Is this a real Masonic Sword?

Originally posted by pheonix358
FYI Real Masonic blades used by real Masonic Branches (not your local branch at the little hall down the road) were superb blades made by sword masters bonded to the Masons. These blades do not generally come on to the open market.

Much of the info in replies is from scholars who should keep to subjects that they are well versed in

Actually, much of the info in replies is from Real Masons™ who handle these blades on a fairly regular basis. You can pick them up at any fraternal supply shop… some are nicer than others, but it's doubtful even a vintage one has ever been used as a "real blade". Ceremonial swords are just that…

The Masons use the little local halls to line their pockets and display a little normalcy.

Go to a High Service at the main lodge in England and tell me the blades are not real. The gold and jewels are real as is the blade. I take the point that you consider yourself a Mason and I do not mean to offend. The top of the Masonic tree so to speak is a little different to the creeper around it. Like the creeper and the tree the two are actually not connected in any real way.

One is playing at being a Mason and well, the other does not play.

P

reply to post by VreemdeVlieendeVoorwep

With that quality of photo, I personally cannot tell you 'yes or no'. If you could get me a better picture I might be better able to help.

I wouldn't use "authentic", but it does appear to be some kind of ceremonial sword. I won't say whether its Masonic or not as I cannot tell.

reply to post by pheonix358

What? So the local Lodges are not real Masons? Please expound.

reply to post by pheonix358

Yeah, that's not how the monetary or finances of Freemasonry work. The Grand Lodges (and the various other levels of hierarchy for the concordant bodies) receives very little of the money going into the local Lodge (at least in my jurisdiction).

Who cares about the blades in England. English Masonry is not indicative of all Masonry nor the central authority (as there is no central authority).

You really don't seem to have a strong grasp on what Masonry is or how it is structured.

Originally posted by pheonix358
I do not mean to offend…

The Masons use the little local halls to line their pockets…

Stay classy, ATS…

Go to a High Service at the main lodge in England and tell me the blades are not real.

And what, pray-tell, is a Masonic "High Service???" And by the "Main Lodge in England", which one would that be, exactly?

Do rich lodges have more expensive decorations? Sure. Do old lodges have old props? Sure. So?

Originally posted by VreemdeVlieendeVoorwep
I was browsing online for some swords to buy, since i collect them, and came across this sword. It is on auction, and i would like to know if this is an authentic Masonic sword, or merely a replica. Anyone that might be able to help?

Here is the link

Blade

Thanks all

vvv

While I am not an expert... Nor do I collect swords... I can say it actually does look like a masonic sword.
I've encountered the type before in my googleing.
Best luck to you on your inquiries.

Originally posted by ntech
Does the red on the blade indicate it's been used for it's "intended purpose"? Aka running someone through?

I would suspect that any such blade would be in the evidence locker of the local constabulary.

Fitz

The sword is a ceremonial sword used in the English Constitution's Rose Crois Rite.

In the bottom picture, the Cross and a Rose are clearly visible, making it unmistakably Masonic.

It's not an English Tyler's sword, as those have curvy blades, being symbolic of a flaming sword...
Tyler's Sword

reply to post by Saurus

I'm glad you have good eyes. I shouldn't look at pictures so early in the morning.

reply to post by VreemdeVlieendeVoorwep


imo the most wicked sword is your tongue... which speaks a very well blended mix of compassion and might. But that will surely do as a back-up plan and last resort.

Originally posted by SisyphusRide
reply to post by VreemdeVlieendeVoorwep

 

imo the most wicked sword is your tongue... which speaks a very well blended mix of compassion and might. But that will surely do as a back-up plan and last resort.

Just last night I saw this quote somewhere, and your post reminded me of it.

If the pen is mightier than the sword, how can actions speak louder than words?

Originally posted by Saurus
The sword is a ceremonial sword used in the English Constitution's Rose Crois Rite.

I suspected our South African brother would have the answer to this!

reply to post by JoshNorton


Haha...

I'm not even in the Rose Croix, but we have a Jeweler in my Lodge who makes Swords for the Lodges and Orders in my District, and he likes to show them off.

They use those plastic swords from Busch Gardens.

reply to post by VreemdeVlieendeVoorwep


Most likely a replica, specifically the stainless steel blade. If it was an older sword, the blade would be high carbon steel.

reply to post by VreemdeVlieendeVoorwep


It's certainly real......and i just bought it. Thanks for the heads up.

Originally posted by ntech
Does the red on the blade indicate it's been used for it's "intended purpose"? Aka running someone through?

It states in the advert -

"The Scabbart is tipped at the top and bottom with brass fittings and it is overall black between these fittings with spots of red showing beneath. it seems as if the scabbart was once red in colour."

The red colouring is simply due to that.

Thats a real nice looking sword.
Found this about the makers-

Toye, Kenning & Spencer is the oldest manufacturer and supplier of fraternal regalia in the world. For Masons and fraternal societies in Great Britain and worldwide the name of Toye means quality and service, and an unparalleled range of products. It is a supplier to the Grand Lodge of England and supplies Provinces and Lodges in this country and overseas. The Company’s tradition is a Craft tradition

Link-www.toye.com...

Another of there swords-www.reemandansie.com...

This one has the same markings on the blade as the one you ask about-www.tooveys.com...

Regards to all

There is not nor has there ever been to my knowledge an "official" Masonic sword, so the question as to the real or the replica is not really one that applies. Any sword designed with masonic symbols and intended for use in ritual is a masonic sword. I suppose something could be real or fake as to it's era whether it is meant to be from the 1800's or 1700's or merely meant to look like one from that era. However every lodge often has different sowrds from different makers, and historically would have been commmissioned by many different makers. Originall when Masonry was "below" ground it would simply have been whatever sword the Tyler owned, as he was in charge of using the blade in defense and security of the meetings, it might not have even been a sword at all, but a large knife or whatever instrument that was available. The very name Tyler is now beleived to originated in the french word to "Cut" or "cutter" this being his purpose in the lodges defense. As masonry went above ground for a time the first symbolic sword was that of a flamberge, or a flame-bladed sword. These swords have a wavy design that mimics the movement of fire. They likely would have had NO symbols on them whatsoever as the symbol needed to be hidden....The reason of course was the symbolism for light, which is a central symbol of man's knowledge and God's providence going back to the burning bush....both within masonry and without the flame has been a divine symbol in Judaic-Christian tradition as well as other faiths around the world.....(see multiple Bible verses on that, I'm sure you can find your own). In a way i wish we would return to that style for these symbolic reasons, however this practice is usually only kept alive in some lodges in continental Europe. In America the sword came to imitate the swords often carried by actual military men from the American Revolution onward, as early on the Tyler was also using his actual sword for his duties rather then one made for the purpose. Thus many American masonic swords look more like a 17-1800's saber, this is most prominant in the York Rite in the Templar degrees where the Templar's uniform is not based on actual Templars, but rather uniforms of military men at the time this body was founded. Also many other swords attempted to imitate the Templar era swords in general design, but not very historically accurate as we now know. Ultimately what would make a sword more or less valuable is more likely to be the engravings, sometimes a Mason's name is on the sword as these are often and still are given to Masons as a token of appreciation for having contributed their time and efforts to their lodge or masonic charities etc, sometimes a lodge might be engraved on the sword as well, and depending on the history of that lodge may enhance it's value. We have given several to brothers, especially long time Tylers. I hope this helps.

More here
www.masonicdictionary.com...

I have seen a few European companies that still make this style.

Originally posted by pheonix358
Go to a High Service at the main lodge in England and tell me the blades are not real. The gold and jewels are real as is the blade.

I just go back from the 'High Service' here in New Jersey, or as we call it, or annual convention.

It just so happens that the Grand Sword Bearer is from my home lodge and he was entrusted throughout the preceeding year leading up to this convention with caring for 'Lucille', the Grand Sword. It is quite old, very heavy and most definetly not sharp or encrusted with expensive jewels (they are low-quality gemstones).

So I guess the question is, this sword is as 'real' as a Masonic gets, having been used for more than a century, so what makes one more 'real' than this?

reply to post by VreemdeVlieendeVoorwep


I rather doubt the authenticity. Not that I have any true evidence for it, but I simply don't believe it. Still, it's an EXCELLENT piece (I've begun to collect some myself), but the price kind of throws me off. Regardless, good luck with your collection.