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Do you think the pyramid builders used mechanical saw's?

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posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 07:38 PM
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So I got to thinking.....

I know it's somewhat a popular belief today that the ancient pyramid builders had some sort of mechanical saw's that were used to quickly and accurately create the 2.5 million stone blocks in the great pyramid. Some even suggest that there is actual proof in some ancient stone work that all but dictate this as truth, however something I can not just get by is....

where are all the left over shards of rubble? Would not there be literally millions of tons of rubble with similar machine cut sides just lying somewhere? Surely if all the stone were machine cut there would be a mound of rubble with at least one machine cut side that would almost rival the great pyramid alone! And even if they somehow discarded it, that seemingly would be a task almost as monumental as building the great pyramid alone!

Anyway, I'm not trying to reinvent the wheele here, I was just wondering if anyone can shed any light on the subject? Could they have used mechanical saws and hide, disperse, or recycle the rubble without a trace? I'm not sure this specific topic has been digested here yet, although knowing ATS it probably has, however a quick search brought up nothing...
edit on 3-4-2012 by HomeBrew because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 07:46 PM
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Good point. Whether mechanical tool usage or not? Where is the discard?



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 08:21 PM
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Originally posted by emberscott
Good point. Whether mechanical tool usage or not? Where is the discard?


Yes indeed!

Even if it were chiseled rubble there should still be an enormous amount lingering somewhere, no? I suppose it could be thought that even enormous amounts of chiseled rubble could have been spread about and simply disintegrated over thousands of years, but surely large debries with smooth cut sides that would have been produced if machine sawing was being used would still be somewhere considering there should be millions of them...

Either way, have you ever came about anything addressing this?
edit on 3-4-2012 by HomeBrew because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 08:42 PM
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I've always thought the Niles powerful tide
turned some type of device.
But who knows?
However you slice it they make present day
engineers shake their heads with how they
cut moved & fit those blocks .



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 08:54 PM
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reply to post by HomeBrew
 


Debris piles do exist, you just don't hear as much about them because people are more interested in the structures themselves....for example here's the debris pile from Sneferu's Pyramid at Medium.

egyptphoto.ncf.ca...


The Meidum pyramid with mastaba no. 17 viewed from just north of the pyramid. The extensive mound of debris is quite evident here.


As for larger derbis, I would guess that anything usable would have went into other construction projects. Personally, I don't think they used mechanical saws, I think the used something like diamond dust encrusted ropes to cut thru the large stones, but I have no proof of that. It's just a best guess.
edit on 3-4-2012 by isyeye because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 08:54 PM
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reply to post by HomeBrew
 


I guess it would depend greatly on how you define "mechanical"



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 08:57 PM
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Originally posted by sealing
I've always thought the Niles powerful tide
turned some type of device.
But who knows?
However you slice it they make present day
engineers shake their heads with how they
cut moved & fit those blocks .


Very true, it is just mind blowing. In fact, I simply find it impossible to do as we understand it now. And I'm not trying to take anything away from the ingenuity of our ancestors but to simply say "lost knowledge" is a cop out to me. If we can split atoms, send spacecraft in to the distant, and create mathematics to understand quantum physics, then surely we could figure out how our ancestors built a large stone structure. And despite everything I have seen that tries to theorize how it was done, they all come up short in actual substance and practicality. In fact, everything I have ever seen that actually had a group of people try to recreate on a small scale, using every available theory known, have all come up way short and left scratching their heads.

I believe it is said that one block would have to be placed every 2 minutes, 12 hours a day, for the suggested 20 years it took to build, to create. But forget actually cutting, forget transporting great distances, I would love to see a group of people use just the materials available at the time to simply stack similar weighted blocks say just 3 high. Start with a base of 9, second row of 4, then only one to top it off. if they can achieve this in 28 minutes I'll reconsider the possibility of explained creation. But I digress....

If anyone has any info on the rubble, I would love to see or hear it!



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 09:02 PM
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Originally posted by isyeye
reply to post by HomeBrew
 


Debris piles do exist, you just don't hear as much about them because people are more interested in the structures themselves....for example here's the debris pile from Sneferu's Pyramid at Medium.

egyptphoto.ncf.ca...


The Meidum pyramid with mastaba no. 17 viewed from just north of the pyramid. The extensive mound of debris is quite evident here.


As for larger derbis, I would guess that anything usable would have went into other construction projects. Personally, I don't think they used mechanical saws, I think the used something like diamond dust encrusted ropes to cut thru the large stones, but I have no proof of that. It's just a best guess.
edit on 3-4-2012 by isyeye because: (no reason given)


Thanks for posting this, and I guess your right! However I believe the great pyramid is alone in form. If a structure that's small in comparison like what you have posted has a rubble pile than the great pyramid should too, no? Perhaps it was reused elsewhere though, but that raises another question... If they were hand chiseling the stone what could possibly be left to reuse? Would there still not be hundreds of thousands, if not millions of tons of small (think baseball size or smaller) pieces somewhere? If cut as you suggested then there should be millions of flat'ish stones with one smooth side somewhere? Bah, who knows... But thanks for the post!

Edit: by the way, I believe that no diamonds, dust or otherwise, is known to exist in ancient Egypt. I like the diamond theory too but I think it's too far of a stretch to consider knowing they had none, or at the very least knowing we have never found any to exist in ancient Egypt.
edit on 3-4-2012 by HomeBrew because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 09:03 PM
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Originally posted by DavidWillts
reply to post by HomeBrew
 


I guess it would depend greatly on how you define "mechanical"


Very loosely here...

I guess any contraption that could quickly, easily, and with little to no man power efficiently cut the stone to the level of accuracy needed. Mind you, it's been said that some of the granite inside the great pyramid have been cut and smoothed to a tolerance of something like two thousandths of an inch. That kind of tolerance does not happen by accident. In fact I personally believe it to be impossible without some sort of highly accurate mechanical equipment.
edit on 3-4-2012 by HomeBrew because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 09:17 PM
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reply to post by HomeBrew
 


There's probably quite alot of debris at The Great Pyramid Quarry.

edit on 3-4-2012 by isyeye because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 09:22 PM
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Originally posted by isyeye
reply to post by HomeBrew
 


There's probably quite alot of debris at The Great Pyramid Quarry.

edit on 3-4-2012 by isyeye because: (no reason given)


Excellent, thank you! But by the statistics provided by the link they state that the cubic volume of the pyramid is less than 2% of that removed from the quarry. Unless I'm mistaken, I find it very unlikely that 2.5 million blocks could be fashioned by hand tools and leave behind less than 2% gross volume. Heck, even if they were being cut with diamond tipped blades you would think 1 to 2 percent would be left behind in the cut line dust...

Hmm.... Perhaps another clue?

Edit: I know this is a uneducated guess, but if this was all done by hand, by generally accepted ways with copper and stone, I would fully expect to see at least 15% or more rubble left behind, if not more. I gauge this by working with modern stone masons and watching them fashion by hand blue stone surfaces on new homes. Very similar to how the great pyramid is reported to being built, with a type of hammer and chisel.
edit on 3-4-2012 by HomeBrew because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 09:37 PM
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The rubble was used to refill the quarries next to the pyramids. Later archaeologist cleared them out, checking the rubble for artifacts, which they did find. Not sure where it was dumped after that


This is were the three main quarries where



edit on 3/4/12 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)


PDF on ancient quarries in Egypt
edit on 3/4/12 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 09:39 PM
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reply to post by HomeBrew
 


Khufu pyramid
2,590,000

Khufu quarry
2,760,000


That's a very good point. That would leave almost no margin for error when building the pyramids, not to mention cutting debris. It's only an approximate figure, you would think that many stones got broke and had to be replaced.
edit on 3-4-2012 by isyeye because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 09:39 PM
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Originally posted by Hanslune
The rubble was used to refill the quarries next to the pyramids. Later archaeologist cleared them out, checking the rubble for artifacts, which they did find. Not sure where it was dumped after that


Ah, so there it is! I tried searching out the answer but found no conclusive evidence. Do you have a link that states this pertaining to the great pyramid and actual amounts? If so that would be great!



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 09:44 PM
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You are making the assumption that the 2.5 million number is correct. I believe if you check that other numbers have been suggested. I personally go with 900,000 because of the amount of natural limestone hill that was incorporated in the design and use of rubble and sand

I'll post this and go find the pdf that discusses the size of the hill the pyramid encloses

I cannot find a net available copy of the pdf but have made an image of the conclusion






A Geomorphological Study of the Giza Necropolis, with Implications for the Development of the Site (pages 149–165)
C. D. Reader

Article first published online: 9 OCT 2008



Oh and to answer the OP's question, no
edit on 3/4/12 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 10:05 PM
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reply to post by HomeBrew
 




I guess any contraption that could quickly, easily, and with little to no man power efficiently cut the stone to the level of accuracy needed.

Well there we do know they used bow drills.



Mind you, it's been said that some of the granite inside the great pyramid have been cut and smoothed to a tolerance of something like two thousandths of an inch.

First off there are some things you have to keep in mind when people start talking about levels of "accuracy". You can go out and measure ANYTHING and claim that it is "accurate" within millionths of an inch, do you see how that is?
Second these guys were not getting paid by the hour, their job was to get it right. So they had all the time they needed to cut,shape and see if they fit together. If the stones were not smoothed after being cut then it would be a bit more puzzling but the very fact they had to be smoothed tells you that their cuts were not perfect and they were exactly what would be expected at that time.


That kind of tolerance does not happen by accident.

No, they were experienced. They knew very well what they were doing.



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 01:25 AM
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posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 06:07 PM
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You wouldn't really need to saw the vast amount of the limestone 'packing' stones for the pyramids, since it would be split free at the quarry in it's rough and final shape. Abrading and 'razing' the surface was done with stone tools, when the shape of the block needed to be refined. Limestone can be split fairly easy.

Hans, between the rougher, interior packing stones of the Great Pyramid and the outer Tura casing stones there was a gap, wasn't this filled with debris and rubble from the quarrying operation?



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 01:17 AM
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reply to post by Blackmarketeer
 


Not to my knowledge I would think the last stones would be better work to allow the tura to fit nicely. However I don't remember if the limestone finish was made for the the tura or the tura adapted to the limestone



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 01:23 AM
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rubble are you kidding me? what does a saw create when cutting limestone, dust sand! what is the area around the pyramids made of? need i say more?



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