Anti-Zionism =/= Anti-Semitism

ok, so i've been studying on the history of the Middle East, the Arab world, the Israel/Arab conflict, and Islam for the past few days and after reading the recent site owner post about cracking down on racist/hateful comments and threads i was inspired to post this thread. i didn't notice a whole lot of talk on this board about the Arab world beyond recent news regarding Iran (which, btw, isn't technically an Arab country) so i felt this would be a nice change of pace.

i'm not going to go into a long diatribe about the history or my position on any of these situations, particularly Israel/Palestine relations and Zionism, but below i have posted a link to some information that is not common knowledge about these things. they are definitely biased towards Palestine, but nonetheless what i have found so far here seems to be generally factual.

basically, my reason for posting this thread is to address a long standing trend in the US to label anyone opposed to Zionism (though not necessarily Semitism) as an anti-Semite due to a lack of understanding of what Zionism is, the history behind this, and the history of Zionist influence in the UN, particularly the US, and subsequently around the world. check out this link for information regarding this:

www.ifamericansknew.org...

Don't believe everything that you read,

There are clearly Anti-Semites that are also Anti-Zionist, they do exist, period. Do not claim they cannot exist, because they do. Are all Anti-Zionists Anti-Semites? No, what % are? No one can say, you don't have the numbers on that because no one does.

Concerning that site you claim is gold, it is ran by a lady that is clearly biased.

en.wikipedia.org...

Criticism

If Americans Knew published a study critical of The New York Times coverage of Israeli and Palestinian deaths, and met with then New York Times Public Editor Daniel Okrent to discuss their study.[2][18] In subsequent column Okrent mentioned the meeting and If Americans Knew's assertion that "The Times conscientiously reports on the deaths of Israeli children but ignores the deaths of Palestinian children", but dismissed If Americans Knew's conclusions, writing "The representatives of If Americans Knew earnestly believe that the information they presented to me about the killing of Palestinian children to be 'simple objective criteria.' But I don't think any of us can be objective about our own claimed objectivity." He also stated that "representatives of If Americans Knew expressed the belief that unless the paper assigned equal numbers of Muslim and Jewish reporters to cover the conflict, Jewish reporters should be kept off the beat" and said he found that "profoundly offensive." [19] Weir denied this, indicating that If Americans Knew had suggested that The New York Times team of reporters and editors covering Israel-Palestine be as diverse as possible.[18] If Americans Knew's study of The New York Times has also been criticized by the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America (CAMERA), for "selective and biased use and interpretation of information" and "flawed methodology".[20]

The Anti-Defamation League has called If Americans Knew one of several "anti-Israel organization[s]",[21] and further asserts that "Weir's criticism of Israel has, at times, crossed the line into anti-Semitism." They cited Weir's use of a quotation by Israel Shahak that characterized beliefs of certain Israelis as “such a ruthless and supremacist faith.”[22] Weir herself stated that she considered this quoted characterization as not pertaining to the mainstream of Judaism,[23] and has demanded that the ADL correct what she termed "defamatory and inaccurate statements." [24] The ADL voiced concern about an article written by board member Paul Findley in which he blamed America's relationship with Israel for the September 11 Attacks.[25]

Andy Newman, in a Op-ed in The Guardian, stated that "an article by Alison Weir... defends the unsubstantiated and implausible claims made by the Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet about Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinians in Gaza to harvest their organs. Weir implied, with no evidence, that Israel is at the centre of international organ smuggling. She then explicitly argued that the medieval "blood libel" – that Jews kill Christian children – has a basis in fact."[26] The 'Aftonbladet claims' refer to Donald Boström's accusations of Israeli organ harvesting. Weir responded in a letter to the editor, stating: "My article contains considerable additional information on Israeli organ trafficking and its subsidy by the Israeli government, many of its 37 citations from Israeli media. Perhaps for Mr Newman this constitutes "no evidence".[27] She added that, at the end of one[28] of her two articles on Israeli organ trafficking [28] she had included a short section in which she quoted Israeli media reports that a prominent Israeli professor of medieval Jewish history had published a book on the subject, referring to Ariel Toaff's book, which had argued that the medieval blood libel may have had a basis in purported medieval Jewish ritual murders.[28]

reply to post by eboyd


Facts are funny things. They can be used by two opposing sides by changing context.

Israel only strikes after being attacked. Hamas and the Hezbollah initiate the attacks and then Israel responds. Hamas has declared it wishes to kill all Jews and want's them gone. Hamas and Hezbollah are funded by Iran and it's weapons are provided by Iran. I see no chart laying out the weapons and money coming to Hamas from Iran. Don't we need all the facts?

Israel has better and more lethal weapons. Hamas simply lobs thousands of random missiles into any area, even civilian area's. If Hamas had better weapons, the body count on the Israel side would be massive. Israel would already be gone and Jews wiped out as is the stated goal in the Charter of Hamas. They make no secret genocide is their goal and it's no secret that they have heavy financial backing from Iran.

Why does Hamas hide in areas where the children are? Don't they care about their own families? They hide among women and children because they know it will protect them. However Hamas does not care where their missiles land.

If Hamas gets better missiles and continues to launch them by the thousands into civilian area's, don't you think the body count in Israel will balloon way higher the other way?

Should those graphs not show the level of funding and value of the weapons that Iran gives to Hamas and Hezbollah?

There is no right side in this. It's all madness. For either side to claim moral superiority is for both sides to lie in my opinion.

Yes Israel has radical Zionists among it's population. Yes the Palestinians have radical Islamist who want to commit genocide against all Jews, not just the Zionists. What is your solution? What percentage of Jews are you saying are Zionists? Do you support Hamas and their goal of genocide? If you were on the receiving side of thousands of missiles from a group that want's you and all your people dead, how would you react?

I see a giant mess made far worse after Hamas took over the Palestinians with the assistance of Iranian money and weapons. I see Israel caught in a trap they cannot escape and a population that no doubt overreacts as they duck the thousand of missiles.

Originally posted by Razimus
There are clearly Anti-Semites that are also Anti-Zionist, they do exist, period.

did i deny this to be the case? read my words more carefully. if i denied this i would have to concede that Nazism either doesn't exist/never existed, or that it isn't anti-Zionist. of course there are those who are both anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist, but what the title and this thread are meant to portray are simply that anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism are not the same thing. there are those that are both, but many (i'd argue the vast majority though like you said i have no proof of this claim) anti-Zionists are not anti-Semites.

DConcerning that site you claim is gold, it is ran by a lady that is clearly biased.

i didn't say it was gold, i simply said the information that i have reviewed and am concerned with appear to be factual so far and i haven't personally seen any info that seems to be erroneous based on research i've done. but let's check what info you provide to see if i am wrong.

If Americans Knew published a study critical of The New York Times coverage of Israeli and Palestinian deaths, and met with then New York Times Public Editor Daniel Okrent to discuss their study.[2][18] In subsequent column Okrent mentioned the meeting and If Americans Knew's assertion that "The Times conscientiously reports on the deaths of Israeli children but ignores the deaths of Palestinian children", but dismissed If Americans Knew's conclusions, writing "The representatives of If Americans Knew earnestly believe that the information they presented to me about the killing of Palestinian children to be 'simple objective criteria.' But I don't think any of us can be objective about our own claimed objectivity." He also stated that "representatives of If Americans Knew expressed the belief that unless the paper assigned equal numbers of Muslim and Jewish reporters to cover the conflict, Jewish reporters should be kept off the beat" and said he found that "profoundly offensive."

whether they had an equal number of Jewish and Muslim reporters is irrelevant. i know of anti-Zionist Jews, for example, that may purport the numbers in favor of Palestine. what is important is that you have reporters who present facts from reliable sources, not what religion the reporters are a part of.

If Americans Knew's study of The New York Times has also been criticized by the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America (CAMERA), for "selective and biased use and interpretation of information" and "flawed methodology".

this seems a much more solid criticism. i'd like to see some info on CAMERA as well as what caused them to feel the info was gathered using flawed methodology.

The Anti-Defamation League has called If Americans Knew one of several "anti-Israel organization[s]",[21] and further asserts that "Weir's criticism of Israel has, at times, crossed the line into anti-Semitism."

see, this is exactly what i am talking about. as your passage claims this is based on an interpretation of a quote from Weir that she has contested as it grossly misrepresents her opinion. the following is also indicative of the opinions of anti-Zionists being spun into anti-Semitism:

The ADL voiced concern about an article written by board member Paul Findley in which he blamed America's relationship with Israel for the September 11 Attacks.

of course it isn't explicitly stated that Findley is anti-Semitic, but it came in the context of claims of the people reporting for this site being anti-Semitic. is it not true that we were attacked explicitly for our relationship with Israel (among other things, though certainly not "because of our freedoms" as it has been purported time and again by American politicians and media, conservative and liberal alike)? the terrorists who attacked us explicitly stated this as a reason for attacking us. this is a fact. what may not be as well established, though it has been reasonably argued, is that America's relationship with Israel has led to American interests turning a blind eye to atrocities committed by Israel especially against the Palestinian people. these atrocities led to animosity against the US which led to widespread support within the Arab world for hatred against America. this hatred led a small, extremist group to attack us on September 11th.

Originally posted by Blaine91555Israel only strikes after being attacked. Hamas and the Hezbollah initiate the attacks and then Israel responds.

not true at all. both sides have initiated attacks at different times. neither is innocent here.

Hamas has declared it wishes to kill all Jews and want's them gone. Hamas and Hezbollah are funded by Iran and it's weapons are provided by Iran.

militant right-wing neo-Nazi groups in the US have made similar claims about Jews, blacks, and other minorities, and have acted on them (think Timothy McVeigh). does that mean we should blame and attack the whole midwest US to try to stomp out these extremists? while Hamas and Hezbollah may be larger than militant neo-Nazi groups, they are still just extremist groups who represent only a fraction of the Palestinian population.

I see no chart laying out the weapons and money coming to Hamas from Iran. Don't we need all the facts?

absolutely, but those facts have been presented plenty of times by several different sources, and btw, the death toll of Israeli citizens are mentioned at the website i presented as well, they just aren't discussed because this site is not meant to present all the facts. it is there to present the facts that have been withheld from that side of the argument. of course the site has an agenda, but its agenda is simply to counterbalance an agenda that was established over 100 years ago.

Israel has better and more lethal weapons. Hamas simply lobs thousands of random missiles into any area, even civilian area's.

and Israel isn't doing the same thing??

If Hamas had better weapons, the body count on the Israel side would be massive. Israel would already be gone and Jews wiped out as is the stated goal in the Charter of Hamas. They make no secret genocide is their goal and it's no secret that they have heavy financial backing from Iran.

the death toll from the other side is far higher, Palestinian CIVILIANS (this word is vital as i am not talking about terrorists tied to Hamas or Hezbollah) are being killed, others having their houses demolished in front of their eyes, by Isreali soldiers who laugh as they do these hideous things (this has been caught on video. i'll find some footage of this if you don't believe me), and, by your own admission, Israel has far more, and far superior, weaponry and they have used it time and again on blatantly civilian targets.

Why does Hamas hide in areas where the children are? Don't they care about their own families? They hide among women and children because they know it will protect them. However Hamas does not care where their missiles land.

]

this is why:



they aren't hiding, they LIVE there. there are no Hamas or Hezbollah strongholds. they fight amongst women and children because that's where they reside. no sleeping quarters away from civilians, no organized military tactics. and again, i am not condoning the actions of these terrorist organizations. i am simply condemning the actions of the Israeli military which is even more guilty of attacking civilian targets than Hamas and Hezbollah are.

If Hamas gets better missiles and continues to launch them by the thousands into civilian area's, don't you think the body count in Israel will balloon way higher the other way?

probably, but i also think that if tensions hadn't been built up between Israel and Palestine over the last century plus the Palestinian people and Iranian government wouldn't largely support Hamas and Hezbollah.

Should those graphs not show the level of funding and value of the weapons that Iran gives to Hamas and Hezbollah?

i feel they are simply trying to counterbalance the facts. and again, they do report the Israeli death toll as well.

There is no right side in this. It's all madness. For either side to claim moral superiority is for both sides to lie in my opinion.

the forces on both side are wrong, but the Palestinian people are living in conditions that are similar to Apartheid inflicted on them directly by the Israeli government. this doesn't happen to Israeli citizens. the death and displacement tolls are much higher for Israel.

What is your solution?

it's hard to say at this point what the solution is. the situation is so complicated. i came not to propose a solution, but simply to lay waste to claims that anti-Zionism is equivalent to anti-Semitism.

What percentage of Jews are you saying are Zionists?

idk nor do i care. there are anti-Zionist Jews as well as Zionist non-Jews. this has nothing to do with who is what.

Do you support Hamas and their goal of genocide?

no

If you were on the receiving side of thousands of missiles from a group that want's you and all your people dead, how would you react?

this question can apply in either direction.

So how come there isn't an English/American equivalent for anti-muslim antisemitism,

if aunty Zionism is anti-jewish antisemitism?



(how convenient, of Roths & Royals, lol)

Originally posted by BiggerPicture
So how come there isn't an English/American equivalent for anti-muslim antisemitism,

if aunty Zionism is anti-jewish antisemitism?

(how convenient, of Roths & Royals, lol)

edit on 4-4-2012 by BiggerPicture because: (no reason given)

i don't think the terms matter so much. "anti-Muslim anti-Semitism" doesn't make any sense. last i checked Muslims aren't Semitic. you would just call it bigotry against Muslims.

reply to post by eboyd


Semitic is a general term for people from the Middle East, mostly Muslim but also Christians as well.
It does not include Europeans who have moved to Israel.
Yes, there is no balance in coverage as there once was (way back in the 70' ) when popular support for the Palestinian cause led Jimmy Carter to start the Camp David peace accords.
We no longer have the political will to broker such a peace because the Palestinians are completely ignored, even when such atrocities as Operation Cast Lead happen. They are covered with the Pro-Israeli spin of "fighting terrorism" while the entire Arab population suffers.

reply to post by eboyd


First my compliments. I expected another hate thread and find a reasonable debate. Very refreshing.

I wonder, how would you propose the Israelis accomplish peace with Hamas in control of one area and Hezbollah always lurking in another? What would you do? How do you propose that Israel solve this problem?

Originally posted by AsktheanimalsSemitic is a general term for people from the Middle East, mostly Muslim but also Christians as well.
It does not include Europeans who have moved to Israel.

this is a great point. i just looked this up and you are absolutely right. i was, of course, referring to the contemporary use of the term that refers specifically to Jewish people.

Originally posted by Blaine91555First my compliments. I expected another hate thread and find a reasonable debate. Very refreshing.

I wonder, how would you propose the Israelis accomplish peace with Hamas in control of one area and Hezbollah always lurking in another? What would you do? How do you propose that Israel solve this problem?

thank you. that is why i made sure to preface my post with the fact that the recent crackdown of hate/racism on ATS partially inspired this thread. i was trying to explain that this is in no way a pro-Palestine/anti-Israel thread (though i'd say it could be categorized as an anti-Zionist thread, or at least one to question the validity of Zionism).

as for your question, again, i do not feel there are any easy answers. this issue has been brewing for more than a century now and i don't think it will be solved until many decades if not centuries from now when everyone in the world is an amalgam of every race and culture imaginable, and when every culture has mashed together with others to create cultures that can more easily relate to each other. i feel we are witnessing the infancy of this occurrence and we will just have to let it play out before any definitive answer to such issues as this one get solved. in the mean time, i do feel that America needs to stop getting involved so heavily in relations between the two groups (and in the Middle East and other parts of the world in general). UN interference, in recent years particularly that of the US, has only lead to one side being far stronger than the other which, in itself, largely created the tensions that we are currently witnessing. based on what US intervention has lead to in the past with various Islamic terror attacks on US soil as well as US embassies, i wouldn't be surprised if in the distant (maybe even not so distant) future we began seeing a wave of terror attacks from Latin American nations as well (not condoning them, just making predictions based on history).

reply to post by eboyd


I am glad you put it into words. You are so right. If a group of american terrorist shows up in the US and tries to kill people, I hate only this group of american terrorists, not all the americans. That is like the ''your thumb is a finger but not all your fingers are thumbs'' principle.

IMO anti-Zionism, as it is today, is Pro-semetic. The people of Israel are tired of the way they are lead and live. The only problem is that their political structure is set up in a way that the average Israeli has little influence on the governance of their country. Sound familiar?

reply to post by intrepid


Yup. Israel people has the same problem than us: Elite, the Prieure of Sion, the satanic bloodline, Sion. Google ''Black Nobility'': that IS Zion.

interesting timing with my posting of this thread. Al Jazeera today put up this video:

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by eboyd

 

Facts are funny things. They can be used by two opposing sides by changing context.

They can also be used to show the appalling violence that one country commits against another on a daily basis. A bull# claim that this is your land is no right to force people out of their homes, enslave other races, kill and torture.

Did we have to create Israel becuase of the suffering during the holocaust?

Are these the lessons that those who were imprisoned, persecuted and killed learnt - an eye for an eye??

Zionism exists to promote Israel, to destroy Palestine

I think the dispute over the validity of the term ''anti-Semitism'' is somewhat of a genetic fallacy.

It is universally understood to mean prejudice against, or hatred of, Jewish people; any pedantry over the term which is used to express this concept is irrelevant.

I think that it's perfectly possible for someone to be anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic, but you would have to be pretty myopic or naive not to notice the vast number of people who use the seemingly ''legitimate'' label of anti-Zionism as a gateway to express their true anti-Semitic feelings.