Time to take the gun from the American public!

reply to post by JayFlores


I'm an American. It's my country.

reply to post by captainnotsoobvious


Slow down, Milt, I think we're confusing him. Better use simple words and short sentences...

Look, Captain..

If there are no guns, there are no deaths by gun. Yes. We got it.

SO WHAT?

What difference does it make?

Do dead people care what was used to kill them?

Is death by knife or club or bomb better than death by gun?

Answer the above questions or get off the "no guns, no gun deaths" routine.

When someone is a victim of violent crime, it doesn't matter what, if any, weapon was used to commit the crime.

Did people manage to kill each other (in very large numbers at times) before we invented guns? YES.
Do people still hurt and kill each other in places where guns are controlled or banned? YES -
They just use other methods.

It looks to me like you've lost every other point of your argument - and know it - and are desperately clinging to the one (irrelevant) fact that you know we can't dispute: "If there are no guns there are no gun-related deaths."

I accept and agree with your irrelevant and meaningless point. Now can you explain why you think it matters?

reply to post by captainnotsoobvious

Sigh, Milt, why oh why must you be such a liar?

Yeah, I knew that was coming. Instead of being a "big boy" by answering questions, and presenting evidence, you always resort to the childish tactic of calling me a liar. Bully for you! Would you like some cheese to go with that whine.

You're just a sore loser! Contrary to your username, THAT IS VERY OBVIOUS! Get over yourself! I have!

See ya little man,
Milt

reply to post by Wertdagf

Us "Redneck Hillbillies" teach our kids about gun safety, teach our kids to shoot.

Originally posted by captainnotsoobvious

Where I live now, the populous is disarmed, as are the cops. If a cop pulls you over, they do NOT have a gun. 99% of crime does NOT feature a gun and the murder rate here is much lower than in the US. Yeah, people still commit crimes and yeah, violence in society is inevitable, but.. BUT... the chances of being shot in Ireland or in the UK are essentially negligible.

Imagine that.

It essentially comes down to unwarranted paranoia. I don't fear guns, but I do fear crazy people. People with no future ahead of them and born into poverty will do desperate things to survive. And some people are just plain rotten from the day they were born.

Imagine cops not shooting people accidentally, or kids not shooting up schools, co-workers not shooting up offices... that's Europe. No hand guns, and safer, and still very democratic.... more so than many places in the US.

During the middle ages they killed with swords. In africa they kill with machetes or long daggers if they are not well equipped. One tribe used to go around killing another tribe for various reasons.

In many places where guns are not allowed they use knifes, baseball bats, golf clubs, brass knuckles, bare fists, karate kicks, crossbows, poisoning, voodoo spells, stones....whatever is available! The bottom line is to have as many friends as possible while limiting your enemies to the bare minimum.

reply to post by captainnotsoobvious

And of course, stats say that places like NYC are actually safer than many much smaller cities, per capita.

No they don't, and I have already corrected you on that claim. To post it again is nothing less than dishonest.

New York City's "Murder and Nonnegligent Manslaughter" rate in 2010 was 6.4. Thats quite a bit higher than the rate of 3.6 for cities outside of major metropolian areas.

Hell fire, that's even worse than the overall US rate of 4.8!

I have ALSO seen two people shot, seen a race riot, been pistol whipped (by a coked up white guy - random violence) and have seen many a gun pulled on many a person...

Who did the shootings? If you answer, I'll bet you will claim they were cops.

Were you a participant in the race riot? I'll bet you were.

Why the reference to "white guy"? In addition to being dishonest, I strongly suspect you are a racist too.

Did you experience some sort of brain trauma from your pistol whipping? That might explain some of your issues.

I have no doubt that you are glad that you didn't have a firearm to protect yourself. That makes me happy as well!

and I still will NEVER own a gun. Ever.

Nobody is telling you that you should own one. Do you really think anyone gives a rat's ass about what you may, or may not do?

BUT... the chances of being shot in Ireland or in the UK are essentially negligible.

Not quite... you had better stay out of Northern Ireland.

Imagine that.

There's no doubt that you do a lot of that!

See ya little man,
Milt

reply to post by BenReclused


Good job. This guy obviously thinks hes someone special and his opinion should matter. I say, Stay where you are. There are no guns there so you should be happy. But dont start harping on my right to own a firearm because they scare you.

Originally posted by captainnotsoobvious

That is NOT actually a legitimate argument against the reality that without guns, there'd be no gun violence.

Fallacious argument. It's recursive, self perpetuating, feeds into itself. It's a circular argument, because of the inclusion of the word "guns" in the phrase "gun violence", Of course there would be no "GUN violence" without guns! There would no effect on VIOLENCE, however. The tools would change, and people would continue to make each other's heads collapse.

Addressing "gun violence" does nothing to address the root, which is VIOLENCE. All it does is disarm the weaker souls, and make them easier prey for the violent.

I laugh at the phrase" gun violence". I just can't help it. There is no case, at any point in history, or at any point on Earth, or at an point satisfying both of those criteria where a gun has committed an act of violence. NONE. Never, ever, nowhere. There is no such thing as "gun violence". You might as well be discussing "ink pen violence" or "garbage can lid violence".

Guns are inanimate objects. No gun has EVER gotten up of it's own accord and gone to rape, plunder, murder, and ruin. NEVER. It's a ridiculous phrase, and a sad misuse of the English language. It's very clearly a propagandistic phrase, satisfying the emotional appeal over rational appeal of propaganda.

Your argument is a ridiculous use of a ridiculous phrase designed solely to win an argument without reasoning, by self-perpetuating and feeding into itself.

Originally posted by captainnotsoobvious

Where I live now, the populous is disarmed, as are the cops. If a cop pulls you over, they do NOT have a gun. 99% of crime does NOT feature a gun and the murder rate here is much lower than in the US.

By your own argument, if everyone is disarmed, 100% of crime should not involve a gun there, not a piddling 99%. As you said above, with no guns, there is NO "gun violence". There is a flaw in your logic.

BTW - "populous" is a unit of relative measure, not a designation for a group. A place can be "populous" or "sparsely populated". The citizens of an area are it's "populace". It may or may not be "populous" depending on population density. Just thought I'd help you out a bit more there with your command of English - you seem to be struggling, what with "populous" populaces, and "gun violence" which are actions by inactive objects, and all that.

Do they have night school for English anywhere in as populous a place as Dublin?

Yeah, people still commit crimes and yeah, violence in society is inevitable, but.. BUT... the chances of being shot in Ireland or in the UK are essentially negligible.

Of course. I much prefer getting stabbed to death to getting shot to death. I prefer being beaten to death with a shilelagh or handy chunk of pipe to being shot to death. Those other forms of death are so much less permanent. It's much more pleasant to be beaten to death than it is to be shot to death. You're so much less dead then...

Why is this still a discussion, for every "point" there is against guns, I can think of 5 valid reasons we should have them. to get rid of guns is sheer stupidity.

reply to post by ConspiraCity


It's still a discussion because your opinion isn't the only opinion. Just because you believe something really really strongly doesn't make it true. You know that right?

reply to post by captainnotsoobvious

Just because you believe something really really strongly doesn't make it true. You know that right?

And that's coming from a fellow that believes:

Guess what city is in the top ten, safety wise in the US: New York.

The others:

Boston
Columbus, Ohio
Louisville, KY
Minneapolis, Minn
Portland, Ore
San Francisco
Seattle
Tampa, Fla
Virginia Beach, Va.

According to this list of cities with populations of more than 250,000, New York City comes in at 26th with a "Murder and Nonnegligent Manslaughter" rate of 6.4. That's significantly higher than the average US rate of 4.8.

Hell, you didn't even understand your own source! It seems that you have been "educated" far beyond your level of comprehension. You are much like a parrot that is taught to speak. Parrot is especially fitting in your case!

See ya little man,
Milt

reply to post by JayFlores

Thanks!

Yeah, he does think he's quite special. That, along with his tendencies to post false statements, false accusations, to twist words, and to call those he disagrees with liars, lead me to only one conclusion: He is just a typical narcissist.

Narcissism is a much greater factor in high rates of intentional homicide than firearms are.

See ya buddy,
Milt

Originally posted by BenReclused

According to this list of cities with populations of more than 250,000, New York City comes in at 26th with a "Murder and Nonnegligent Manslaughter" rate of 6.4. That's significantly higher than the average US rate of 4.8.

See ya little man,
Milt

edit on 15-4-2012 by BenReclused because: Typo

Actually given the big apple's size and its multi-cultural style, I find it AMAZING that it is 26th and not in the top five. Cities like new orleans, saint louis, detroit, baltimore and washington rank MUCH HIGHER in violent crime.

New Orleans tops the list probably due to the aftermath of hurricane katrina, while detroit was always bad ass.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

I'm not real surprised.

Actually, when one compares cities within the same state, it appears that the effects of population and strict gun control laws, in cities with populations of over 250,000, are minimal at best.

I don't think I'd blame poor old Hurricane Katrina for that. New Orleans has had a very high crime rate for as long as I can remember.

See ya,
Milt

Well here in Australia we have hardly had any gun crime, and we dont have alot of guns. its only become very recent that gun crime has become prevalent, mostly in Sydneys outer suburbs and related to middle eastern crime/gang wars/family wars whatever. We had a 26 people massacre in Tasmania in the 90's and the government banned semi auto's. you cant get automatic weapons here(the general public) but you can get a permit to carry a handgun but im pretty sure almost nobody gets them unless they require one for their job (police/security). ive never understood the attitude of Americans to guns all i ever hear about is shootings everywhere. as i stated before, nobody really has guns here in Australia, and people are not being robbed and raped and murdered everywhere so i dont see how owning a gun would make Australia a saferm place. more guns just mean that more guns will fall into the wrong hands, its a vicious cycle once it begins

reply to post by BeReasonable

ive never understood the attitude of Americans to guns all i ever hear about is shootings everywhere.

That's because most of the news that you hear about the United States is bad news. Your use of the word "everywhere" also indicates that you know very little about the US. The vast majority of our homicides occur in cities with a population of over 250,000. Those, approximately 70, cities are what give the rest of our country such a high "Murder and Intentional Homicide" rate of 4.8.

Now I'll break the mold and give you some good news about us:
The "Murder and Intentional Homicide" rate in the United States in 2010 (4.8) was less than half of what it was in 1991 (9.8). And that even happened during a period of time that many, many more citizens were purchasing firearms.

Demographics play a much larger role in our crime rate than firearms do.

Concerning:

nobody really has guns here in Australia, and people are not being robbed and raped

1) Total Crime Victims in Australia is 30% of the population (that's 43% more than the United States)

2) Rape Victims are 1% of the population (that's 150% more than the United States)

3) Assault Victims are 2.4% of the population (that's 100% more than the United States)
Source

I reckon Australia is not as safe as you thought!

See ya,
Milt

I'm from the UK and i'm not sure the riots last year would've happened had the shopkeepers etc been armed. I'm not sure it would've escalated to that point, maybe knowing the shopkeepers would defend themselves would've averted the situation but who knows...

I'm both against it and for it, I can see where you pro gun guys are coming from in that you want to use the right to defend yourselves and that's fair enough and during the riots last year I would have loved to have seen some of those idiots get theirs from the innocent people they were robbing, it's just the problem of firearms being more readily available to the wrong'uns in society, and I know criminals can still get hold of guns even when they're banned but at least you're making it a bit harder. My problem with it is, some people would resort to it after a petty argument and that would create a lot of problems.

Personally, I think the best scenario is for guns to be illegal but all police are armed. I may be wrong but at the moment seems the best way.

reply to post by captainnotsoobvious

I'm an American. It's my country.

Though I still have serious doubts about that claim, I will assume it to be the one claim you have made that is actually true.

Considering your overwhelming preference for Ireland, why not apply for citizenship there? Wouldn't that be MUCH EASIER than trying to FORCE United States citizens to adopt European Union policies, and Irish laws?

See ya,
Milt

Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
I may be wrong but at the moment seems the best way.

Yeah, your wrong. If cops only had guns, wow, I do not know where to start with that one...