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Caught Between Incredibility and Contradiction

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posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 01:51 PM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 



If God comes across as "supernatural" its because He did not endow us with omnipotence and omnipresence. We tend to assume what we don't understand as "supernatural" don't we?


Natural is a relative term, restricted by our knowledge. But what we do know, goes against the Christian beliefs of God. I say Source (my term for it) does exist, but we don't understand it yet. According to the laws of nature that we are familiar with, God is supernatural.

Oh, and you say if he is is supernatural, it's because he didn't give us his powers. Well, he didn't...which would make him supernatural, according to your statement.




posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 01:53 PM
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Christians, stop being afraid of dying. What's the point in fearing the inevitable? Also, take responsibility for your flaws. No supernatural being is responsible for your mistakes. You are. Learn to live with it.



Not Christian here, but I have been around enough of them to think your above statement is a bit off base. I get the feeling that perhaps you have misunderstood certain concepts of Christianity.

The Christians I know are not afraid of dying, and they do take responsibility for their flaws/mistakes/sins.....that is why they apologize to those they have wronged, seek to make amends, and go to things like confession/they speak with their pastors or they ask god for forgiveness of their sins.

Christians, if I have misunderstood this, please correct me on this point.



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 01:56 PM
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reply to post by Mijamija
 




Christians, stop being afraid of dying. What's the point in fearing the inevitable? Also, take responsibility for your flaws. No supernatural being is responsible for your mistakes. You are. Learn to live with it.


This is off base?

What do Christians stand for? Hope. What do you need hope for? Hope for meaning in life, hope that everything isn't for nothing, hope that you will be "saved" and taken to a lovely place where you actually have something to look forward to.

Hope in a safe society, hope in a stable government, and hope for a hard-working but peaceful life.

Basically, hope that if you don't find your utopia in this life, you will find it in the next one. All you have to do is believe in the God that these priests speak for, and trust that they know the word of God.

Hope because without hope, all you have is fear and chaos.



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 02:02 PM
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reply to post by Starchild23
 



su·per·nat·u·ral/ˌso͞opərˈnaCH(ə)rəl/
Adjective:
(of a manifestation or event) Attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.


" scientific understanding or the laws of nature."

Well, it depends upon human understanding of how things work.

I could go back in time and demonstrate, say... electricity to a bunch of primitive cavemen.
They wouldn't understand how it works...and would attribute "supernatural" qualities to it.

You and I know theres nothing "supernatural" about electricity.... the cavemen would percieve it as a supernatural phenomena.... because they are "backward".

The thing is, we are "primitive cavemen" when it comes to understanding God.



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 02:09 PM
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We are all convinced we are right. We all need something to believe in. We all want to have something to save us when everything crashes down, and we all want something to tell us what's going on when things get scary. But we have to learn that spirit and science, metaphysical and physical, are two sides of the same exact coin.


I am not convinced I am right about most all things. I have very few convictions but i like options and possibilites.

I am not even sure that a universal "right and wrong" is possible, everyone sees their own rights and wrongs nowadays. But I do agree that humans have a desire to believe in something...anything. I think humans also take comfort in their beliefs because it gives them a sense of security in a seemingly chaotic world. When things get scary we look for explainations and nothing is more frustrating than not having an explaination.....religion offers explainations, science does as well.....they are two sides of the same coin in my opinion as well. I choose to combine both of them to explain my personal understanding of the universe and humanity.

Interesting things to consider, I enjoyed this post!



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 02:30 PM
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reply to post by Starchild23
 


Yes, I see what you mean. I think most humans have these sort of hopes. I think many people want to believe that there is something beyond this life. The possibility that life is a chaotic, random mess with no point is disheartening, so humans look to find meaning in life, and we all do it in various ways. Christians have their "play book" to guide them, which I think is kinda cool, but for me it isn't the only play book and I do not close my myself from the possibility that it really is all chaotic and random....I just do the best I can in life, I think that is how most people are, both religious and non religious.



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 02:44 PM
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Originally posted by Iason321
reply to post by iterationzero
 


You're wrong again, assuming Christians want to wage some kind of holy war.

That is the LAST thing any Christian I know wants to do.


That's just nonsense. You are very naive and must a very new and young Christian.

For as long as I can remember, growing up in a Pentecostal Church and hearing from other Christian sects and listening to them here on ATS, there has been a Christian universal "doom and gloom" longing for war and destruction and the end of the world, called Armageddon.

Even today, the only reason that prominent fundamental Christians support Israel is a hope to encourage a "Holy War in the area and spur on Armageddon, thus force the hand of Jesus to return post haste.


Former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld sent President George Bush top secret wartime memos with cover sheets that mixed Scripture and battle photos to cast the Iraq invasion as a holy Christian crusade. www.cafemom.com...





posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 02:55 PM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


Yes, but it is also by our understanding that we define God at all.

I thought this was all a game of understanding?



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 03:09 PM
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reply to post by Mijamija
 



I am not convinced I am right about most all things. I have very few convictions but i like options and possibilites.


Considering this is meant to discredit me, I will reply to this particular bit. I don't think you are aware of exactly how much you assume to know things, how many times you've said, "How much you wanna bet?", how many times you've judged someone only to find out you were wrong.

Maybe if you took a moment and recalled, for a fact, how many times you have done these things, you would see how arrogant we can be. But when the world begins to go to hell, when chaos reigns all across the countries...that's when we become fearful. And we become greedy. And when enough fear is instilled in a primitive concept, that concept becomes necessary for the survival of selfish people. They cling to it, believing that it will save them.

Don't believe me? Watch Stephen King's The Mist. Every one of his books/movies reveals the depth of mankind's flaws, and exactly how we deal with them. The Mist shows what happens when a group of people, terrified of a monstrous world and clueless as to how to cope, begin to form a cult...a barbaric cult.


I am not even sure that a universal "right and wrong" is possible, everyone sees their own rights and wrongs nowadays.


What more do you expect from a race that was supposedly never supposed to know about good and evil in the first place?

There is no right and wrong. There is negativity, which we are meant to learn from. And there is positivity, which we will eventually adhere to. Negative is the natural opposite of positive. This is a fact. Without positive, there is no negative...and vice versa. Light is needed to cast shadow, and shadow defines light. The concepts of "right" and "wrong" were invented to keep a rambunctious, obnoxious, brutal, and completely selfish race from destroying itself as soon as it was born.

But if we had no power to commit wrong, then how are we to learn why the right thing is...well, right? It is better to know why you follow a path, than to simply follow it because you are told to. Pain brings knowledge, and good is a symptom of that knowledge well-learned.

Some learn it...and some don't. But everything balances out in the end, because that is how it was designed.


When things get scary we look for explainations and nothing is more frustrating than not having an explaination.....religion offers explainations, science does as well.....they are two sides of the same coin in my opinion as well. I choose to combine both of them to explain my personal understanding of the universe and humanity.


Ah...so you do understand. I am glad for you.



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 03:47 PM
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Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by Mijamija
 



I am not convinced I am right about most all things. I have very few convictions but i like options and possibilites.


Considering this is meant to discredit me, I will reply to this particular bit. I don't think you are aware of exactly how much you assume to know things, how many times you've said, "How much you wanna bet?", how many times you've judged someone only to find out you were wrong.

Maybe if you took a moment and recalled, for a fact, how many times you have done these things, you would see how arrogant we can be. But when the world begins to go to hell, when chaos reigns all across the countries...that's when we become fearful. And we become greedy. And when enough fear is instilled in a primitive concept, that concept becomes necessary for the survival of selfish people. They cling to it, believing that it will save them.

Don't believe me? Watch Stephen King's The Mist. Every one of his books/movies reveals the depth of mankind's flaws, and exactly how we deal with them. The Mist shows what happens when a group of people, terrified of a monstrous world and clueless as to how to cope, begin to form a cult...a barbaric cult.


I am not even sure that a universal "right and wrong" is possible, everyone sees their own rights and wrongs nowadays.


What more do you expect from a race that was supposedly never supposed to know about good and evil in the first place?

There is no right and wrong. There is negativity, which we are meant to learn from. And there is positivity, which we will eventually adhere to. Negative is the natural opposite of positive. This is a fact. Without positive, there is no negative...and vice versa. Light is needed to cast shadow, and shadow defines light. The concepts of "right" and "wrong" were invented to keep a rambunctious, obnoxious, brutal, and completely selfish race from destroying itself as soon as it was born.

But if we had no power to commit wrong, then how are we to learn why the right thing is...well, right? It is better to know why you follow a path, than to simply follow it because you are told to. Pain brings knowledge, and good is a symptom of that knowledge well-learned.

Some learn it...and some don't. But everything balances out in the end, because that is how it was designed.


When things get scary we look for explainations and nothing is more frustrating than not having an explaination.....religion offers explainations, science does as well.....they are two sides of the same coin in my opinion as well. I choose to combine both of them to explain my personal understanding of the universe and humanity.


Ah...so you do understand. I am glad for you.




Whoa.....I was not trying to discredit you in anyway! And I try my best not to judge or assume. It seems to me you have misunderstood my response, I was over all agreeing with you, but pointing out how I personally am, and how I try to understand the world around me, nothing more than that.

I am sorry if you felt I was attacking your post in anyway...that was not my intention. I actually like your posts, and so if you do not want me to contribute to the discussion, just say so and I"ll gladly poof and avoid your posts, I am not here to make waves of any sort, just learn and discuss. Again, sorry.



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 07:10 PM
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Originally posted by Starchild23

Originally posted by Iason321
reply to post by Starchild23
 


It's no wonder you'd be upset at us Christians waging war against the Deceiver, considering you're a part of his army and you don't even have the smarts to realize it.


So now you're accusing me of working for Satan?

Am I supposed to take this seriously?

Starchild, you know how the Christians are, if you aren't in their Cult, then they say you are working for their made up enemy. Little do they know......



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 11:41 AM
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Originally posted by autowrench

Originally posted by Starchild23

Originally posted by Iason321
reply to post by Starchild23
 


It's no wonder you'd be upset at us Christians waging war against the Deceiver, considering you're a part of his army and you don't even have the smarts to realize it.


So now you're accusing me of working for Satan?

Am I supposed to take this seriously?

Starchild, you know how the Christians are, if you aren't in their Cult, then they say you are working for their made up enemy. Little do they know......



Ah, so this is your sarcastic side talking. I understand now.



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 11:43 AM
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Originally posted by Mijamija



Christians, stop being afraid of dying. What's the point in fearing the inevitable? Also, take responsibility for your flaws. No supernatural being is responsible for your mistakes. You are. Learn to live with it.



Not Christian here, but I have been around enough of them to think your above statement is a bit off base. I get the feeling that perhaps you have misunderstood certain concepts of Christianity.

The Christians I know are not afraid of dying, and they do take responsibility for their flaws/mistakes/sins.....that is why they apologize to those they have wronged, seek to make amends, and go to things like confession/they speak with their pastors or they ask god for forgiveness of their sins.

Christians, if I have misunderstood this, please correct me on this point.



And that's also why they blame all of the worldly chaos on a fictitious being that was supposedly created by god but when awry...which pretty much says that God cannot create a perfect being. After all, so far nothing has been created that is perfect.

Unless, of course, negativity is part of the process. But we don't seem to want to accept that, now do we?



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 05:09 PM
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Originally posted by smyleegrl
reply to post by Starchild23
 


Only pertains to the Christian God? Why so selective?


Because he is trolling christians, otherwise this post wouldn't exist.

Haters gonna hate.



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 05:31 PM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by smyleegrl
reply to post by Starchild23
 


Only pertains to the Christian God? Why so selective?


Because he is trolling christians, otherwise this post wouldn't exist.

Haters gonna hate.


I'm not trolling.

I'm pointing out that despite the poo-throwing contest you lot are so engrossed in every time a religious or atheist thread pops up, both sides of the spectrum are waist deep in cow patties.

Learn to accept the inexplicable face of nature...neither of you knows as much as you pretend to, and there's no use insisting otherwise.

Nope, no trolling here. Only exasperation at the human species.



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 09:35 PM
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Originally posted by Starchild23

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by smyleegrl
reply to post by Starchild23
 


Only pertains to the Christian God? Why so selective?


Because he is trolling christians, otherwise this post wouldn't exist.

Haters gonna hate.


I'm not trolling.

I'm pointing out that despite the poo-throwing contest you lot are so engrossed in every time a religious or atheist thread pops up, both sides of the spectrum are waist deep in cow patties.

Learn to accept the inexplicable face of nature...neither of you knows as much as you pretend to, and there's no use insisting otherwise.

Nope, no trolling here. Only exasperation at the human species.

I'm not either. If anything, the real trolls would be the ones posting Bible quotes and religious dogma, and for what purpose? If you are happy in the little box of religion, so be it, just don't try to drag me in there.
I love Humanity, and do wish all could make it. The book religions have done all that they could to take from Humanity that Divine Spark that all are born with, and replace it with a false hope of an obscure salvation. I only attempt to show the truth of the matter, what it really say, or what that word really means, and so on. A few days ago a Christian told me that "if I read the Bible all the way through, that I cannot be a Christian. A Christian must just have faith in the word of God." I remember thinking to myself, what a great method for mind control! Well, too late, I already read it, and in fact made it into a research project for some 8 years. I read a great many book during this period, and took notes, notes I still have today. Some of this was the Occult Teachings. (I know, shudder, evil, satanic!) But in reality, the word only mean "hidden," nothing more. If you truly want to explore the truth of religion study the Occult.
Isn't it a good thing to question one's faith on occasion? Are you so secure in it that you never question a thing, just blindly follow the tenets? I was not, am not like that. I question Everything.



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 04:55 PM
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reply to post by autowrench
 



Originally posted by autowrench

Originally posted by Starchild23

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by smyleegrl
reply to post by Starchild23
 


Only pertains to the Christian God? Why so selective?


Because he is trolling christians, otherwise this post wouldn't exist.

Haters gonna hate.


I'm not trolling.

I'm pointing out that despite the poo-throwing contest you lot are so engrossed in every time a religious or atheist thread pops up, both sides of the spectrum are waist deep in cow patties.

Learn to accept the inexplicable face of nature...neither of you knows as much as you pretend to, and there's no use insisting otherwise.

Nope, no trolling here. Only exasperation at the human species.

I'm not either. If anything, the real trolls would be the ones posting Bible quotes and religious dogma, and for what purpose? If you are happy in the little box of religion, so be it, just don't try to drag me in there.
I love Humanity, and do wish all could make it. The book religions have done all that they could to take from Humanity that Divine Spark that all are born with, and replace it with a false hope of an obscure salvation. I only attempt to show the truth of the matter, what it really say, or what that word really means, and so on. A few days ago a Christian told me that "if I read the Bible all the way through, that I cannot be a Christian. A Christian must just have faith in the word of God." I remember thinking to myself, what a great method for mind control! Well, too late, I already read it, and in fact made it into a research project for some 8 years. I read a great many book during this period, and took notes, notes I still have today. Some of this was the Occult Teachings. (I know, shudder, evil, satanic!) But in reality, the word only mean "hidden," nothing more. If you truly want to explore the truth of religion study the Occult.
Isn't it a good thing to question one's faith on occasion? Are you so secure in it that you never question a thing, just blindly follow the tenets? I was not, am not like that. I question Everything.



Actually, those "trolls" are using their spiritual basis as an argument against your lack of differential spirituality. In other words, they are using their will to believe to combat your will to not believe.

Is there a problem with this?

Wait...isn't the occult basically using nature and "supernatural forces" (or basically, stuff that can't be poked with a stick under a bright light) in order to achieve the same end as spirituality, but to a more expansive point?

Sounds completely selfish and evil. Right.



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 11:43 AM
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Actually, those "trolls" are using their spiritual basis as an argument against your lack of differential spirituality. In other words, they are using their will to believe to combat your will to not believe.

Is there a problem with this?

I myself live within a Spiritual Aspect of Life. The only problem I see is someone coming at me from a purely humanistic standpoint and trying to talk about things of Spirit. In other words, a person comes to me, saying, "I have the Holy Spirit," and I know that I Am my "Holy Spirit," and tells me how to get it for myself. As for "beliefs," those are set into stone, and cannot ever change, or be changed, no matter what evidence presents itself. I have Ideas. Ideas are Dynamic, always evolving, Beliefs are Static, always devolving.

In effect, I live in Two Worlds, the humanistic 3rd Dimensional World of material things of wishes and dreams, and the Spiritual World of seeing those dreams come to life. I cannot live in either world for long, I cannot say in the physical world because it is too materialistic, and driven by electronic devices and media outlets, and I cannot stay within the World of Spirit full time, yet. Soon.
edit on 4/10/12 by autowrench because: (no reason given)



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