Miss Universe and Transgendered Contestants: A Tricky Social Issue

reply to post by Partygirl


What happens when we start having to let androids into beauty pagents?

Can they be allowed?

Weird future is upon us.

Originally posted by viperdave
reply to post by paradox

 

ok paradox, useing clifnotes for and actual fact is not fact, tell me who did that study and when


heres a good study and experiment by psychologist named john money, he failed horribly cuz he belived what you do, heres the history of what this man did to david reimer......................

A good study?

First, nothing in that study indicates how the parents raised the child. This is apparent by the fact that the parents of Reimer lied about his progress. Most likely they were still treating him as a boy. All that indicates is that John Money forced the children into a sort of child pornography for his own #s and giggles, which in turn ended up as simply a traumatizing experience. This should hardly be called a valid experiment. Too many variables were left uncontrolled.

john money worked at john hopkins university, this was a very sad story of how a psychologist belived how a childs sexual identity is environmental and not psychological, he FAILED and david reimer comitted suicide

You are acting as if his suicide (almost 40 years after the fact) is due to this experiment. What you failed to read is:

In addition to his lifelong difficult relationship with his parents, Reimer had to deal with unemployment and the death of his brother Brian from an overdose of antidepressants in 2002. On May 2, 2004, his wife Jane told him she wanted to separate. On the morning of May 5, Reimer drove to a grocery store, and shot himself in the head.[6]

It seems he had much more going on contributing to that.

But here are some more facts for you.
gozips.uakron.edu...

Children learn at a very early age what it means to be a boy or a girl in our society. Through a myriad of activities, opportunities, encouragements, discouragements, overt behaviors, covert suggestions, and various forms of guidance, children experience the process of gender role socialization. It is difficult for a child to grow to adulthood without experiencing some form of gender bias or stereotyping, whether it be the expectation that boys are better than girls at math or the idea that only females can nurture children. As children grow and develop, the gender stereotypes they are exposed to at home are reinforced by other elements in their environment and are thus perpetuated throughout childhood and on into adolescence(Martin, Wood, & Little, 1990).

A child's burgeoning sense of self, or self concept, is a result of the multitude of ideas, attitudes, behaviors, and beliefs that he or she is exposed to. The information that surrounds the child and which the child internalizes comes to the child within the family arena through parent-child interactions, role modeling, reinforcement for desired behaviors, and parental approval or disapproval (Santrock, 1994). As children move into the larger world of friends and school, many of their ideas and beliefs are reinforced by those around them. A further reinforcement of acceptable and appropriate behavior is shown to children through the media, in particular, television. Through all these socialization agents, children learn gender stereotyped behavior. As children develop, these gender stereotypes become firmly entrenched beliefs and thus, are a part of the child's self concept.

A child's earliest exposure to what it means to be male or female comes from parents (Lauer & Lauer, 1994; Santrock, 1994; Kaplan, 1991). From the time their children are babies, parents treat sons and daughters differently, dressing infants in gender specific colors, giving gender differentiated toys, and expecting different behavior from boys and girls (Thorne, 1993). One study indicates that parents have differential expectations of sons and daughters as early as 24 hours after birth (Rubin, Provenzano, & Luria, 1974).

Children internalize parental messages regarding gender at an early age, with awareness of adult sex role differences being found in two-year-old children (Weinraub, Clemens, Sachloff, Ethridge, Gracely, & Myers, 1984). One study found that children at two and a half years of age use gender stereotypes in negotiating their world and are likely to generalize gender stereotypes to a variety of activities, objects, and occupations (Fagot, Leinbach, & O'Boyle, 1992; Cowan & Hoffman, 1986). Children even deny the reality of what they are seeing when it doesn't conform to their gender expectations (i.e., a child whose mother is a doctor stating that only men are doctors) (Sheldon, 1990).

reply to post by viperdave


Lastly,

Some studies have suggested that parent shaping as a socializing factor has little impact on a child's sex role development (Lytton & Romney, 1991; Maccoby & Jacklin, 1980). Other research, however, suggests that parents are the primary influence on gender role development during the early years of life (Santrock, 1994; Miller & Lane in Berryman-Fink, Ballard-Reisch, & Newman, 1993; Kaplan, 1991). Because socialization is a two-way interaction, each person in the interaction influences the other (Lewis & Rosenblum, 1974); thus, parents and children engage in reciprocal interaction, with children both responding to behaviors and eliciting behaviors (Kaplan, 1991). Also, development is influenced by many social factors and children may best be understood in terms of their environment (Bronfenbrenner, Alvarez, & Henderson, 1984).

Parental attitudes towards their children have a strong impact on the child's developing sense of self and self-esteem, with parental warmth and support being key factors for the child (Richards, Gitelson, Petersen, & Hartig, 1991). Often, parents give subtle messages regarding gender and what is acceptable for each gender - messages that are internalized by the developing child (Arliss, 1991). Sex role stereotypes are well established in early childhood. Messages about what is appropriate based on gender are so strong that even when children are exposed to different attitudes and experiences, they will revert to stereotyped choices (Haslett, Geis, & Carter, 1992).

Am I the only one freaked out that this type of gender training idiocy is still a thing?

Miss Universe?

Where is the Cabbage Man when you need him?

If Jenna Talackova is that angry about it, start a transgendered pageant. Miss America always had women who are 100% female, and it shouldn't change just because of Jenna. If Jenna doesn't like it, too bad, start a transgendered pageant. I have nothing against transgendered people, it's just stupid... come on, Miss America and Miss Universe always had women and it should stay that way. We shouldn't have to guess if it's a real woman or not when the show is on.

IMO transgenders have a right given current medical technology, to permanently chose which gender and sex role they sincerely they feel they are comfortable living out their life as.

Unfortunately, in alot of youth today, I see an obsession with their physical bodies and features. Of course for the transgenders, especially, these are taken to the extreme where they simply decide they will not be happy until they are sexually reassigned. As if nothing in life matters but whats between their shoulders and legs or not.

Theres a high correlation between transgender prostitutes, promiscuity and sexual reassignment. To me that not only highlights societies casting out of gender deviants, nor even the excuse easy $ is needed to get the surgery, but an unhealthy, unbalanced obsession with the physical gender - and with sex.

Theres even cases where sex assignment which was done as early as 7yo is reversed later on because the person is constantly confused about which gender they are happiest as. That in and of itself, is the problem, again why base your happiness in life on what you were given vs what you end up, between your legs?

So material, so superficial even taking into account the psychological orientation one 'feels' they are and their plight to be the gender or sex they were 'supposed' to be. But yeah if you're a gay who feels and wants to be more like the girls or vice versa, and dwells on that as the excuse for dissatisfaction with life/relationships, nowadays theres the technology to make your dream come true.

reply to post by paradox



fair enough, you quote some very reputable people, but NONE of them mention anything about kids with problems identifying there gender, the studies were done on normal everyday familys, and in a perfect world we all would be like that, wheres the fact that says a mom treated her boy like a girl at an early age and now he wants to be a girl??

none of those studys say anything like that the real FACT is, doctors dont know why girls wanna be boys and boys wanna be girls all they can do is study them and try to come up with something that sounds logical to explane it


the human brain is too complex to say we know everything about it and how it develops

i can quote transgender studies that say differently because these studies have used actual boys and girls with gender identity syndrome


in todays world a parent can tell when something is different in there child and seek help 20 30 years ago it was shunned and kept quiet, parents didnt want to know there child was different or gay they just hoped it would go away


my girlfriends mom said she allway knew that her son was different, even at the age of 2, i asked her how? what was different? she said she couldnt explain it but she knew. i cant see how she could actualy know but she said she did

reply to post by Sablicious


Don't think of it as a man considered a woman.

Think of it as another woman that achieved their feminine beauty through drugs and then consider it.
Think about it that way and see if you think a transwoman should be allowed. Some pageants have rules against things like breast implants aswell. I know some transwomen take so many hormones that they start to have breasts, but this person likely had implants.

Just saying, if you are going to let them in as a woman they should have to stick to the same guidelines as the other women.

reply to post by viperdave


Well whatever, we'll just agree to disagree.

This is a very debatable topic within many different communities including psychology, ecology, sociology, etc. It could go on for ever.

Peace

reply to post by paradox


exactly, we will agree to dissagree


and you have a wonderfull evening and be safe



viperdave

I think a contest that judges you on how you look in a dress or a swimsuit and how you answer a couple of political questions is ridiculous. To me that don't make someone special, who cares I say.

reply to post by paradox


Actually..

I remember David Reimer on camera accounting that his parents refused to let him play with typical boy toys, and tried to push him into typical girls things, such as barbie dolls. That he was forced to sneak it around behind his parents back. Of course this cannot be assured, as John Money was a very corrupt man and could not have been in the pressence of the home at all times to assure whats right and wrong.

reply to post by Miraj


If that's true then I stand corrected.

I still don't think it's a very well thought out experiment though. Pretty disturbing actually.

Originally posted by Partygirl


Personally, I do not believe Talackova can be considered a true woman in the sense that I am. As a Christian, I believe God made men and women differently for a reason. I understand this may not be a popular view, but it is mine, and I have a right to it.

I also consider myself a Christian.

“Do not judge so that you will not be judged. “For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. “Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? “Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? “You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye. Matthew 7:1

This is the answer Jesus subscribed to. Its one ALL Christians should adhere to also.

Lastly,this is a trivial display of beauty. The fawning of beautiful women/men,judged on their beauty.Beauty comes in many shapes,sizes,and variety's. God is the final Judge.

reply to post by Partygirl

Nor will this person ever be able to conceive and bear a child

wow - so now you have to be pretty, talented and fertile?

:-)

she's gorgeous - I say she gets a shot at the crown

reply to post by Partygirl


Here is what I personally think, many women maybe jealous of the so called "woman".

They maybe jealous because she/he is prettier, more talented, more educated, self-confident, possibly more feminine physically than many biologically born women, so the instant envy, jealous, and hate surfaces.

Either way is it really a big deal?

reply to post by Partygirl


Miss Universe is not Miss America or Miss West. The US does not control Miss Universe.

Most countries in the world frown on this type of thing. The west is outnumbered in this area.

Personally I do not approve of sex change operations, or most tamperings with biology. I believe that Mother Nature gave us the genes we have, and we should love ourselves. That does not mean that we conform to some image of masculinity or femininity. I am against gender-typing. But, I am for love of one's own body.

It is a different issue than homosexuality or lesbianism. I could care less about what sexual acts adults do, since I am not involved. I am against the idea of redefining the human genome or biology since that will affect me. It is a prelude to the domestication of humanity, a process begun with the domestication of animals and the domestication of Nature that has now become the domestication of humans and the radical expunging of freedom as a basic human trait.

What begins as free choice soon becomes coercive. Notice that the ruling classes have always feared sex. Religious leaders go on and on about sex even when religions themselves speak very little of it. That is because they want sexuality contained to a kind of procreation that promotes eugenics. Now since the western world has rejected that they have gone to Plan B. Plan B is about making us gender neutral. It is the same crud, different approach.

I know a lot of you will say that I am hateful or intolerant. These are words. Nature is reality. I don't reject people who are different but I think that beauty contests should not bend to every whim or caprice. Now, should there be beauty contests that objectify women? That is another question for another thread...

Who are we to dictate to anyone what gender they truly feel themselves to be? Despite popular belief to the contrary, a significant percentage of the worlds population is "gender variant" on a chromosomal level. Rather than berate and shame people for being true to themselves, people should try to be tolerant and respectful.

What I find amazing is that this discrimination is being done in a beauty pageant where vanity reigns supreme. Fake boobs, botox, body sculpting and caked on makeup are used to transform bodies into something they really aren't, but a whole body transformation is called off limits. In the end it will come down to which contestant can best show off their (often fake) physical attributes. How sad.

Intolerance against transgendered individuals is a learned trait, usually ingrained by neo-christian religious propaganda. My understanding is that even in "evil" Iran, those diagnosed with transsexualism can have much of their surgery costs paid for by the government, and once complete they receive full official recognition of their new sex by the government. Maybe those Muslims aren't as hateful and intolerant as many of their christian counterparts in the west...

reply to post by EarthEvolves


Wait.. most countries around the world frown on what sort of thing? Beauty pageants? Because most countries around the world have transexualism ingrained in their culture and history. Especially Asian countries. Also India is known to have boys that dress as girls and dance. Most of these countries have special names for them.

reply to post by EarthEvolves

It is a different issue than homosexuality or lesbianism.

How so? What if we started looking at all this differently? It could be that gender exists on a kind of scale - some more this than that - others very much more that than this

In a rainbow it's hard to tell where blue stops being blue and starts to become green. If we tweak hormones in different directions we get different results - and nature definitely does some tweaking on it's own without any help from us. What if someone is born with a female brain in a mostly male body? I realize it's not that simple - or is it? What do you say to someone that so desperately feels they are not what their body says they are?

I remember once walking towards my bus stop - there were three guys and one small - what I thought at first was a girl - but turned out was a a rather delicate boy - about 14-15 years old

The boys were giving him a very hard time - and so the minute I showed up he came to stand by me. He had a girls hairstyle and was wearing a serious amount of mascara

He said something to me that has always stayed with me and made me wonder. He said: I only wanted to be pretty

I've known mothers who had little boys that wanted to wear tutus to the zoo and little girls that never liked dolls

Gender isn't black and white - and these aren't the dark ages. We know things now we couldn't have known in the past. No doubt we will learn quite a bit more in the future

Nature is reality.

Truer words were never spoken - so listen to your own words

I think it's time we all start accepting people the way they are - and that includes the way they say they are

I don't reject people who are different but I think that beauty contests should not bend to every whim or caprice.

Because Beauty pageants are serious business? You really want to make authenticity a priority - at the Miss Universe Pageant?

:-)