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The Common Thread: How we're all really being manipulated

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posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 08:45 PM
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So I've looked at what's been going on in this forum over the last month, including some really bad behaviour on my own part. This morning, however, I suddenly realised the common thread that I think exists behind all of it.

We allow ourselves to be manipulated into thinking, that there is always some external group to ourselves, who are a threat and who need to be attacked.

For white people, it's black people, and for black people, it's white people.
For Communists, it's the Capitalists. For Capitalists, it's the Communists.
For conservatives, it's the liberals, and for the liberals, it's conservatives.
For feminists, it's men, and for men, it's feminists.
For homosexuals, it's straight people, and for straight people, it's homosexuals.
For the sovereignty movement, it's the government, and for the government, it's the sovereignty movement.
For Atheists, it's Christians, and for Christians, it's Atheists.
For Occupy, it's Wall Street, and for Wall Street, it's Occupy.
For Muslims, it's the rest of the planet, and for the rest of the planet, it's Muslims.

You probably get the idea. I mainly thought of this when, a few moments ago, another post I read prompted me to think that the Freemasons are the real bane of humanity's existence, and so I should go into the Secret Societies forum, and start abusing any of them that I could find, and calling them an evil cabal, etc etc.

That's always the central issue, though. There's always an external "them," whether it's another social, sexual, or religious group, who we think are responsible for all of the world's problems, and who we think we need to attack; because we start to think that that one group are ultimately the ones behind all of the bad things that are going on, and so if we could just get rid of them, everything would be fine, etc. No matter who you are, there's always a tailor made bogeyman demographic, just for you; and if you can't find one, you can always just default back to Islam.


I think there's probably a message in this for us. We possibly need to start realising, that the fact that we spend most of our time focused on how some other special interest group are a threat, is what is probably draining most of our energy, and preventing us from getting anything really useful done. A paranoid persecution complex has apparently become a social institution; we're now all so afraid of each other that it is paralysing us.

I know it's going to be difficult, because of how afraid of each other we are, but I think we are somehow going to have to start breaking through this. We've got to begin to realise that racism and looking at other people as, "them," who are "out to get us," doesn't accomplish anything other than polarisation. If we become visibly scared of some other group, and demonstrate it to them, they start becoming equally terrified of us. The result is negative, disempowering, and potentially deadly for both sides.

I probably need to start, by going and looking for a Freemason who I can give a hug.




posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 08:54 PM
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reply to post by petrus4
 


Bravo!

As should be obvious to most people who've seen both our postings, the OP and I have vastly different views. But I respect the OP enormously for the quality of thought he (she?) brings to this board.

In the end, quality and mutual respect are what matters. And this thread dovetails nicely with Springer's recent pronouncement.

A virtual hug for my filthy capitalist pig friend Petrus!



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 09:02 PM
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Originally posted by Leftist
reply to post by petrus4
 


A virtual hug for my filthy capitalist pig friend Petrus!


*hugs* back, Leftist.



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 09:38 PM
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No matter what side of the fence you sit on, setting people's focus on each other grants a 3rd party more freedom of movement to do what they want to.

Arrogance will be their demise. It will be a day to remember when enough people let the little stuff go and find a common ground. A great day indeed.



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 09:47 PM
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Why doesn't everybody just leave everybody else the hell alone?!

I'll tell you why.

We live in a societal construct where everyone endeavors to live at the expense of everyone else.

Therefore, it's only natural for people to blame "everybody else" when they feel let down by the system.



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 09:52 PM
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I hope you do not mind my saying this...

But as a Muslim, its not the Freemasons who are the threat.

Its average ordinary people who will believe anything they hear or see, without going and finding out what the truth is for themselves. This requires a broader range of experience than I know most are able. But it is the people who believe I am a threat, who are a threat to my existence... I fear them because I have had a gun to my head, because I have been threatened with physical violence simply for breathing and no other reason. Because they believed I 'might be' evil, because they believed when someone else said I hated them and wanted to destroy their way of life... when nothing could be further from the truth.

I am certain blacks might feel the same way.

Some of us fear you because you gave us an awful lot to fear. We are not safe from you even in our own countries in our own homes...

There is an us and them...

When I say no these things are not true, I am called a liar and told I am distorting the truth, yet you all have not the wide range of experience to know for fact. See one group of thugs and think all Muslims are like that? Really? You judge a billion people based on a few thousand?

Yet I do not blame everyone, what I blame most is government policy and media lies and distortion...And the people on all sides who play these things to their advantage.



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 10:02 PM
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Ignorance, lack of empathy and understanding is what makes our differences separate us.



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 10:19 PM
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Eastern philosophy embraces the duality of life not as some sort of problem that needs to be handled but as the cornerstone to understanding our problems. According to the Tao, the moment we recognize beauty is the moment we understand ugliness. The moment we recognize good is the moment we understand evil, and the moment we recognize evil is the moment we understand good.

If everyone is right then no one is wrong, and yet experience shows us that this idea smacks of contradiction. Eastern philosophy seems to be much more at ease with contradictions than Western philosophy. Indeed, Ayn Rand insists that there are no contradictions and when confronted with one we should check our premise. I have long found this advice to be useful, but unlike Rand who had no kind things at all to say about Zen and other Eastern thought, I also find the embrace of duality to be useful.

The thing about this duality, however, is that it does not mean that we must surrender our own point of view to some sort of group think or collective, and certainly not to mindlessness. Rand's problem with Zen lies in the translation of the word she was given, which she understood to mean "no thought". This fascinates me because my understanding of the word Zen in translation is "the way of the small thought" which implies a sort of focus that Rand actually advocates.

Was Rand too much of an ideologue? Possibly. I am constantly accused of being too much of an ideologue, but here's the thing; I can embrace the duality between communism and capitalism without surrendering my own right to property. Pierre-Joseph Proudhon declared that all property is theft, but when I wake up in a morning with an itchy spider bite, I do not lament this and despair in wonder as to why that spider hates me so, I understand it came down to property dispute and the right to defend ones property. I will generally be grateful that the dispute was not with a Brown spider or Black Widow and remain confident that if this spider insists on dragging the dispute on I will ultimately - with a rolled up newspaper - have the winning hand. Does this make me an ideologue or just someone tired of being bit by a spider?



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 10:23 PM
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Civility is vital.

And honesty is the basis of civility.

Honesty breeds respect..



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 10:34 PM
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Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
Eastern philosophy embraces the duality of life not as some sort of problem that needs to be handled but as the cornerstone to understanding our problems. According to the Tao, the moment we recognize beauty is the moment we understand ugliness. The moment we recognize good is the moment we understand evil, and the moment we recognize evil is the moment we understand good.

If everyone is right then no one is wrong, and yet experience shows us that this idea smacks of contradiction. Eastern philosophy seems to be much more at ease with contradictions than Western philosophy. Indeed, Ayn Rand insists that there are no contradictions and when confronted with one we should check our premise. I have long found this advice to be useful, but unlike Rand who had no kind things at all to say about Zen and other Eastern thought, I also find the embrace of duality to be useful.

The thing about this duality, however, is that it does not mean that we must surrender our own point of view to some sort of group think or collective, and certainly not to mindlessness. Rand's problem with Zen lies in the translation of the word she was given, which she understood to mean "no thought". This fascinates me because my understanding of the word Zen in translation is "the way of the small thought" which implies a sort of focus that Rand actually advocates.

Was Rand too much of an ideologue? Possibly. I am constantly accused of being too much of an ideologue, but here's the thing; I can embrace the duality between communism and capitalism without surrendering my own right to property. Pierre-Joseph Proudhon declared that all property is theft, but when I wake up in a morning with an itchy spider bite, I do not lament this and despair in wonder as to why that spider hates me so, I understand it came down to property dispute and the right to defend ones property. I will generally be grateful that the dispute was not with a Brown spider or Black Widow and remain confident that if this spider insists on dragging the dispute on I will ultimately - with a rolled up newspaper - have the winning hand. Does this make me an ideologue or just someone tired of being bit by a spider?



That makes you a control freak with no regard for print media!



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 10:42 PM
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Originally posted by Jameela
But it is the people who believe I am a threat, who are a threat to my existence... I fear them because I have had a gun to my head, because I have been threatened with physical violence simply for breathing and no other reason.


I could never see myself doing this to someone, Jameela. It has honestly only been my own fear that someone else was going to do this to me.

I said to nusnus once, that I've considered going to a local mosque here, and if they would accept a price that I could afford, actually starting to pay the Jizyah.

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
-- Qu'ran 9:29

I do believe that, based on what I've read about comparitive reproductive rates, that we are eventually going to see a global Islamic majority; but rather than wanting to riot or engage in violence, I think the main reason why this has occupied so much of my thinking, is because I know that I am going to need to find a way to co-exist with Muslims, without either converting or being killed by them. The Jizyah seems to be the only means within Islamic theology, at least that I know of, for being able to do that.

I also know, that you, nusnus, and baloyi are three people here who do not advocate violence or aggressive evangelism, and I accept that. My problem is not with people like you. It is with the fact that the Salafist/Wahabbist or other extremists do exist, and that the moderate Islamic population, although they are there, do not seem to be willing to do anything about the radicals' dominance.

You once said to me that as non-Muslims, we should not say anything about the radicals' behaviour, but that it was something that moderates would deal with themselves. I would be prepared to accept that, if I thought that moderate Muslims really were either willing or capable to hold the radicals back. That is not what the Qu'ran itself tells you to do, however, and it is also not what I am seeing.

The problem is that in a way, the Qu'ran is really two books. In the earlier part of it, Mohammed says that there is to be no compulsion in religion, and the overall tone seems to be a lot more moderate. Then, however, it becomes a lot more radical in the latter half, and the concept of abrogation is used as a means of justifying that. So if the first half says that there is to be no compulsion, but the second half says to murder the infidels wherever you find them, then it is the latter passage which is considered legitimate.

I believe that it is actually the earlier section of the book which is spiritually legitimate, and that the second half was likely written by sources other than Mohammed himself, who did so for political reasons, and who came up with abrogation as a concept to mislead people. It is not a problem that is exclusive to Islam; the Bible in places displays evidence of Church modification, as well.
edit on 3-4-2012 by petrus4 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 10:54 PM
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I've heard this argument before. There is an us and them really quite a few them. The them is broken into 2 category's
1)The intelligent rulers and mass manipulators
2)The ignorant immoral masses

I believe in pointing the finger at yourself first and fix yourself sadly the world doesn't follow just because your learning and growing. Them still looms and I renounce repudiate and rebuke them and their ilk.
I long to stand among my true brethren as few and far between as they may be. Thanks ATS.



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 10:57 PM
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Originally posted by ISHAMAGI


I believe in pointing the finger at yourself first and fix yourself sadly the world doesn't follow just because your learning and growing.


I believe pointing a finger,ALWAYS has three, pointing back at you.



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 12:44 AM
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reply to post by petrus4
 


Sometimes there is an external threat, sometimes there is an internal threat. The truth of the matter is that we live in a times in which many different threats exist all at once. Some real, while others only real in our imaginations. It is a mechanism I suspect of hiding the real ones behind fake ones.

But to say that communist's, globalist's and other groups that historically and even to this day call for the deaths of millions are not a threat is absurd. To call a spade a spade is no sin.

This time is different, in the past it was mostly lies that where spread about Group B to make Group A hate them. Now Group B is being instigated to commit actions that would justly make Group A loathe them for it. It is all in all a damnable situation.

As for Islam, if it ever becomes an absolute "them or us" situation, I have no moral qualms with seeing Islam become extinct. I will pay no tribute, nor would I tolerate muslim arrogance. I will never allow my homeland to fall into a Caliph, I am no Byzantine coward(but as long as they stay on their side of the fence I really don't care what they do).

As per "not judging Islam based upon a few thousand", I worked in a kind of customer service type job. I dealt with many different types of people. Priest's, Ministers, Rabbi's and Imams. Without exception, every single Islamic holy person(Imam) was a liar. Granted it was under 10, but even Priest's, Ministers or Rabbi's that I felt didn't like me much(or thought themselves superior), were still truthful in their dealings with me.
edit on 4-4-2012 by korathin because: (no reason given)

edit on 4-4-2012 by korathin because: their and there error-fixed



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 01:05 AM
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The thread has lost focus. My fault.
edit on 4-4-2012 by petrus4 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 06:09 AM
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I agree with much of what you said, although I would like to add;

Many people use religion, but not for the right reasons, this is in all religions, Islam is not alone in this category of having the good and the bad people who claim to be followers of Islam.

I am not defending the bad, I am just trying to state fact. Maybe Christians hide their bad better, maybe Muslims do, but there are good and bad people everywhere. And to place blame on all Muslims is incorrect thinking.

There is nothing to defend yourself from concerning Muslims, the large part of us (greater than a billion people) only want to live in our lands in peace, we would like to do business with the west, but we do not feel a need to become like you, as we are a different people.

This world seems to be getting smaller, and we are dealing with cultures other than our own. But we must always keep an open mind, and not focus our attention on only the bad in one another, but begin to look at one another as human beings. Muslims have to also, this is not only a criticism of you, we all have to stop judging the other based on only bad aspects, but learn to deal with one another as people.

We all have a common enemy, however, that is those who want us to hate and fear one another so they can control us in total. We cannot give into lies, or one sided views... or we will find ourselves in a world no one is able to live. Fear cannot rule, hate cannot rule, war and killing cannot rule.

All cultures and religions and belief systems must stop all this hatred, violence and killing in the name of others. We must stop to consider we have more in common than not, and that our ignorance and sensitivities are being used for the benefit of others. We have to stop to consider what is really right and really wrong.

Al-Jazeera recently was caught capturing people, forcing them to say lies on air, then murdering them, then placing the blame on the murders onto a group for sake of hating that group. For the sake of lies against a people. The media is no longer telling us the truth, they are spreading whatever their handlers want spread. And that is hate, ignorance, and fear, for the sake of wars so that others will benefit.

It HAS to end. Only we can end it.
edit on 4-4-2012 by Jameela because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 08:07 AM
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Originally posted by Jameela

I agree with much of what you said, although I would like to add;

Many people use religion, but not for the right reasons, this is in all religions, Islam is not alone in this category of having the good and the bad people who claim to be followers of Islam.

I am not defending the bad, I am just trying to state fact. Maybe Christians hide their bad better, maybe Muslims do, but there are good and bad people everywhere. And to place blame on all Muslims is incorrect thinking.


I used to be Christian, Jameela. I left that religion in 2007. I was treated very badly by many Christians, to the point where I couldn't actually stand it any more. So I know it isn't just Islam that is the problem.

America's rulers are using Islam as a means of keeping people divided. It is part of a sick political theory in the West...one that Hitler and Mussolini believed...that a country supposedly has to have a foreign enemy, in order to keep the people in a country united and at peace with each other. The same people who believe that idea...fascists...also believe that a country needs to be in a state of perpetual war, because war is the only thing they know of, that can propel a country's economy to that degree. I think this idea is sick, and I do not agree with it myself, as mentioned. I am just describing what I've learned about it.

The Communists in Russia were used by the Americans for that purpose during the Cold War; and unfortunately, now it's Islam's turn. I've heard rumours that when Islam is no longer being used as a bogeyman, the American government are actually going to make up lies about an extraterrestrial race, and use that as a target for people to be afraid of and make war with, next.

There is nothing to defend yourself from concerning Muslims, the large part of us (greater than a billion people) only want to live in our lands in peace, we would like to do business with the west, but we do not feel a need to become like you, as we are a different people.


Muslims have to also, this is not only a criticism of you, we all have to stop judging the other based on only bad aspects, but learn to deal with one another as people.


One area where I think Western society could learn something positive from Islam, is in terms of moral discipline. Americans put a high value on freedom, or claim to; but that also means that they tend to do things which they shouldn't. Their society can be very corrupt.

I don't believe in floggings as a punishment for certain things, but at the same time, I think some people should try harder to remember that with freedom, is supposed to go some moral responsibility. Being free still shouldn't necessarily mean that you get to do literally whatever you like, because some things are not good for us. At the same time, though, I do not believe that that is something which a government should impose on people, because then you get the government itself becoming corrupt. It is a difficult issue.

This is especially true for things like alcohol, because although alcohol is considered haraam for Muslims, there is another religion (Asatru) for which alcohol is actually considered very holy. Marijuana is considered a sacrament for some religions such as the Rastafarians, and a number of different American Indian groups use a number of different hallucinagens as part of their religions as well.

On the other hand, I also feel that the practice of having to slaughter animals in a specific way, (rendering them halal) is a very positive thing. I eat meat sometimes, but it is very difficult for me, because with factory farming and a lot of other things these days, it is difficult to get meat which I know is definitely going to be healthy, or safe for me to eat.

I went and stayed with a Muslim man who was teaching a permaculture course last year, and he not only bred chickens, but he performed halal slaughters of two of them, and we watched him do it. I felt very secure about eating that, because he said that as well as slaughtering them in the right way, he was careful to make sure that their breed genetics were safe, as well.

So I do not consider Islam to be an entirely negative belief system, at all. There are elements that I am in agreement with.



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