Miss Universe and Transgendered Contestants: A Tricky Social Issue

I haven't read any of the posts here but I wanted to add my two cents in.

First of all who cares. Second of all if you are a contestant you should be automatically disqualified if you have had ANY cosmetic surgery done including dental work. The point I would assume of crowning someone "Miss Universe" is that's person's natural beauty. If you had a nose job, boob job, hair removal etc. than that is not you in your natural state nor is it in your original genetic makeup is it?

This would apply to ALL contestants not just because of this specific case. Judging by that criteria, the transgendered contestant would be disqualified along with any natural born females that have had work done.

reply to post by ~Vixen~


I would disagree.. Who did the public know before Jenna? Chaz Bono.

IMO, this isn't an issue that's easy to get publicity on.. And I would say she's been a better representative than Chaz Bono was.

I essentially stopped posting in this thread because I saw so many comments that were just asinine.. And don't feel that most of the people here fully understood any of the medical or psychological research regarding it to make a fully informed comment. But isn't that typical for ATS these days.

i hate trump even more, he over turned the rules(just so he can get some points and ratings). From what i hear from people around me is that they either feel its not right or think its stupid.

Its a MAN, if you take his cells and clone it, you WILL have a MALE baby. Im not against transsexuals or anything, but there should be difference between Women, Man and Transsexuals!

Where do we draw the line? What if i make myself look like a women and join some women's competition? chances are if its physical i would most likely win.

reply to post by luciddream


Once again my point proven. Transsexuals is supposed to be a temporary status while someone transitions. Not a life long gender. She's legally considered a woman. Chemically, she's a woman. Looks like a woman. I'd say think and act, but I've never seen thoughts and actions which all females had so.. Won't go there..

Don't you think it's a bit arrogant to assume you'd just win a beauty pageant? lol.

...Chemically, she's a woman. ...

So DNA doesn't go into the chemical category?

I suppose a distinction needs to be made between legally accepted as a woman and biological foundation.

Originally posted by ~Vixen~

Originally posted by DavidWillts
Wouldn't accepting people as they are mean no sex-change operations? No such thing as a post-op transgender newborn baby.

That's not entirely true. Surgery on newborns to "correct" sex related anomalies occur everyday. In essence making them post-op transsexual newborn babies.

They were not born that way, so they were not accepted the way they were born so I didn't read the rest of it. I was born a dragon in a man's body and I face discrimination everyday.

Originally posted by Miraj
reply to post by ~Vixen~

 

I would disagree.. Who did the public know before Jenna? Chaz Bono.

IMO, this isn't an issue that's easy to get publicity on.. And I would say she's been a better representative than Chaz Bono was.

I essentially stopped posting in this thread because I saw so many comments that were just asinine.. And don't feel that most of the people here fully understood any of the medical or psychological research regarding it to make a fully informed comment. But isn't that typical for ATS these days.

Chaz Bono is viewed differently, because as unfair as it may seem, the general public seems to be more accepting of female to male transitioners.

Women are, unfortunately, still largely viewed as sexual beings. It's the reason that porn is prevalent, why the media obsesses over female fashions, and why "contests" like Miss Universe still have a following. Men are viewed as being more grounded in reality because of their (generally) more serious/less vain nature.

I'd hypothesize that by virtue of becoming male, Chaz shed the stereotype that transition was about sex, and people were more open to accept him because of it. In Jenna's case, the public perceives her adoption of a female role as an attempt to "infiltrate the sanctity of womanhood" purely for sexual purposes, and her choice to compete in a "I'm the most beautiful woman in the world" contest simply compounds that assumption.

Jenna has brought a lot of attention to the subject of transsexualism, however I contend that the press coverage has been predominantly negative, it has driven away some whose support and acceptance may have been teetering on the fence, and it has reinforced the false belief that transition is all about physical beauty and vanity.

Originally posted by DavidWillts

They were not born that way, so they were not accepted the way they were born so I didn't read the rest of it. I was born a dragon in a man's body and I face discrimination everyday.

They were born with medical conditions that were surgically altered for the sake of sex classification. It's wrong, but it happens.

*****

Deny reality if you wish. I'm sure that sugar coated blue pill you chose to swallow will help to enhance the coloring of your dragon scales.

reply to post by ~Vixen~

They were born with medical conditions that were surgically altered for the sake of sex classification. It's wrong, but it happens.

Because they were not accepted as they were born, thus a sex change operation.

Deny reality if you wish. I'm sure that sugar coated blue pill you chose to swallow will help to enhance the coloring of your dragon scales.

I have been made fun of my whole life, do you really thing you are the first bigoted narrow minded person to make fun of me for being a dragon?

Originally posted by DavidWillts

Because they were not accepted as they were born, thus a sex change operation.

In many cases children are born with birth defects. As an example, if a child is born with a condition known as micropenis, where there is little chance of that child having a normal male sex life, surgery does sometimes happen to convert that boy into a girl. The (erroneous) belief is that at least as a girl he would be able to lead a "normal" life. That child will grow up confused, because his physical sex (now female) is in conflict with his natural reality that says he is male. Shouldn't he have a right to change back? I say YES, but others are afraid of anyone making the choice to change their sex under any circumstances.

I have been made fun of my whole life, do you really thing you are the first bigoted narrow minded person to make fun of me for being a dragon?

I sure hope not. Unlike a person's innate sex identity, your condition can hopefully be treated with counseling.

reply to post by ~Vixen~

In many cases children are born with birth defects. As an example, if a child is born with a condition known as micropenis, where there is little chance of that child having a normal male sex life, surgery does sometimes happen to convert that boy into a girl.

yeah... not accepted the way they were born, thus a sex change operation.

I sure hope not. Unlike a person's innate sex identity, your condition can hopefully be treated with counseling.

Being gay was a mental condition that needed therapy until 73. You can be a man but think you are a woman but if you think you are a dragon that makes you crazy?

reply to post by roadgravel


By some very liberal definition of chemically, yes. But then everything would be considered chemically.

I refer to the actual hormones in her body. If you gave her blood work to an endocrinologist, and didn't identify any specifics about the patient, they would determine her to be a woman based on hormone levels.

Originally posted by DavidWillts
You can be a man but think you are a woman but if you think you are a dragon that makes you crazy?

I'll be nice and vote not crazy... just in need of some VERY serious counseling.

Originally posted by ~Vixen~

Originally posted by DavidWillts
You can be a man but think you are a woman but if you think you are a dragon that makes you crazy?

I'll be nice and vote not crazy... just in need of some VERY serious counseling.

Like i said, homosexuals used to need fixing too until the ministry of truth decided that it was no longer an illness. FYIAD

Originally posted by Miraj
reply to post by roadgravel

 

I refer to the actual hormones in her body. If you gave her blood work to an endocrinologist, and didn't identify any specifics about the patient, they would determine her to be a woman based on hormone levels.

She would still be identified as a man. A man undergoing hormone therapy.

Our technology has not yet reached the point where a person can completely change from one sex to another, but it is coming.

However, none of that changes the fact that she is legally female, and that is all Miss Universe should have really cared about.

reply to post by peck420


No.. She would have the Estrogen and Testosterone levels of a female.

Maybe a bit more, which would probably look odd.

reply to post by Miraj


I will check. I have a friend that does hormone testing.

*holder for update later*

reply to post by peck420


At this point in her life, she'd have entirely female hormones.

Well, she never would have had male. As she probably took puberty blockers then began female puberty via Estrogen at 15 years old.

Originally posted by Miraj
reply to post by peck420

 

At this point in her life, she'd have entirely female hormones.

Well, she never would have had male. As she probably took puberty blockers then began female puberty via Estrogen at 15 years old.

From what I remember , why I need to ask, is my friend and I were having a conversation about tailor made steroids. As he does hormone test for athletes, he was the best source for correct information.

I am pretty sure (not 100%, but he will correct me at some point tonight if I am wrong ) that he stated that anything not made in your body, by your body, could be detected. It was never a question of if, but of how much and how long to detect.

Something about different hormones (of the same type) have different markers from person to person, species to species, etc.

I could very well be wrong, wouldn't be the first, won't be the last...yadda..yadda.

reply to post by peck420


You could indeed test to see that the hormones were not produced in the body. However that's not something they would test for in average blood work (But obviously they would for athletes).

I doubt he would know this specific information.. as it's usually a specialist such as Endocrinologist that would be familiar with the hormone levels.