Miss Universe and Transgendered Contestants: A Tricky Social Issue

Originally posted by Furbs
reply to post by denynothing

 

Because God isn't real.
God doesn't exist.
God doesn't answer prayers.

I was devout for 24 years. DId it all. I believe but never heard God once. I thought it would happen, believed it would happen, and it never did. If you can truly say God answers your prayers, that's great. I won't believe you, of course, but to each his own. Only you know the truth of what you say.

However, if God hasn't spoken to you.. why are you still trying?

God has spoken to me plenty of times. People just forget to listen, and people expect God to do things in their lives, which is an unrealistic expectation. God is real, but it isn't some personified deity that sits atop Mt Olympus and answers prayers like emails. Just because God is beyond human comprehension doesn't mean it is not real. In fact, if any omnipotent entity was within human comprehension, then it wouldn't be omnipotent now would it?

reply to post by getreadyalready


I will concede that God is as real as the experiencer makes him. It is a personal experience, one that I cannot have. For me, God is not real. God does not answer prayers. That does not mean God is not real for you, simply that he is not real for me.

This is not as contradictory as some reading may think. God can both exist and not exist because his actuality is not proven. Think Schrodinger's God. The problem with God's existence comes from others begging to attribute him to things that are more questionable than merely existence.

However, in this thread God's presence is required only in that God either hates or loves Transexual people. Some will claim God loves them, but hates what they have done. Some will say that God hates them and they will burn. SOme say God loves them and they will STILL burn.

I will say.. doesn't matter, they are still people and the subject of this thread is doing a better job than a large majority of eligible women vying for the Miss Universe crown. XD

reply to post by Furbs

However, in this thread God's presence is required only in that God either hates or loves Transexual people. Some will claim God loves them, but hates what they have done. Some will say that God hates them and they will burn. SOme say God loves them and they will STILL burn.

Good point. Those that will say anything on behalf of God will all be wrong.

The idea that it takes extremely invasive, costly, dangerous surgery, plus years of hormone therapy, and psychological counseling to somehow make one's physical appearance match what they think is their inner psyche is a notion I can never understand. Maybe similar to your notion of God.

I don't believe in a heaven or hell, and I don't believe in a punishment vs. reward system set up by any God, so there is no way someone is going to heaven or hell based upon their screwy ideas of sexuality (and all our ideas are screwy, especially mine!)...... however......

I do believe each existence has a purpose and an opportunity to grow spiritually and understand one's self, and one's place among the universe. So, in that regard, I think someone would be drastically missing the point if they spent all their time here changing everything physical about their self instead of exploring a deeper meaning to their dilemma and somehow evolving from their internal conflict. To me, it is just a wasted existence, and they'll probably just have to come back and do it all over again and try to get it right next time.

Who cares, I would not care if an insect ran for Miss Universe. It has absolutely no meaning to whoever wins, does not effect life at all. It is a waste of time to worry about something such as this. There are more important subjects that require the brain power of ATS members

we were born this way baby !!!!!!!

reply to post by Miraj


Isn't that a crazy suggestion though. I mean you may or may not be religious I have no idea. However I have questioned the same thing before. What if we aren't supposed to go to a hospital, or go take an antibiotic because God had planned your death at the time and instead you changed the plan. I don't know maybe I am having a paranoid moment here, but I haven't had anyone else suggest something like you did with the medication example.

reply to post by sonnny1


I am not judging that man at all, I am pointing out the flaws using biblical knowledge. In the New Testament it talks about love and correcting each others mistakes. I am not viciously attacking this man, nor have I ever said a slur towards this person. Nor have I said anything about where they are going other than their belief in Christ. If using the Bible in the proper manner to tell someone about their sins is judging then fine. If someone did that I would listen as we all have a duty to correct our sins. We also have a duty to help someone when they are sinning. If you want to help correct my sins then fine, pull out some scripture so I can learn what the lord is saying about my behavior. However I am not seeing where you think I am being judgmental.

reply to post by Furbs


I am really sorry to the O.P. I have derailed this thread a lot actually with inserting my beliefs. For that I apologize, lets get back to the issue at hand shall we. At least genetically do you agree or disagree that this man is a man and not a woman?

P.S. Do you ever fear that you are wrong?

reply to post by denynothing


One can't help notice the imperfect nature of this world and we must wonder why. Karma, nor the teachings of duality nor the story of 'the fall of man' satisfy when one has looked at the nature of this world and called it into intense questioning. Some say one dosn't have a right to make such inquery but if man cannot question, than man is a slave and if man cannot question its maker, than man is a slave to that maker. And if that maker is against being questioned, than man is a slave to an entity who says it is God yet is so weak and imperfect itself that it hates illumination and that it cannot withstand the inevitable which is inherent in our nature to know who we are, what we are doing, from whence we came and where we are going to.

If children can be born with horriable deseases, deformities and all manner of thing, how can one conclude that a child cannot be born in the wrong gender? And if medicine can be used to save lives and correct our ills, why can it not be used to correct the wrong gender? Is medicine really the devil's fruit in that it deprives God's will that these children should remain with these horriable deseases, deformities and all manner a thing? Or is out of God's great Will and Compassion that Medicine should be that it may ease suffering? Why should issues with gender be singled out then?

reply to post by denynothing


I am not trying to correct your sins,as ALL sins,are to their own selves.I hope I didnt come off that way,and I apologize for implying you are Judging. All I am saying is EVERY man or Woman,on this Planet has FREE WILL. Right or wrong,It is not for ANYONE to criticize someone else,for a transgression,they might feel,goes against Gods Laws,or commands. God will have final say. I will leave that finality,to him,on a subject,like this.

Peace.

reply to post by denynothing


On the alternative side, maybe the medication was gods way of saving you. I have to be fair on that one.

There are some sects of christian's I believe which don't believe in medical intervention.. which are made more famous by those parents whose children die of otherwise treatable ailments.

I'm not really religious.. but I guess I was raised religiously. Which is probably why I'm not religious, lol.

Originally posted by denynothing
reply to post by Furbs

 

I am really sorry to the O.P. I have derailed this thread a lot actually with inserting my beliefs. For that I apologize, lets get back to the issue at hand shall we. At least genetically do you agree or disagree that this man is a man and not a woman?

P.S. Do you ever fear that you are wrong?

I find your framing of the question a bit.. skewed, but I will answer. This person is what she is. I am not medically qualified to make an assessment of her genetic makeup. She says she is a woman, that is good enough for me.

"Why?", you might ask.
"Why not?", would be my response.

Ultimately it becomes an issue that revolves around the willingness of each of us to simply accept and embrace each other for who and what we are. This person, for whatever reason, has made choices because they ultimately make her feel good. Her happiness was not at the expense of anyone else's happiness. She did what she did to her own body for her own reasons.

As for whether or not I ever fear being wrong.

No. I never do. There is a reason for this as well. If Jesus is real, he understands my ignorance. I did as I was instructed and received no feedback that I could use. He was an absent savior and as such was discarded. If Jesus could fault me for that, I find that he is not worth my worship anyway, and welcome my penance.

reply to post by sonnny1


I mean I get what you are trying to say, and your right it is up to god in the end. So yeah, and I'll admit I overreacted to your post and for that I apologize. But, yeah you have a point and your right when we appear him he'll tell us of all our sins and that will be the final answer. Until then though, God Bless.

reply to post by Miraj


I think you are thinking of Christian Science and Jehovah's Witnesses. The Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in blood transfusions, and for a while they didn't believe in organ transplants. All because at least to me they misinterpreted scripture. The Christian Science followers believe only in the power of prayer, prayer has its place but you never know if that prayer is answered by medicine and they just won't see it. Crazy sometimes how you can let your mind wander huh?

reply to post by Arles Morningside


All I will say to that is man does question God in the bible at times and man is always wrong. Then next part I'll say is that you are talking about genetic conditions and homosexuality and gender confusion hasn't been proven yet to be genetic. But then that leaves the question if its genetic then where does God come into play, I can't answer that honestly for you. I know what scripture says and that is a good enough answer for me.

reply to post by Furbs


Sorry about the question I felt bad that this thread went down the road it did and didn't stay to the original topic. Someone earlier talked about a blood vial, if the karyotype for the person came back XY for the sex Chromosomes would you acknowledge the person as a man. or would you still acknowledge the person as a woman? That is the better form of the question.

Originally posted by denynothing
reply to post by Furbs

 

Sorry about the question I felt bad that this thread went down the road it did and didn't stay to the original topic. Someone earlier talked about a blood vial, if the karyotype for the person came back XY for the sex Chromosomes would you acknowledge the person as a man. or would you still acknowledge the person as a woman? That is the better form of the question.

My wife is in a lesbian choir. She is not a lesbian, but they accept her because they are an accepting group. Within the group are two transgendered women. These are not people that have had any surgeries or hormones, these are simply people that live cross-gendered to the social norm.

They are women, regardless of they have between their legs, or what their DNA states. Why? Because they say they are women, and that is good enough for me. Their DNA is none of my business. Their sex organs are none of my business.

reply to post by Furbs



I had a friend who was probably a transman. I say probably because he never said it specifically, but it could have been a number of things..But either way. Very, extremely feminine male. Even before I knew much about transpeople, I nor anyone had treated him differently. Just treated him like a normal person. Normal male person, I guess there is a small difference in cross gender (between two people) interactions.

Originally posted by denynothing

Sorry about the question I felt bad that this thread went down the road it did and didn't stay to the original topic. Someone earlier talked about a blood vial, if the karyotype for the person came back XY for the sex Chromosomes would you acknowledge the person as a man. or would you still acknowledge the person as a woman? That is the better form of the question.

You meet a bunch of new people at a conference. One guy in the back is wearing a "HELLO MY NAME IS Mike Smith Jr." sticker/nametag. You approach this person, and he introduces himself as Larry Smith. You point out his nametag, and he says that the information printed by the convention organizers uses his legal name, however he uses his middle name of Larry because his father was a jerk and he doesn't want to share the same name.

- As you continue your conversation, do you call him Mike, or do you call him Larry?
- Why?

It's nobody elses right to determine who we are. To deny someone the right to identify themselves based on a label or definition set by a 3rd party is disrespectful. The same common courtesy should apply here. Regardless of whether you agree with their decision of not, the bottom line is that as long as they're not infringing on your rights, they should have the right to live life in whatever fashion they feel is right for them. You're free to classify them however you choose, but in their presence and when referring to them, they should be addressed respectfully and in accordance with the proper pronouns and titles appropriate for their self identified gender.

Many people will argue that sex is not fluid and chromosomes can't be changed, but as I've pointed out in previous posts, chromosomes are not an absolute indicator of sex. There are XX males and XY females, as well as a myriad of other combinations filling the gray area between the two extreme sides. It's not as uncommon as most people think.

How do you address this issue?

Option #1, which most people seem to lean towards, would be required chromosomal testing for everyone, thus sorting everyone into two "neat" boxes. In theory it sounds easy, however we would still have many people with abnormal chromosomal karotypes that would run into problems. Unless you've had expensive karotype testing done, you don't know for sure where exactly you will end up. Men who led normal lives but who have abnormal karotypes may suddenly be reclassified as female. If you're leading a normal, happy married life, that reclassification may result in you being in an illegal same sex marriage, stripping you of the privileges you once enjoyed. You see the posts here... do you honestly think that people will open their minds and move past it, or would they classify you as another freak and add you to the list of people that they feel justified to discriminate against?

Based solely on the frequency of these abnormalities, I'd guess that close to a half million people in the US alone could face this type of dilemma. The hidden secret is that in up to 1/1,000 births the anomalies are severe enough to cause a childs sex to be called into question. With reports of hormones in the water and various other environmental factors, I fear the problem will only accelerate. Do you believe that 100% of the parents and doctors facing this extraordinarily stressful test are getting it right, or is there a possibility that a few will fall through the cracks and need to be corrected at a later date? For those that do fall through the cracks, this thread demonstrates the challenges that they may face simply to earn the right to self determination.

Option #2 is a bit easier. Those that are conflicted, after extensive psychological testing and surgery if necessary, should be allowed to transition and receive full legal recognition as a member of their appropriate sex. In this case the trip is ONE WAY, you don't get the option to go back and forth, and the only requirement would be genitalia (even surgically modified) that fits your new sex.

Originally posted by lestweforget
Trans genders are obviously mentally ill and need help, if these types of activities can make them feel more accepted and helps them with their myriad of issues then they should be allowed to enter..........but only on day release from a well confined mental facility.

I would love to hear your thoughts on why a transgendered person is mentally ill. Second, I would like to know why you think these "mentally ill" people should be locked away. Do you feel this way for all those that are afflicted with a mental illness?

Are you by chance disturbed at the fact that had you not known by the caption under her (yes, her) picture that she was transgendered, would find yourself attracted to her? Could your repulsion be more about the insecurities you feel rather than anything actually wrong with concept of someone being transgendered?

How do you feel about a person, a fellow human being who is born with the genitalia of both sexes? Are they neither man or woman? Do they need to be locked up as well for the safety of (your ego) mankind?

Please, educate me, but if you don't mind, stick to the facts, and your opinions on the facts, it makes them easier to refute that way.