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The Trinity before and after Jesus's birth

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posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 12:52 PM
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People make a big deal about the Trinity. Or, I should say people with an agenda make a big deal about it. To my son I am The Old American, the father. He expects me to act a certain way, to say certain things. If he saw me as The Old American the network engineer, he'd see a different "me". My wife sees The Old American the husband AND the father. These are all aspects of The Old American.

The Trinity is not really all that different, though it's on a Godly scale. The Father, The Word, the Holy Spirit are three aspects of one God, though since He/She is an infinite God, He/She can make those aspects work independently of the others.

As to who Jesus was, he was the flesh aspect of The Word. The Father is the stern God, who gives orders, gives love, and exists to direct The Word. The Word is what created the universe and all in it. It is action. The word performs miracles. The Holy Spirit is that part of God within humanity, within nature, that part of the universe that drives it and keeps it going. The Word became Jesus, made flesh to bring "The Word of God" to humanity.

People tend to put things into mortal perspective. There's nothing wrong with that, as we are only mortal. But it's when people begin to try to bring God down to mortal reasoning and rationality that the problems start. This is why atheists can't get it into their limited mortal minds that the Trinity isn't three separate individuals, but three aspects of one God.

/TOA




posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 01:19 PM
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From the Catolic perspective, at the outset it is crucial to understand two key concepts. You must distinguish between immanent Trinity (theological Trinity) and economic trinity, and understand how they relate to each other.

Immanent (theological) Trinitarianism, refers to the essence of God the Almighty, his hypostatic three-fold nature and his absolute and perfect being, before creation. It deals with the infinite, blessed communion of the divine Persons among themselves, WITHOUT REFERENCE TO CREATION. It is the triune God as he is in himself.

This should not be confused with economic Trinitarianism (God for us), the concerted activity of the three Persons in creation as they maintain and restore the created world to a state of well-being and communion with God. “Economic” refers to “divine management of earthly affairs” (The Encyclopedia of Religion [New York, Macmillan Publishing Company, 1987]) It is oriented to the concrete history of creation and redemption: God initiates a covenant with Israel, God speaks through the prophets, God takes on flesh in Christ, God dwells within as Spirit. It is also called revelatory Trinity because the triune God reveals himself through his dispensation of salvation.

Accordingly, much Trinitarian theological discussions about the “One God in three Persons” deals with immanent Trinity, not economic Trinity. The economic aspect of the Trinity includes the created humanity of Jesus, who was not God, and not part of the immanent Trinity. The man of the God-man Jesus, the created humanity who was not God (Catholic Encyclopedia, 943), could rightfully pray to God the Father and did regard himself as inferior; this He performed in the context of economic Trinity. The idea that the preexistent Word (God the Son) was with God stems from John 1:1:

In the beginning was the Word,
And the Word was with God,
And the Word was God.

John 1:1 speaks in the context of pre-creation immanent Trinity. Jon 1:1 does not claim to say that the created humanity of Jesus was God, or was with God in the beginning. If you keep this distinction in mind you will come to a better understanding of what the Trinity doctrine actually means.



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 02:07 PM
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Originally posted by The Old American
People make a big deal about the Trinity. Or, I should say people with an agenda make a big deal about it. To my son I am The Old American, the father. He expects me to act a certain way, to say certain things. If he saw me as The Old American the network engineer, he'd see a different "me". My wife sees The Old American the husband AND the father. These are all aspects of The Old American.

The Trinity is not really all that different, though it's on a Godly scale. The Father, The Word, the Holy Spirit are three aspects of one God, though since He/She is an infinite God, He/She can make those aspects work independently of the others.

As to who Jesus was, he was the flesh aspect of The Word. The Father is the stern God, who gives orders, gives love, and exists to direct The Word. The Word is what created the universe and all in it. It is action. The word performs miracles. The Holy Spirit is that part of God within humanity, within nature, that part of the universe that drives it and keeps it going. The Word became Jesus, made flesh to bring "The Word of God" to humanity.

People tend to put things into mortal perspective. There's nothing wrong with that, as we are only mortal. But it's when people begin to try to bring God down to mortal reasoning and rationality that the problems start. This is why atheists can't get it into their limited mortal minds that the Trinity isn't three separate individuals, but three aspects of one God.

/TOA


Be careful with this line of reasoning. John 1:14 was not meant to be read literally. It states, “And the Word became flesh,” but this does not mean that the Word made a complete transformation from spirit to only flesh, which is a type of heretical modalism condemned by the Catholic Church in the first centuries. Rather, the divine Person of Christ assumed a human nature. Jesus was a divine Person with a human nature. That is the only acceptable interpretation of John 1:14 because the divinity of Christ - that he was and is God - in an undeniable Biblical truth, and without His divinity redemption is not possible. It was necessary for Jesus to be a God-man for the sake of mankind’s salvation. Therefore He could not be “mere flesh” under any circumstances.



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 02:19 PM
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/Facepalm.

Not even going to try....

Plenty of older threads discussing this nature for me to engage in this.



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 02:22 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


Oh c'mon. This debate never gets old.



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 02:48 PM
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the hindus realized god's three fold nature at least 4000 years ago. the christains have just a very childish fairy tellish view of the same truth that explains the whole of existence



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 02:58 PM
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Originally posted by biggmoneyme
the hindus realized god's three fold nature at least 4000 years ago. the christains have just a very childish fairy tellish view of the same truth that explains the whole of existence


I would argue their society has not went very far with it...



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 03:02 PM
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Originally posted by SisyphusRide

Originally posted by biggmoneyme
the hindus realized god's three fold nature at least 4000 years ago. the christains have just a very childish fairy tellish view of the same truth that explains the whole of existence


I would argue their society has not went very far with it...


the vedic culture goes way back, farther than modern archaeologist think. graham hancock has wrote some pretty persuasive books on the topic. you can probably even find him on youtube. their religion too is really an advanced ancient civilzation with their own advanced and very similar science. our science is really just a very young religion lol. what is left over today is just like a degeneration of knowledge and proper understanding of the words. we are on the up cycle though. if you can really stretch your perception for a moment you can see it



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 03:10 PM
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reply to post by Hydroman
 


You make a point that Christians really dont understand the relationship of the Father, Son and Spirit. Christians are part of a combined religion of sun worship of the Romans (check all the catholic imagery) and the belief of the Hebrews from Scripture.

First before we move forward, we must separate Christianity from the Scriptures, that means the bible to those who dont know. Christianity has no connection with ancient Israel, but has their connection with the Sanhedrin, ribbical Judaism and Roman and Greek mythology. Hence this is why the New Testament that is left for us is in Greek, because the records of the New Testament in Hebrew have been destroyed, hidden from us or lost.

Now the Trinity is applied to the Father Son and Holy Spirit which comes from old ancient Babylon of the Syrians and Caananites. This is where Tammuz (The Son), Nimrod(the Father) come into existence. I dont know of where exactly the Spirit or holy spirit they call, but it has something to do with Nimrod or Semiramis, the Queen of Heaven. This is why Catholocism uses Mary to be as like the queen of heaven, she represents Semiramis of Ancient Babylon.

Scriptures do no teach that the Father and Son and Sprit are one being, but it teaches that the Heavenly Father, sent His Son, to the world, and the Spirit is of the Father. The Son (Yahuwshuwah the Messiah) was Created. This is a huge understanding of the position of the Son, that Christians seem to never talk about.

Now the word God that appears in our English bibles is translated from the Hebrew word Alahym, which means mighty one. Even in the old testament Moses was Alahym to the Egyptians. The English text says "you will be a god to Pharaoh", which is a mistranslation of the original word.

Exodus 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. KJV
Exodus 7:1 So יהוה said to Mosheh, “See, I have made you an Alahym to Pharaoh, and Aharon your brother is your prophet. The Scriptures ISR


Our english bible has mistranslated words into different meanings to promote the trinity, and to add to the confusion of the scriptures. But if you are filled with the set apart spirit, you can understand perfectly what you will read.

Now in the beginning as it speaks in Genesis, it is speaking of 'Alahym' which is both the Father and the Son which created the heavens and the earth. Alahym can be applied to any high important authority powers. This is why Moses was Alahym to Pharaoh, the the Son is Alahym to Man, and the Father is Alahym to Man and the Son. And the Son created all things, except himself. The Son was created first of all things, then the Son played part in creation of everything else of the universe as it says in Hebrews.


Heb 1:1 Alahym, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of Alahym worship him.
1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O Alahym, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore Alahym, even thy Alahym, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
1:10 And, Thou, Master, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?



edit on 1-4-2012 by Seektruthalways1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 03:10 PM
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reply to post by Hydroman
 


For someone to appoint someone heir, you must be of higher authority. The Father Yahuwah appointed His Son Yahuwshuwah to be heir of all things. That means the Father is ABOVE the Son, they are not the same in this respect.

In 1:2, the Son has been appointed heir of all things by His Father, Yahuwah.
In verse 1:4, it says he was made, who? the Son was made much better than all the angels or malak.
Verse 1:5 it shows that the Messiah Yahuwshuwah, is called His Son, the Father Yahuwah calls him(Yahuwshuwah) His son.
1:6 Explains that Yahuwshuwah the Son was the firstborn of all the world, and all angels of Alahym(Yahuwah) worship him.

Now verse 8 is where the confusion starts. It says "But unto the Son(Yahuwshuwah) he(Yahuwah) saith, Thy throne(your throne), O Alahym(mighty one-speaking of Yahuwshuwah) is forever and ever:

1:9 "Thou hast love righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore Alahym(mighty one), even thy Alahym( even your mighty one-speaking of Yahuwah), hath annointed thee(Yahuwshuwah) with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

1:10 And, Thou, Master, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thy hands(this here explains that the Son was in part of creation making the universe)

Now in John 16 it explains the Son came out from the Father, as like a child comes out of the mother. They are not one being, as in one soul, but they are connected physically. The Son was inside the Father in the begging, and played part in creation through all things.

John 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from Alahym.
16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.


In John 17, it explains the relationship and connection that the Son has with the Father, as we will, those who are saved.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Does this mean that we become 'Alahym' or that we become the Messiah or the Father? NO thats stupid, this explains the connection that we will have. Does not an army that moves perfectly together move as ONE? Does not a perfect group of fighter jets flying together move as ONE? Does not a flock of geese move as a V as ONE?This is what this means, being in perfect obedience and works.




John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Again it says they are one, as the Son obeys the Father perfectly, so as to be seen as one.




Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Again it says that the Son was before the foundation of the world




John 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
John 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

This is all about spiritual connection. Does not your arms and legs move with your body as one, but can be in a way separate in function? The spiritual body of the Father, Son and Spirit are one, as they are in perfect harmony, as we will be one with them in spirit, in perfect obedience and harmony.

Here is more to explain this.






edit on 1-4-2012 by Seektruthalways1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 03:22 PM
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reply to post by icepack
 

You are talking in 3D terms here. Think Divine. And in answer to your question, I do not know. I do know that since very early childhood I have thought of God as a Female, and never could think of God as a Male.



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 03:25 PM
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reply to post by wearewatchingyouman
 

Be careful with this line of reasoning. John 1:14 was not meant to be read literally.

It is, the problem is that the translation you are reading in the English version Bible is not literal, you can't take that literally. If you were to understand it in the original Greek, then that should be taken literally.
What it says is, sarx logos, which made its appearance on the scene, just as it described the appearance of John the Baptist on the scene, preparing the way for The Lord. The same word is used, egeneto which in the New Testament is used to describe a particular situation coming about. This occurs as the fist word in verse 6, in the Greek Text.
Ἐγένετο ἄνθρωπος ἀπεσταλμένος παρὰ θεοῦ ὄνομα αὐτῷ Ἰωάννης·
There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John.
biblos.com...

The next problem is how to define sarx logos. The "Flesh Word"?
I would suggest, "the message to humanity", which would fit the usual construct as elsewhere found in the NT where you find the word, logos, coming after a noun.

edit on 1-4-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 03:39 PM
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Remember their are many Christians that have studied this topic and reject it.
Nontrinatarian Christian Religions
For example how many actually believe the Holy Spirit is an actual spirit being that can think and reason and act of it's own accord just like Jesus Christ? Or any independent angel or demon?

The reaction from Main Street Christianity has always been the cry of "heresy" to deny the Trinity, my reaction to those that scream that is, "apostasy". Study this topic from all angles and you will learn the great apostasy began the the 4th century....and it is still with us. Some have been able to purge themselves of false dogma, but it is a rare thing.

edit on 1-4-2012 by Blue_Jay33 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 03:40 PM
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Read this thread I wrote : All Roads Lead to Babylon

In that thread I essentially provide the evidence and many sources to detail exactly how the trinity is polytheism. This goes back way before the Christian religion even existed, back to Sumerian times.

Almost every major world religion since then has been an iteration of that trinity concept.

The original Trinity in the Mystery Babylon religion was Nimrod - Tammuz - Semiramis.

Please read my posts on the first page of that thread.
And check out my sources, I gave tons of really well written books as sourcing material.
Also I present paintings, sculptures, other artifacts, etc.

Modern Christianity in an institutional setting is a scam, (just like Islam, Hindu, etc), and it is a modern rendition of the Mystery Babylon cult. The proof exists and it's incredibly obvious once you start to study the mono-myth and pan-Babylonism.

Here is a simple quick video someone put up about it. It's really brief but it will show people visually exactly what I am talking about in a very direct clear way.

edit on 1-4-2012 by muzzleflash because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 03:45 PM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 


I agree, this ideology goes back to the Tower of Babel, Pagan spirituality full of false gods.
Trinity gods are all false.



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 03:48 PM
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Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by muzzleflash
 


I agree, this ideology goes back to the Tower of Babel, Pagan spirituality full of false gods.
Trinity gods are all false.


Yes, and that ideology is clearly idolatry.


And you can find it everywhere today...and most don't even have a clue what they are actually into...



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 03:50 PM
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reply to post by biggmoneyme
 


one a personal level that may be satisfying to the individual, but looking at it from a nation building and a civilized society perspective (using google earth and news outlets) it would appear untrue because they still have some serious problems over there, I have a few friends from India and mothers still dispose of their daughters post birth because they want boys... to be what? (that magic word successful)



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 03:52 PM
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alot of the resident in America are not sheep out to pasture so to say, we are involved and know why we work and what we work for.

some are quite self-less and do not work for personal gain but instead we are also building a nation still... not tearing it apart.

we already feel we work for the better good... this is changing though.


edit on 1-4-2012 by SisyphusRide because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 04:00 PM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 



Yes, the idolatry part of the Trinity, is a devastating stealth weapon Satan uses against those Christians to invalidate their worship, that is why I so strongly speak up against it.
Really sincere spirituality that is futile makes me sad.
Such a waste.



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 04:04 PM
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Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
Remember their are many Christians that have studied this topic and reject it.
Nontrinatarian Christian Religions
For example how many actually believe the Holy Spirit is an actual spirit being that can think and reason and act of it's own accord just like Jesus Christ? Or any independent angel or demon?

The reaction from Main Street Christianity has always been the cry of "heresy" to deny the Trinity, my reaction to those that scream that is, "apostasy". Study this topic from all angles and you will learn the great apostasy began the the 4th century....and it is still with us. Some have been able to purge themselves of false dogma, but it is a rare thing.

edit on 1-4-2012 by Blue_Jay33 because: (no reason given)


Good post.

This is also a very integral aspect of the so called infamous "Inquisitions" that took place in Europe, such as the Cathars.

Read this wiki : Catharism


Catharism (from Greek: καθαρός, katharos, pure)[1] was a name given to a Christian religious movement with dualistic and gnostic elements that appeared in the Languedoc region of France and other parts of Europe in the 11th century and flourished in the 12th and 13th centuries. The movement was extinguished in the early decades of the thirteenth century, when the Cathars were persecuted and massacred under the Inquisition.


They were killed off by the Inquisition? WHY?


Cathars, in general, formed an anti-sacerdotal party in opposition to the Catholic Church, protesting against what they perceived to be the moral, spiritual and political corruption of the Church. They claimed an Apostolic succession from the founders of Christianity, and saw Rome as having betrayed and corrupted the original purity of the message, particularly because Pope Sylvester I had (supposedly) received the Donation of Constantine (which at the time was believed to be genuine, though actually a ninth-century forgery and therefore an anachronism).



It has been alleged that the Catharist concept of Jesus resembled nontrinitarian modalistic monarchianism (Sabellianism) in the West and adoptionism in the East.[12][13]

Bernard of Clairvaux's biographer and other sources accuse some Cathars of Arianism,[14][15] and some scholars see Cathar Christology as having traces of earlier Arian roots.[16][17] According to some of their contemporary enemies Cathars did not accept the Trinitarian understanding of Jesus, but considered him the human form of an angel similar to Docetic Christology.[18] Zoé Oldenbourg (2000) compared the Cathars to "Western Buddhists" because she considered that their view of the doctrine of "resurrection" taught by Jesus was, in fact, similar to the Buddhist doctrine of reincarnation


So they tortured and killed many of them as a result. This type of oppression was repeated in many locations for similar reasons, to stop anyone from revealing the Catholic Church as a polytheistic Babylon cult.

This subject gets really really deep...

This is one of the primary reasons for the creation of Protestantism (to protest the church), however the sad reality is that the vast majority of all Protestant denominations have lost their original intent and now are reintegrated directly into the Babylon cult, and even the secularists are into it as well due to holidays like Easter or Christmas.

If you have a whole day to invest into this topic of Inquisitions and secret cults, please please take the time to watch this video series "Roman Empire Rules Today", which focuses in several sections on the Inquisitions and the Holocaust and explains why the Church was behind them. Holocaust actually means "Sacrifice by fire", that was the original meaning. It's a religious sacrificial ritual involving fire, that's the original definition.

If you can try to ignore or appreciate the fact that most people involved in these discussions are still very religious in various ways, so we have to anticipate these things and remain open minded without rejecting any of the hard indisputable facts simply because the messenger had other beliefs we may not agree with.


Google Video Link


Just sit down and watch that video series.
Also go check out my Babylon thread and read through that, check the links, watch the vids, etc.
edit on 1-4-2012 by muzzleflash because: (no reason given)


Also be careful not to take the guy's personal interpretations of the 'prophecies' too seriously. We all know those things can go any random way. So what I did was watched the video for the historical sources and surprising facts he brought up through the series. It was actually rather good, despite the bias elements.

He does really good research on subjects like Constantine the Great, EU, Club of Rome, WW2, Reformation period, etc.
edit on 1-4-2012 by muzzleflash because: (no reason given)



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