ORIGINAL POST - - in case anyone is interested.

Why Are So Many People Debating About Gay Marriages? You've All Got It All Wrong!

Gay marriage is not a right, and neither is a straight marriage....period!
How can a man-made institution be a human right?
That's like saying owning an Xbox is a human right

It should be up to the church to decide, and different churches can have different opinions.
And hey guess what, gay churches can open up too, private ones that is.

It's not the role of govt. to tell you who you can't marry
But wait... don't agree with me just yet, because it's also not the role of govt. to tell you who YOU CAN marry either.

So the entire debate becomes a non-issue, and so much energy is being wasted on it

My position is: Equal Rights is a Human Right.

If part of that government already has that Right - - - it is unconstitutional for ALL not to have that Right.

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The separate subject of who should marry you and government involvement - - - is not relevant to Equal Rights of a Right already existing.

Originally posted by newsoul
It is very sad that children would commit suicide because someone voiced their opinion.


There has to be underlying issues. Self worth is not defined by how much you weigh, sexual orientation, the color of your skin or if you are religious or not. Self worth is something that is instilled in you by your parents or guardians and no one can take that away from you, unless you allow them too. No one can make you feel inferior, unless you allow them too.

It's hard to understand the severity and pain of discrimination until you've been on the receiving end. Self worth is comprised of many factors, and key amongst them is acceptance (or rejection) by others.

We can all claim that we're strong and capable of enduring the adversities thrown in our path, but the difficulties some face are admittedly much greater than that which the average human will ever have to deal with. It's hard to believe your life has worth when others deny your sexuality, or stand in your way of loving the person of your choice. How hard would it be to hear others talk about you in that fashion, gossip to their children about how your natural choices are wrong or immoral, and being unable to defend yourself except for conversations like this?

Originally posted by ~Vixen~
It's hard to understand the severity and pain of discrimination until you've been on the receiving end. Self worth is comprised of many factors, and key amongst them is acceptance (or rejection) by others.

Some are having difficulty with the little bit of strong opposition in this thread.

Imagine if they had to live with it in real life every single day.

Homophobes are the weirdest people around. Honestly, it's hilarious. Anti-gays make me laugh. Like, are you REAL? Really, we're actually doing this? I can't believe the ignorance, even from people who say they support gay people. The fear and the ignorance. There is such an obvious feel of mistrust towards the gay community, they are literally treated like pariahs. The microscope is always on them. It's like someone is an alien, because they are a lesbian or gay. It's SO insane.

Homophobia=irrational personality disorder that leads to a fear of, aversion towards and/or discrimination against homosexuality/homosexuals.

To those of you who say you "have gay friends".........no you don't, because if you had gay friends, you wouldn't call them that. They'd just be your friends. For ANTI-GAYS, "gay friends" are tokens. That's the reality. They are a token you can use to prove to yourself and others you're not hateful and you're not holding hostility towards gay/homosexuality. Friends don't call friends deviants, friends don't think it's OK for their friends to be denied their dreams solely on the basis of who they are. Friends don't think their friends are inherently unworthy of particular things solely for who they are. Anti-gays DO NOT have gay friends. They laugh behind your backs, anyway.

Stop whining and crying about how people "attack" you for being anti-gay. You choose to be anti-gay, you choose the consequences that come with it. Stop being dramatic about it. If GAY is an issue for you, then yeah, people are going to mock you, right or wrong. You're not going to be respected by many, especially people 30 and under. You WILL be looked at negatively. Gay people have to deal with this stuff on a daily basis, so you have NO right and are in NO position to paint yourselves as victims. You are not victims, of anyone but yourselves. You choose to ALLOW homosexuality be an issue for you. Well, that's your problem.

No-one gay or gay supporting CARES about you people to actually CARE to offend you. No-one CARES what you have to say. We reject your bigotry at the door. Stop acting as if gay people are out to get you or out to get straights. We DO NOT have you on our minds like you have gay people on your minds. You people are projecting, you're paranoid and you're SCARED of gay people, straight gay supporters, and the gay community. You are ignorant as well. Gay pride parades have NOTHING to do with offending straight people. And that's rich, considering Mardi Gras, St. Patrick's day, Cinco De Mayo, Spring Break, and so on, are heterosexual sex fests on the streets, and straight men getting drunk ON THE STREETS across the world. Straight people flaunting their sexuality ON THE STREETS during these days and nothing is said about it.

Gay people are human beings. Stop looking at them like aliens, stop having insecurities and discomfort about something completely trivial, and just accept people for who they are, and get over it. It's so simple. Just get over it.

With all the complexities that make up each and every human - - Emotions - Talent - Likes - Dislikes - Physical - Nurturing - Beliefs - non-Belief - Interests - Career - - etc etc.

They should be denied an Equal Right because they are: 2 "As" instead of an "A" and a "B"?

Very petty.

To add on what I was saying, people are like "I'm not a fan of the gays" or "homosexuality makes me uncomfortable". "Keep it away from children". Um, stop blaming gay/lesbian people for why you have irrational insecurities. And they ARE irrational, because if there are millions of straights who can and do associate with gays without issue, then that means ALL straights can. If you CHOOSE not to, YOU have the problem. LGBTQ people are NOT the problem. HOMOPHOBIA/ANTI-GAY ATTITUDES are the problem.

It's so easy to blame gay people, especially gay/bi males, for everything because they're viewed as weak. That's the reality here. Atheists are allowed to marry without anyone speaking out against it, so clearly, this has nothing to do with religion. It has nothing to do with gay/lesbian people flaunting their sexuality since most gay people actually go out of their way to HIDE it for fear of being bashed. What this is really about is control, and the reality a lot of straight people out there have fooled themselves into believing they're better than LGBTQ people, and that because they are the "majority", they can dictate the rules and lives of LGBTQ citizens. This is all about power. And as gay people, especially gay men, are seen as weak, powerless, and ineffectual, it's easy to take advantage of them. Gay people, particularly gay men, aren't respected. This is why we still have ballot initiatives trying to steal rights away unconstitutionally from LGBTQ citizens. Because homosexual persons and homosexuality in general is NOT RESPECTED by society at large. This is why the f-bomb has become a general slur. In fact, words like "r*pe" and "c*nt" have become normalized as well because WOMEN are also not respected and these two things are connected. Because we live in a patriarchal society. Feminism=weakness. Whenever gay people speak out against being called names, or slurs that are connected to them being used as pejoratives, they're considered whiners, but when a black person does it, they're strong and brave. When a Muslim does it, they're brave. Women are also ahead of gay men especially on this, they're not considered whiners. Gay people just flat out don't get respect, and really aren't seen as human, so therefore, it's easy to dehumanize them. It's easy for society to dehumanize people who really aren't human in the first place. LGBTQ people are seen as freaks TO THIS DAY by large portions of society. That's the tragic reality here. And it's all because they have the strength to be open, and be themselves, whereas most others are paralyzed by fear. It's such a shame.

Luckily, things are definitely getting better, but there is a LONG way to go.

Originally posted by crazydaysandnights

Stop whining and crying about how people "attack" you for being anti-gay. You choose to be anti-gay, you choose the consequences that come with it. Stop being dramatic about it. If GAY is an issue for you, then yeah, people are going to mock you, right or wrong. You're not going to be respected by many, especially people 30 and under. You WILL be looked at negatively. Gay people have to deal with this stuff on a daily basis, so you have NO right and are in NO position to paint yourselves as victims. You are not victims, of anyone but yourselves. You choose to ALLOW homosexuality be an issue for you. Well, that's your problem.

A Big Old Star for YOU.

And I'm re-posting this specific paragraph.

If you need any convincing that gay people aren't respect by large portions of society, look at the several people on this very thread borderline MOCKING LGBTQ teens who are pushed to suicide by homophobia. That's the real indicator of what LGBTQ people are facing, because the truth is, no other group has to deal with that type of UNPROVOKED vile hatred. No other group. It is not fair. It is so incredibly unfair and it is wrong, and I will not tolerate people who tolerate something that harms us all.

Originally posted by crazydaysandnights
I don't have the patience for that.

I don't either.

20+ years ago I worked for a company - - where I was the minority straight person.

Lunch room discussions were a kick

I have been fighting for and supporting my co-workers/friends ever since.

And I am not going to walk on egg shells while doing it.

Originally posted by crazydaysandnights

To those of you who say you "have gay friends".........no you don't, because if you had gay friends, you wouldn't call them that.

Whoa.... Maybe I've been fighting for the wrong cause.

I fought for absolute inclusion, and against alienation of anyone. Now I see that those I stood up for are exactly the ones to alienate me.

~V~

Originally posted by ~Vixen~

Originally posted by crazydaysandnights

To those of you who say you "have gay friends".........no you don't, because if you had gay friends, you wouldn't call them that.

Whoa.... Maybe I've been fighting for the wrong cause.

I fought for absolute inclusion, and against alienation of anyone. Now I see that those I stood up for are exactly the ones to alienate me.

~V~

Technically - - it should be: I have Friends - - that are gay. They are your Friends without a qualifier.

Kind of the same thing with Marriage. Its not really Gay Marriage. Its just Marriage.

NOT - - "I have a gay friend" - - because I'm hip and cool.

Originally posted by ~Vixen~

Originally posted by crazydaysandnights

To those of you who say you "have gay friends".........no you don't, because if you had gay friends, you wouldn't call them that.

Whoa.... Maybe I've been fighting for the wrong cause.

I fought for absolute inclusion, and against alienation of anyone. Now I see that those I stood up for are exactly the ones to alienate me.

~V~

No, don't worry, I'm not alienating you.............my post wasn't made with people like you in mind, I've seen your posts and you're very definitely a solid, real ally who I appreciate for standing up for the good fight.

The problem comes with people who see gay people as a token or see gay people as gay, before they see gay people as human beings. I don't think you do that, but a lot of people do. A lot of homophobes will use the I have gay friends card to justify why they say they aren't anti-gay. The thing is, if you have a friend, that is someone you obviously enjoy spending time with, enjoy their company and like their character. If you have to trot out the they're gay line in an argument, when you're saying things that would suggest you are NOT OK with homosexuality for example, it comes off as that individual using their self-identified friends' sexuality for political/debate points or to build ones' self up, like an opportunist, someone who wants to look progressive and cool and not get mocked and ridiculed. Sexuality wouldn't/shouldn't be the reason they're your friend if that person is truly your friend, now that doesn't mean things ATTRIBUTED to their sexuality you wouldn't specifically like, but sexuality alone? As Annee said, you wouldn't have to qualify it, doing that alone suggests you're using these friends for reasons that are selfish.

But I have to clarify that it isn't meant for real equality supporters and I truly believe you are. And I hope the people who truly believe in equality know who I am aiming my comments towards.

I will say, though, the fact that people are actually going out of their way to not appear homophobic shows progress has been made. Of course, the hyper-masculine bro-douchebag types continue to be flagrantly anti-gay, but that's about it, and those guys tend to be insecure to begin with, which most are seeming to finally realize. Everyone else sees the trends, and sees where homophobia is heading in our society. People would rather lie about being gay-accepting or delude themselves into thinking they are, so they don't feel guilty about being bigots and don't get the ostracism that comes with being anti-gay. That's a somewhat good thing, if only for the fact it means LGBTQ citizens and straight supporters are being verbally attacked less. Now, that doesn't mean homophobia has gone away, it's just a lot more silent and homophobes are doing a better job of framing their bigotry in more logical ways, which means we have to be even more vigilant than before.

Originally posted by newsoul
It is very sad that children would commit suicide because someone voiced their opinion.


There has to be underlying issues. Self worth is not defined by how much you weigh, sexual orientation, the color of your skin or if you are religious or not. Self worth is something that is instilled in you by your parents or guardians and no one can take that away from you, unless you allow them too. No one can make you feel inferior, unless you allow them too.

Are you crazy? Yes it is.

Have you never met a teenager before? Perhaps you skipped that stage in your life? Or perhaps you're a buddist who has reached enlightenment?

The simple fact is you have chosen a side and it is the side which creates sadness, unhappiness and death.

Good going

You want to know what I see in this thread??? No, I'm sure you don't. I mean I am just a straight married woman and I have no right to have any say at all. I should just keep my mouth shut because someone told me that my opinion doesn't matter to them. Wrong answer!!! I won't keep my opinion to myself. I don't have to, it's part of that free speech thing.

This thread is full of the most hateful, mean spirited individuals I have ever spoken too. I have never heard so many horrible comments in my life. I have tried very, very hard to remain respectful to each of you. I now see that there is no way to have a rational debate with irrational people.

None of you seem to understand that until YOU can be tolerant of people that have different views than YOU, you will always be viewed negatively. And the thing is, it has nothing to do with your sexuality, but everything to do with your attitudes. You want people to tolerate your beliefs, but you won't tolerate theirs (and I quote) "No-one gay or gay supporting CARES about you people to actually CARE to offend you. No-one CARES what you have to say." It is clear that you don't care about anything but your personal agenda, and who ever you see as an obstacle will be bullied into submission. I DO NOT AGREE with homosexual marriage.

I have given my reasons for that belief and none of those reasons were hate filled. None of them.

(I quote again) " just accept people for who they are, and get over it. It's so simple. Just get over it."
Have you accepted me for who I am? Have you accepted Christians or Muslims for their beliefs. Have you accepted Baptists?? If you can say that Christians are fools for practicing their religion, I don't think you have accepted them.

Everything that has been stated in your little rant, I can turn around and say back to you, because YOU aren't tolerant. And YOU aren't accepting.

I have listened to enough spewed hatred to last me a lifetime. I hope that when you grow up you realize that your attitude plays a very big role in shaping peoples opinions of you. And, well, if you are already grown, maybe you will reconsider your tactics. Hate spreads like wildfire, regardless of where it started.