Time to take the gun from the American public!

reply to post by BenReclused


Here's one of the multiple times you claimed European only states were world wide stats:

Originally posted by BenReclused
reply to post by lacrimaererum

 

I am not in the US. I am looking in. I see a lot of issues.

If that's the case, perhaps you should concern yourself more with Australia, New Zealand, and Ireland. All three have MUCH higher rates of murder per capita than the United States does. I find it ironic that all three also have much stricter gun control laws than we do. How do you feel about that?

See ya,
Milt

That didn't bother you. You claimed it wasn't on that list because it's rate was lower than any of the "top 37" countries.

I then posted a REAL link (a link you quoted as well... so I know you know it exists):

en.wikipedia.org...

That list DOES include the US.

And guess what?

US murder rate: 4.8

Compared to

Ireland: 1.25
UK: 1.23
Sweden: 0.86
Denmark: 0.85
Germany: 0.84
Austria: 0.56

And on and on.

See Milt, you ARE a liar, and a serial one.

You've posted both of these links so you KNOW the murder rate, but to try and win arguments, you post the one that doesn't even include the US... you've done it at least twice in this thread. You've then said the US rate was so low, thanks to lovely guns, that they didn't even make it onto the (European) list.

Then, when you get repeatedly called on it, you try and claim I'm some sort of shill or imposter.

Because, you can't win on the facts.

Facts:

US murder rate:4.8
UK: 1.23
Ireland: 1.25

Something you've repeatedly lied about.


Here's the quote where you claim it's not in the "Top 37":

Originally posted by BenReclused reply to post by JonoEnglish

 

Like I've said in previous posts, every time there is a shooting like this, or a series of them in a short space of time, you will get (probably a Brit) raising the issue of gun control. From our perspective it seems wrong, hence the stance whilst from yours it's already part of your culture.

Your perspective is distorted! Murders per capita: Australia is ranked number 18 (at 17.007 per 1 million people) New Zealand is ranked number 29 (at 5.818 per 1 million people) Ireland is ranked number 30 (at 5.464 per 1 million people) Spain is ranked number 37 (at 0.781 per 1 million people) Canada, the United Kingdom, and the United States are not among the top 37 Source See ya, Milt

edit on 4-4-2012 by BenReclused because: Typo

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Now remember, this list doesn't have say, Haiti on it either, so I guess Haiti, like the US, was just too safe to make the list. I see no African countries either... due to their awesome safety I assume.

OR maybe it's because the stats all come from the "European Institute for Crime Prevention and Control"?

Originally posted by badazz
reply to post by lacrimaererum

 

lets disarm the murderous genocidal totalitarian elitist controlled government, and then i'll turn in my gun too.

Now your talking!!

This is my point too.......for humans to move forward instead of being stagnant, Arms need to STOP!.....No exeptions!!

A good graphic illustrating the world's homicide rates:

chartsbin.com...

The United States has the highest homicide rate of any affluent democracy, nearly four times that of France and the United Kingdom, and six times that of Germany.

m.newyorker.com...

reply to post by captainnotsoobvious


Wikipedia a real source?...

Wikipedia would claim their grandmother was Hitler if it was part of their leftwing agenda.

Wikipedia is known to lie, and post false information regarding certain topics such as Global Warming/Climate Change, politics, and firearms.

Wikipedia is a biased leftwing source...

reply to post by captainnotsoobvious


oh, and btw if you were to READ your wikipedia source they include the following...

Intentional homicide may or may not include infanticide, assisted suicide or euthanasia.

Intentional homicide demographics are affected by changes in trauma care, leading to changed lethality of violent assaults, so the intentional homicide rate may not necessarily indicate the overall level of societal violence.[2] They may also be underreported for political reasons.[3][4]

Another problem for the comparability of the following figures is that some data may include attempts. In general the values in this list should not include attempts except it is mentioned otherwise.
...

en.wikipedia.org...

So the number may include infanticide, assisted suicide or euthanasia. I wonder if abortion is also included as it would be part of infanticide...

These numbers of course does not represent the number of people killed by firearms, yet people like you would like to twist facts for YOUR agenda...

Originally posted by lacrimaererum
The only excuse that is wheeled out time and again is, 'its part of our constitution' or protect ourselves from the government. What a joke.

That IS a good reason not to take away our right to bear arms. It's part of our constitution and we have a right to protect ourselves. If you take away our protection, then the only people who will have the weapons are the criminals who will get them anyways.

The fact that so many people gave you stars for your opening post just sickens me.

.

45 pages in - A question for those discussing homicide rates.

Out of curiosity, are people just comparing homicide rates from country to country, or is that back and forth tied into US gun laws and the impact they have on the homicide rate?

Reason I ask is the total homicide numbers for the United States are not all gun related homicides.

As far as those rates go I don't think its taking into account population when compared. The other factor is the wikipedia source. The first part of the page warns people that the stats are based on homicides, with the defintion of what an actual homicide is being country specific.

The other thing to take into account, and it ties into the above comment, in the United States homicide is applied to all groups. If a person kills another person, if a police officer shoots and kills and individual and if a person on death row is executed, they are all classified under our system as a homicide.

We would need to use the FBI UCR's for a breakdown in terms of total number of homicides, number of those homicides that are ruled homicide - self defense (civilian and law enforcement) and finally homicide - court conviction result capital punishment.

Or is the discusison based solely on comparison of total numbers? If thats the case then we would need to find out, country by country, on what their domestic laws are for classification of a death.

Also, guns do not kill people - people kill people.

Don't you people ever get tired of losing? You are not getting Americans to disarm, it aint gonna happen. First off, most Americans really don't give a flip about what Europeans think about our rights, I know I don't, because it is none of your business really. The media seems to like to paint Americans as 19th century cowboys just running around settling all disputes with a gunfight at high noon. Sorry, that dog won't hunt.

The blame the guns people seriously need to go see a doctor, an inanimate object can not cause anything. Do you blame forks for fat people? Pencils for bad spelling? Books for morons? Humans are always going to fight, and if it were guns, it would baseball bats, knives, clubs, blackjacks, rolled up magazines, insert a weapon here.

The reason the second amendment is there, is to insure that Americans have the right to keep and bear arms, not only for personal protection from criminals, but also from the government. It was stated in the letters between the founding fathers and other documents, that this was the intention. So that our government could not become as oppressive as the British crown was at the time. Remember the 4 boxes of liberty, the 4 boxes by which the American people can retain their liberties, the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box and the ammo box. All of our rights hinge on those 4 boxes, without one of those the rest can tumble into memory. Freedom of speech, elections, the right to address the government for redress of grievances and the second amendment the entire republic rests on those 4 boxes. So for all of you gun grabbing lunatics, step off and leave us be.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

The fact that so many people gave you stars for your opening post just sickens me.

edit on 4/6/2012 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)

all i can do is ask you to read the rest of my posts in the thread. i try to explain my reasoning behind this.

it does appear most people have absolutely no interest in reading the thread. most people are reading the opening post and then posting their comment. this so obvious because the majority of the comments are being replicated over and over.

as a result of this the thread is pretty terrible. practically no one is interested in dicussing why i would love to see the US society give up its arms. any input i give just results in the same statistics thrown at me and gun owner 'catchphrases'.

i have no problem in admitting now that i have been stupid for thinking that the human race may be advancing enough to realise that society would be better if it wasn't armed. a society were your kids can go to school without worrying about if they will be shot dead by another classmate.

i will just go back and crawl under the rock from which i was stupid enough to crawl out from. there are quite a number of rather silly threads appearing as a result of this one and it is just a little sad that people have being so upset by the suggestion I presented in the OP. This thread was never intended as a personal attack on anyone yet so many particpants seem to have taken it as one. The threads purely opened as a reaction to this merely come across as childish immature behaviour and I never wished to be responsible for behaviour like that on ATS. I am truly sorry. I am finding more and more that there is seems to be no hope left for this planet and its 7billion humans.

If I have offended you I sincerely apologise.
Thank you.

I just happened to be flipping channels on the T.V. when I noticed In-session has a trial on that some of you may find interesting..
This is what happens when the people have guns that don't know the safety rules. Total tragedy.

Originally posted by 4hero
I'm from the UK, we dont have guns here like you do, and gun grime is relatively low, generally isolated to criminal use.

Is America that unsafe that you all feel the need to have guns?

This is a serious question, just trying to understand the need for guns in your country?

As I said before, I have not been in a car accident since 1987.

Yet I still wear my seatbelt and put my kids in a car seat, even for the 15mph 3 block drive to school. I also paid extra for the side curtain airbags, traction control, anti-lock brakes and stability control.

Do I do this because I'm paranoid?

Or am I just being thoughtful and responsible.

The world is full of all kinds of people, and in today's trying times there is always the possibility of someone snapping and going on a spree.

Is it a great chance? No. But neither is the chance that I'll be in a serious car accident.

If they take away my guns I'll just get some more hairspray and a bushel of potatoes for my potato gun.

Originally posted by lacrimaererum

i have no problem in admitting now that i have been stupid for thinking that the human race may be advancing enough to realise that society would be better if it wasn't armed.

You have failed to put forth a convincing argument to that effect. What one sees as an "advance", another sees as a "regression". There was once a time before guns ever existed. People still killed each other off with some degree of regularity.

a society were your kids can go to school without worrying about if they will be shot dead by another classmate.

I already live in such a society - the United States. My kids do not now, nor ever have they, consumed themselves with fear of getting shot at school. Spectacular and spun up news articles do not a way of life make.

If I have offended you I sincerely apologise.
Thank you.

I, for one, have not been "offended" by you. You may do as you please regarding gun ownership. Buy or do not buy, carry or do not carry, hang one on the wall or do not hang one on the wall. It makes no difference to me. I only ask that I be extended the same consideration - to be allowed to think for myself, and look out for my self in whatever way I see fit, rather than by a legislative fiat.

45 pages of back and forth arguing. "Ban guns altogether" says one side, and then "I want total liberty with guns" says the other side. What happened to the middle ground?

When faced with total opposites I will say "I want total liberty with guns" simply because you can't trust a backstabbing government run by corporations and influenced by the devil.

The day people give up their guns will be the day tyranny is completed.

Voting means nothing, free speach by msm is becoming more rare than diamonds, and the judicial system can't make a correct decision if it contemplated for years.

Originally posted by captainnotsoobvious
reply to post by BenReclused

 

Here's one of the multiple times you claimed European only states were world wide stats:

Originally posted by BenReclused
reply to post by lacrimaererum

 

I am not in the US. I am looking in. I see a lot of issues.

If that's the case, perhaps you should concern yourself more with Australia, New Zealand, and Ireland. All three have MUCH higher rates of murder per capita than the United States does. I find it ironic that all three also have much stricter gun control laws than we do. How do you feel about that?

See ya,
Milt

That didn't bother you. You claimed it wasn't on that list because it's rate was lower than any of the "top 37" countries.

I then posted a REAL link (a link you quoted as well... so I know you know it exists):

en.wikipedia.org...

That list DOES include the US.

And guess what?

US murder rate: 4.8

Compared to

Ireland: 1.25
UK: 1.23
Sweden: 0.86
Denmark: 0.85
Germany: 0.84
Austria: 0.56

And on and on.

See Milt, you ARE a liar, and a serial one.

You've posted both of these links so you KNOW the murder rate, but to try and win arguments, you post the one that doesn't even include the US... you've done it at least twice in this thread. You've then said the US rate was so low, thanks to lovely guns, that they didn't even make it onto the (European) list.

Then, when you get repeatedly called on it, you try and claim I'm some sort of shill or imposter.

Because, you can't win on the facts.

Facts:

US murder rate:4.8
UK: 1.23
Ireland: 1.25

Something you've repeatedly lied about.


Here's the quote where you claim it's not in the "Top 37":

Originally posted by BenReclused reply to post by JonoEnglish

 

Like I've said in previous posts, every time there is a shooting like this, or a series of them in a short space of time, you will get (probably a Brit) raising the issue of gun control. From our perspective it seems wrong, hence the stance whilst from yours it's already part of your culture.

Your perspective is distorted! Murders per capita: Australia is ranked number 18 (at 17.007 per 1 million people) New Zealand is ranked number 29 (at 5.818 per 1 million people) Ireland is ranked number 30 (at 5.464 per 1 million people) Spain is ranked number 37 (at 0.781 per 1 million people) Canada, the United Kingdom, and the United States are not among the top 37 Source See ya, Milt

edit on 4-4-2012 by BenReclused because: Typo

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Now remember, this list doesn't have say, Haiti on it either, so I guess Haiti, like the US, was just too safe to make the list. I see no African countries either... due to their awesome safety I assume.

OR maybe it's because the stats all come from the "European Institute for Crime Prevention and Control"?

edit on 6-4-2012 by captainnotsoobvious because: (no reason given)

Murder rates alone don't tell us anything. Do you realize how many CRIMINALS are murdered? Perhaps criminal activity is more rampant in the USA, perhaps those are mostly criminals being murdered by armed civilians, store clerks, police.. Just spewing a murder rate statistic alone does nothing to prove a point. All it proves is more people are killed in the US by other people. It does not provide if more good guys are killed than bad guys.

reply to post by libertytoall


Not to mention a lot of the murders are scumbag gangbangers killing eachother over street corners so they can monopolize their little drug and hooker businesses.

An armed citizen is a more confident person.He/she feels they can handle things themselves without asking for help and that confidence carries over into all aspects of their lives,thus making them LESS dependent on the Nanny State of the Liberal Utopia.
The Nanny State Ideal requires the people to be more of the sheeple mindset person,weak,scared, willing to go along with anything in the name of safety and the next guaranteed meal/check/handout.
An armed self confident,self aware citizen hardly fits that mold and that's where all the angst on the part of Central Government comes from.Its also why they will seize and capitalize on any new crisis involving firearms to attack the idea of private gun ownership and the "stand your ground/castle doctrine" type self defense laws as well as the Concealed Carry Permits and the easy availability of all types of firearms,allowing the Armed Citizen his/her choice of what to carry or use.

Most Americans in their current state of greed, bootstraps individualism and impotence will gladly give up their guns without any resistance. Similar to giving up of their Constitutional Rights.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
45 pages in - A question for those discussing homicide rates.

Out of curiosity, are people just comparing homicide rates from country to country, or is that back and forth tied into US gun laws and the impact they have on the homicide rate?

Reason I ask is the total homicide numbers for the United States are not all gun related homicides.

As far as those rates go I don't think its taking into account population when compared. The other factor is the wikipedia source. The first part of the page warns people that the stats are based on homicides, with the defintion of what an actual homicide is being country specific.

The other thing to take into account, and it ties into the above comment, in the United States homicide is applied to all groups. If a person kills another person, if a police officer shoots and kills and individual and if a person on death row is executed, they are all classified under our system as a homicide.

We would need to use the FBI UCR's for a breakdown in terms of total number of homicides, number of those homicides that are ruled homicide - self defense (civilian and law enforcement) and finally homicide - court conviction result capital punishment.

Or is the discusison based solely on comparison of total numbers? If thats the case then we would need to find out, country by country, on what their domestic laws are for classification of a death.

Also, guns do not kill people - people kill people.

edit on 6-4-2012 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

Problem is people read statisitics and see causation. But anyone who's actually taken a stat course knows that no matter how strong the correlation is, you can never define causation. This is just more people using statistics in misleading and uninformed way. Not to say that the end result is wrong. It might certainly be that the US has more gun deaths than in any other country, but as of now, I have yet to see any convincing statistics on this. I have been trying to look up, and failed, in figuring out out of all firearm deaths in America, lets say for 2011, how many firearm deaths were with registered firearms, and how many were without. If most firearm deaths, or assaults, are with unregistered firearms, then having stricter gun control laws would be essentially useless. However if most are done with registered firearms, then perhaps there needs to be stricter qualifications in order to own a gun.