our cultures are different and not many people actually want a gun, if they do its to kill someone not to protect themselves

Sorry but its you who is being naive thinking everyone having a gun makes you safer

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
reply to post by hawkiye

 

True in almost any country you can get drugs just by asking a few dodgy looking people, if you have the time and inclination you can get yourself a spliff or 2 within a few hours due to most people thinking its quite harmless.

Guns however... I dont know 1 person who lives in a city in Australia, Malaysia or England who own a gun and to get one is no easy task but I never said impossible.
Our cultures are different and not many people actually want a gun, if they do its to kill someone not to protect themselves

Sorry but its you who is being naive thinking everyone having a gun makes you safer

So what you seem to be saying here is that it's possible for criminals intent on murder to get a gun anyhow, but that it is bad form for anyone to have a gun to protect themselves from that, right?

So then you believe that being armed to be prepared to meet another armed person whose intent is murder is naive? Should we perhaps offer them tea and biscuits instead, and apologize for getting in the way of their murderous intent?

Being prepared for adverse events is naive and unsafe?

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
reply to post by hawkiye

 

True in almost any country you can get drugs just by asking a few dodgy looking people, if you have the time and inclination you can get yourself a spliff or 2 within a few hours due to most people thinking its quite harmless.

Guns however... I dont know 1 person who lives in a city in Australia, Malaysia or England who own a gun and to get one is no easy task but I never said impossible.
Our cultures are different and not many people actually want a gun, if they do its to kill someone not to protect themselves

Sorry but its you who is being naive thinking everyone having a gun makes you safer

Its either or. Either every one has a gun or no one has a gun. No law will make either of these happen. So since guns are already invented and in the hands of someone else, a level playing field is justified. You would not jump on a video game to try and beat someone who was using cheats and expect to win would you? You would not try to win against a car that had 5x the horsepower yours does would you? You would not try to download a 5GB file on dial up would you? well the same rule applies about bringing a knife to a gun fight.

reply to post by nenothtu


Im saying in other countries getting a gun is so difficult as to make it impractical and even if you do go to the effort to get one by the time you get it you have had a chance to cool down.

Im not saying being prepared makes you naive Im saying believing everyone having guns or everyone having easy access to guns makes you safer is naive. It is without question not true yet some of your compatriots keep spitting it out.

If you like guns get one by all means, its your right as an American but guns everywhere is not safe and having one unless you walk around with it in your hand cocked and loaded isnt going to make you statistically or realistically any safer, it will just give you the illusion this is the case

Originally posted by scoobdude


Its either or. Either every one has a gun or no one has a gun. No law will make either of these happen. So since guns are already invented and in the hands of someone else, a level playing field is justified. You would not jump on a video game to try and beat someone who was using cheats and expect to win would you? You would not try to win against a car that had 5x the horsepower yours does would you? You would not try to download a 5GB file on dial up would you? well the same rule applies about bringing a knife to a gun fight.

edit on 8-4-2012 by scoobdude because: (no reason given)

We do just fine in the rest of the civilised developed world without normal non criminally minded sociopaths having a weapon.

Its funny how you all dream about a society where everyone has guns, why not dream od one where no one has one? As you pointed out they are as likely as each other one just doesnt have tools thats only purpose is to kill readily available.

All your arguments suggest you dont want to be safe but that you want guns, stuff everyone else if Im safe in my home who cares about those who dont want guns,

NO ONE should have, want or need a gun, why dont any of you see this

Some of you have even gone as far as to say that even if no criminals had guns you would still want one and if there were no guns youd get a sword.

Ill say it again, most of you dont want or need a gun for safety you want a gun so you have a gun

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
NO ONE should have, want or need a gun, why dont any of you see this

Its because we don't live in fear of the average gun owner.

I think you have the wrong impression of what's happening in the vast majority of this country with regards to guns, and what's happening is absolutely nothing. 99.99% of the people who own guns legally will never be convicted of anything more than a traffic offense. Why shouldn't they be able to own a firearm if all its ever used for is to hunt and to sit in a closet...just in case...someone breaks in? I couldn't care less that the 8000 people in my town could probably outfit a small army. The odds of me dying from a gunshot wound are FAR less than from me getting killed in an auto accident driving to work. Geographically, that's going to be true for about 85-90% of the country. Why should we lose our rights because the 'civilized' fools in the metropolitan areas can't control themselves? And how are those handgun bans working out in places like Baltimore, DC, and Chicago, anyway, where their percentage of the national homicides far outstrip their percentage of the US population?

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Im saying in other countries getting a gun is so difficult as to make it impractical and even if you do go to the effort to get one by the time you get it you have had a chance to cool down.

Im not saying being prepared makes you naive Im saying believing everyone having guns or everyone having easy access to guns makes you safer is naive. It is without question not true yet some of your compatriots keep spitting it out.

If you like guns get one by all means, its your right as an American but guns everywhere is not safe and having one unless you walk around with it in your hand cocked and loaded isnt going to make you statistically or realistically any safer, it will just give you the illusion this is the case

But you said that criminals get guns even in those "disarmed" countries, yet maintain that it's naive for the intended victims to be equally armed in the interest of countering that.

BTW, I do keep my weapon cocked and locked. I don't keep it in hand, rather in a holster under my arm, but it doesn't take long to get it into that hand. The key to that is being aware of what's going on around you. I have yet to encounter a disagreeable situation that did not telegraph itself at least a few seconds before showtime.

I once had a police officer ask me "is that thing loaded?" to which I responded "of course it is - it wouldn't do much good otherwise, would it? I'm assuming your is loaded, too.... right?" He grinned and sent me on my merry way.

My point is, you are correct - if it's not ready to go when you need it, then it's just an expensive paperweight.

reply to post by freethinker123


Actually it isn't really a debate. Most studies show that for every injury with a gun at least 14 lives are saved. Compared to deaths it is closer to 68 saves for every death. The debate has long been over and violent crime in America has dropped steadily for nearly thirty years.

You can look at the FBI and CDC statistics to see the drop. You can also look towards the survey published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology in 2000 that showed U.S civillians used guns 989,833 times to defend their life and property.

In the vast majority of incidents the mere presence of the gun stops the crime. I know that personally I have used a gun to save a life four times. In none of those cases did I ever fire a shot. However, without the gun, I'm pretty sure the two meth heads with a tire iron would have followed through on their threat to rob and kill me. The guy with the knife trying to stab me in broad day light for my money and groceries certainly had no qualms with killing me. The guy that threatened to shiv me at a gas pump turned out to be a mental patient with a long history of arrests for violent behavior. I'm sure he would have had no issues watching me bleed while he took my money and car.

So, people can talk about taking the guns all day long. Until they've had the wolves at the door they can also kiss off. We have an issue with our society not addressing the underlying issues. Better mental health services, easier access to drug rehab, and many other things would stop crime faster than taking my weapon.

Go to Just Facts to see a balanced presentation of the gun control subject.

The fact remains that U.S. Citizens maintain the right to bear arms. It is a right that was written by our forefathers and although there are a few different regulations in different states....waiting periods....which I think is a good thing so as not to sell a weapon to a person who has had this privalege revoked by commiting a Felony or as some have stated...acts as a Cooling Down period that will allow a person who is REALLY PISSED OFF....some time to think....the fact remains that anyone in the U.S. can get an FID or Hand Gun Permit....as well as buy ammo.

As far as Assault Weapons....I am Trained in Multiple Weapons use as well as how to field strip and clean and put it back together....but I also know that a person of my training or anyone who can use a computer can take various Semi-automatic Rifles....file down a few specific parts and especially in the case of an AK-47 or even M-16...can convert these types of weapons into FULL AUTOMATIC....and Large Military Style Clips are easily available over the net or even in back rooms of Gun Shops that will make these at one time Semi-Automatic Rifles into FULLY AUTOMATIC...LARGE ROUND CAPACITY...KILLING MACHINES.

Split Infinity