Miss Universe and Transgendered Contestants: A Tricky Social Issue

Of course transgender people should be allowed to enter and win the competition. Is not it about the beauty? Beauty is relative. Plus she's a she. She has had surgery, and she did more than just wining about the struggle she was born with and she stood up for herself and made her body the way she really feels like. Does not this earn an applouse? I do not understand how people see these kind of examples of social issues as something bad. No this was a huge oppurtunity for the judges of that competition to show people that what matters is that a transgender girl had the guts to show herself without hesitation because although she has had hard times with her body, she overcome every god damn thing and signed for that competition and WON.

Originally posted by DavidWillts
Being gay was a mental condition that needed therapy until 73. You can be a man but think you are a woman but if you think you are a dragon that makes you crazy?

I swear this argument comes up because of South Park all the time ... The whole Dolphin argument.

It's actually less logical than gay marriage creating beastiality, which is truly amazing ... yet people seem to accept it/find it amusing without thinking.

An intersexed person has a brain gender. We have evidence of this. Intersex people all the time have rebelled against assigned gender. The statistics and research we have collated about gender have a lot to do with the intersex condition, including our knowledge that gender isn't entirely socially produced.

Whilst a correct assignment reduces risks of suicide and depression, an incorrect one often has catastrophic results if left to a late age to treat. We've had all kinds of way of dealing with intersexed people including parents choosing gender ... the wrong choice for the wrong condition can be emotionally deadly.

Now we have evidence of human beings who instinctively know their gender matching with the statistics we've built up over experimenting with assigned genders to intersexed people over the last many decades. We can then apply that logic to trans people to hypothesise that yes, it may very well be possible we do not understand gender properly or where it comes from.

Believe me, a lot of #gender people would take the blue pill if they could. If it was just a couple of years in a psyche office it wouldn't currently be the tragic diagnosis that it is.

Anyway ... currently, your evidence to being a dragon consists of a badly drawn paint picture, and I imagine a number of scientific experiments where you investigate your own navel?

reply to post by Pinke

I swear this argument comes up because of South Park all the time ... The whole Dolphin argument.

I don't watch southpark...

An intersexed person has a brain gender. We have evidence of this.

Wait... So you are telling me that years of hormone therapy can physically alter a person? That is truly shocking.
That really does not matter either, that have tests that can show schizophrenia in the brain, does that meat that they are not crazy because their brain is different?

reply to post by Partygirl


I don't like the idea of men going into womens beauty contests either, especially if theyve been changed surgically. I wouldn't say its because I am a Christian though, I just don't like the idea of men trying to look like women, if you're gay/homosexual, thats ok, but don't try to "become" a woman.

Like alfa1 said, surgery should be banned from these competitions, beauty should be natural.

Originally posted by DavidWillts

An intersexed person has a brain gender. We have evidence of this.

Wait... So you are telling me that years of hormone therapy can physically alter a person? That is truly shocking.
That really does not matter either, that have tests that can show schizophrenia in the brain, does that meat that they are not crazy because their brain is different?

Google the word 'intersex'. Stop thinking that the words intersex and trans mean the same thing. A person can be intersex without 'years of horomone' therapy.

Then read many books on the science of trans and intersex conditions.

Then perhaps you can make your argument more cohesive, or at least make it one of the accepted arguments against trans rather than one of the common logical fallacys against it.

I would not recommend trying to argue against intersex conditions the way you are ... Intersex people are NOT schizophrenic nor are they trans by default. They have allowed us to map patterns in known existing gender conditions.

There are scientists that have dedicated their life to studying this mystery. Do you honestly think you've come along and solved the whole thing by saying 'I'm a dragon'?

Anyway, if you would like to debate this topic with me, by all means contact one of the debate forum moderators and ask them to set up a match. This is going off topic IMO.

Originally posted by DavidWillts

Wait... So you are telling me that years of hormone therapy can physically alter a person? That is truly shocking.
That really does not matter either, that have tests that can show schizophrenia in the brain, does that meat that they are not crazy because their brain is different?

Schizophrenia does not make people crazy, it makes them mentally ill because of differences in brain structure, operation, and chemical balances, a condition that can be treated with medication, and people can lead full productive lives with, much like a transgendered person can.

reply to post by RyanFromCan



From your post

Schizophrenia...A condition that can be treated with medication, and people can then lead full

productive lives, much like a trans-gendered person can.


Only you forgot to mention

SRS [sex reassignment surgery] GRS [gender assignment surgery] this surgery takes

from 4 to 12 hours for the first operation and may include a second surgery that could take

as long again. Then there is also brest implant surgery, facial feminisation surgeries,

electrolysis and more...

reply to post by Pinke

Google the word 'intersex'. Stop thinking that the words intersex and trans mean the same thing. A person can be intersex without 'years of horomone' therapy.

Google the word "crap", "intersex" is a blanket term to describe MANY different disorders and sexual deviants.

Then perhaps you can make your argument more cohesive, or at least make it one of the accepted arguments against trans rather than one of the common logical fallacys against it.

Please post my "argument against" trans or intersex people, and name these logical fallacy's against it. Just stating something does not make it so.

I would not recommend trying to argue against intersex conditions the way you are ... Intersex people are NOT schizophrenic nor are they trans by default. They have allowed us to map patterns in known existing gender conditions.

I never said they were schizophrenic your simple mind makes up what it wants to hear. Please post where i said these people were schizophrenic, do it now.

There are scientists that have dedicated their life to studying this mystery. Do you honestly think you've come along and solved the whole thing by saying 'I'm a dragon'?

As a dragon I don't understand what you are saying. Im sure if I said i was a transgender intersex dragon you would love me. I did not say anything about solving the mystery, please post where i did. Do it now.

I think the root of the problem is that you like to make things up, you are arguing against a lot of points i have never made, you are making up my side of the argument and attacking that. THAT is a logical fallacy. Anyone can do it. I think that it is horrible that you support slavery and think we should start another holocaust.

Originally posted by eletheia
reply to post by RyanFromCan

 

Only you forgot to mention

SRS [sex reassignment surgery] GRS [gender assignment surgery] this surgery takes

from 4 to 12 hours for the first operation and may include a second surgery that could take

as long again. Then there is also brest implant surgery, facial feminisation surgeries,

electrolysis and more...

I was referring to pre-operation transgendered and intersex individuals who are born with physical characteristics of one sex or the other in their brains, compared to the apparent "physical" sex of their bodies.

I am well aware that there is no "operation" for schizophrenia.

Originally posted by DavidWillts

Google the word "crap", "intersex" is a blanket term to describe MANY different disorders and sexual deviants.

So what you're essentially saying is that anyone born "imperfect" or with any deformities is deviant? Following that reasoning, as a dragon you're a sexual deviant too, right?

It seems quite obvious that your presence in this thread is to do nothing more than to breed animosity. How sad it must be to waste your life solely to upset others.

Google the word "crap", "intersex" is a blanket term to describe MANY different disorders and sexual deviants.

Primarily it refers to people who were previous referred to as terms such as hermaphrodite. It doesn't refer to as many disorders or sexual deviants as you're pretending. It is primarily referring to people with biological gender variation.

Intersex, in humans and other animals, is the presence of intermediate or atypical combinations of physical features that usually distinguish female from male. This is usually understood to be congenital, involving chromosomal, morphologic, genital and/or gonadal anomalies, such as diversion from typical XX-female or XY-male presentations, e.g., sex reversal (XY-female, XX-male), genital ambiguity, or sex developmental differences.

Source

I'm not going to go through the rest of your debating points as they primarily appear to be contextual reading issues, or denying your own argument that ... I desire to be a dragon, ergo a person can not desire to present as another gender.

There is zero evidence for your dragon status. Even people who agree with your sentiment in wider circles wouldn't rally behind you on this one.

I could start going into individual conditions etc ... and start referencing research, but this thread isn't the place to do that. By all means, ask about the debating threads, but I won't be answering your posts again in this format. Thanks.

PS - my point regarding schizophrenia is that comparing intersex to schizophrenic conditions makes absolutely zero sense with context applied. I understand you're trying to be somewhat humorous in your posts, but please try to be somewhat respectful.

Originally posted by ~Vixen~

Originally posted by DavidWillts

Google the word "crap", "intersex" is a blanket term to describe MANY different disorders and sexual deviants.

So what you're essentially saying is that anyone born "imperfect" or with any deformities is deviant? Following that reasoning, as a dragon you're a sexual deviant too, right?

Perhaps if you were to look up "deviant" in an actual dictionary there would be less confusion on the matter.

reply to post by Pinke

Primarily it refers to people who were previous referred to as terms such as hermaphrodite.

Primarily does not mean solely. Even your own source kinda of destroys the point you are trying to make. And notice that Hermaphodite and intersex are two different things?

Sax's strict definition of intersex is most relevant to family practice and psychological research. Other interest groups serve different communities and concerns and so broaden the definition of intersex in these fields.

For instance, the Intersex Society of North America (ISNA) definition states that the following conditions "sometimes involve intersex anatomy":[77]

5-alpha reductase deficiency
androgen insensitivity syndrome
aphallia
clitoromegaly
congenital adrenal hyperplasia
gonadal dysgenesis (partial & complete)
hypospadias
Klinefelter syndrome
micropenis
mosaicism involving sex chromosomes
ovo-testes (formerly called "true hermaphroditism")
partial androgen insensitivity syndrome
progestin-induced virilisation
Swyer syndrome
Turner syndrome

Some people (whether physically intersex or not) do not identify themselves as either exclusively female or exclusively male. Androgyny is sometimes used to refer to those without gender-specific physical sexual characteristics or sexual orientation or gender identity, or some combination of these; such people can be physically and psychologically anywhere between the two sexes.[7] This state may or may not include a mixture or absence of sexual orientation.

I'm not going to go through the rest of your debating points as they primarily appear to be contextual reading issues, or...

So you really have no argument so you are just going to ramble on because you don't agree with me, got it thanks.

PS - my point regarding schizophrenia is that comparing intersex to schizophrenic conditions makes absolutely zero sense with context applied.

It actually makes perfect sense.
A guy can think he is Jesus and a doctor can back him up with a cat scan showing his brain is abnormal- he is still crazy.
A guy can think he is a woman and a doctor can back him up with a cat scan saying his brain is abnormal- he is not crazy, he is transgender and needs a surgery.
So if you think you are Jesus and beg for change you need to be locked up in a mental hospital but if you think you are the opposite sex you should be able to participate in beauty pageants.

reply to post by DavidWillts


Firstly.. can I say there's plenty of people who think there are jesus and still aren't locked up? Primarily on this site apparently.
Secondly. I've never seen the CAT Scans of Jesus, but I have seen one or two of transsexuals.

You're debating an issue of development while supplying impossibilities. Is it so hard to comprehend that a transsexual has developed the brain of the opposite gender? It's entirely within our genome to do such a thing. Do you now what isn't possible? To develop the brain of a #ing dragon. Do you know why? That's a non existent mythological species. While the opposite gender? That's theoretically just a chromosome off. And when you sit around and say "Well I'm a dragon" That just makes you look incredibly stupid.

Try a better example the next time you want to argue probability. So sick of the morons on this site that can't see the flaws in their own #ing argument.

reply to post by Miraj

Is it so hard to comprehend that a transsexual has developed the brain of the opposite gender?

Yes, yes it is. Show how this is true, do it now.

David ... you are pulling at semantics and not particularly robust ones. If an intersex person can consider themselves having no gender, then it would stand to reason that they can also consider themselves as having gender. Thus more evidence than your dragon.

This is why I prefer a more formal debating environment, where I define my terms more clearly. In fact you will find many posts from me on this board (and others) discussing the differences between terminology and the confusion that arises from it. Confusion that you're currently trolling over.

Believe me, you don't need to lecture me on definitions, and in a thread like this in particular, I'm not going to copy and paste my thesis am I?

Thank you for your input. If you wish to continue this conversation I'm sure you can find me.

reply to post by Pinke


Why so you can lie more?

but I won't be answering your posts again in this format. Thanks.

reply to post by DavidWillts



I have a question for you. Can you see hormones and chemical reactions in the brain? I mean really look at a persons brain and see the hormones influencing it and the chemicals carrying messages.

Originally posted by yuppa
reply to post by DavidWillts

 

I have a question for you. Can you see hormones and chemical reactions in the brain? I mean really look at a persons brain and see the hormones influencing it and the chemicals carrying messages.

Nope

reply to post by DavidWillts


Then Miraj has a point if the answer is NO like you said correct?