It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

The Trinity before and after Jesus's birth

page: 2
5
<< 1    3  4  5 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 05:08 AM
link   
If you are confused now try 'Asimov's Guide to the Bible'.

An interesting read, for example :-

God
The Bible centers about God, and God is brought into the talc
at once:
Genesis 1:i. In the beginning God created the heaven and the
earth.
The Hebrew word, translated here as God, is "Elohim" andthat
is a plural form which would ordinarily (if tradition were defied) -be
translated "gods." It is possible that in the very earliest traditions on
which the Bible is based, the creation was- indeed the work of a
plurality of gods. The firmly monotheistic Biblical writes would camfolly
have eliminated such polytheism, but could not perhaps do anything
with the firmly ingrained term "Elohim." It was too familiar
to change.
. Some hints of polytheism seem t o have survived the editing* Thps,
after the first created man disobeys God's injunction not to pi of the
tree of knowledge, God is quoted as saying:
Genesis 3:22. . . . Behold, the man' is become as one of us, to
know'goodand evil.. .
Thep, too, still later, when God is concerned over mankind's arrogance
in attempting to build a tower that would reach to heaven,
He is quoted as saying:
Genesis 11:7. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their
language . . .
It is possible to argue that this is not t i e &dence of early polytheism.*
Cod might be viewed as using the royal "we"; or as speaking
to an angelic audience; or even, in the Christian view, as speaking in
the persons of the Trinity.
Nevertheless, as far as we know the history of religion outside the
Bible, early beliefs were always polytheistic and monotheism was a
late development in the history of ideas.


Christians went mad when he wrote it.

P




posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 05:16 AM
link   
trinity versus



“or a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore the zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this.”

eternal father hmmmmm?



That Isaiah 9:6 has been misinterpreted can be seen from the fact that Jesus is never called the “Eternal Father” anywhere else in Bible. Since the Trinitarian doctrine teaches that Christians should “neither confound the Persons nor divide the Substance” (Athanasian Creed), how can the Trinitarians accept that Jesus is the “Eternal Father”? Let us consider additional facts impartially. First, all the Hebrew verb forms in Isaiah 9:6 are in the past tense. For example, the word which the Christian Bibles render as “his name will be called” is the two words ‘vayikra shemo,’ which properly translated, should read “his name was called.” The word “vayikra” is the first word to appear in the book of Leviticus (1:1), and it is translated properly over there – in the past tense. In addition, the King James Version translates the same verbs elsewhere in the past tense in Genesis 4:26 and Isaiah 5:25. Only in Isaiah 9:6-7 are these verbs translated in the future tense! Notice that it says “a child HAS been born to us.” This is an event that has just occurred, not a future event. Isaiah is not making a prophecy, but recounting history. A future event would say a child will be born to us, but this is NOT what the verse says. The Christian translations capitalize the word‘son’ assuming that this is a messianic prophecy and the names of a divine son. Second, the two letter word “is”, is usually not stated in Hebrew. Rather,“is” is understood. For example, the words “hakelev” (the dog) and “gadol” (big), when joined into a sentence - hakelev gadol - means “the dog IS big,” even though no Hebrew word in that sentence represents the word “is.” A more accurate translation of the name of that child, then, would be “A wonderful counselor is the mighty God, the everlasting father ...”. This name describes God, not the person who carries the name. The name Isaiah itself means “God is salvation,” but no one believes the prophet himself is God in a human body! Third, the phrase “Mighty God” is a poor translation according to some biblical scholars. Although English makes a clear distinction between “God” and “god,” the Hebrew language, which has only capital letters, cannot. The Hebrew word “God” had a much wider range of application than it does in English. Some suggest a better translation for the English reader would be “mighty hero,” or “divine hero.” Both Martin Luther and James Moffatt translated the phrase as “divine hero” in their Bibles. Fourth, according to the New Testament, Jesus was never called any of these names in his lifetime. Fifth, if Isaiah 9:6 is taken to refer to Jesus, then Jesus is the Father! And this is against the Trinitarian doctrine. Sixth, the fact that the New Testament does not quote this passage shows that even the New Testament authors didn’t take this verse to be in reference to Jesus. Seventh, the passage is talking about the wonders performed by the Lord for Hezekiah, king of Judah. Preceding verses in Isaiah 9 talk of a great military triumph by Israel over its enemies. At the time Isaiah is said to have written this passage, God had just delivered King Hezekiah and Jerusalem from a siege laid by the Assyrians under General Sennacherib. The deliverance is said to have been accomplished in spectacular fashion: an angel went into the Assyrian camp and killed 185,000 soldiers while they slept. When Sennacherib awoke to find his army decimated, he and the remaining soldiers fled, where he was assassinated by his own sons (Isaiah 37:36-38). Chapters 36 and 37 of Isaiah recount how Hezekiah stood firm in the face of Sennacherib’s vast army and his blasphemous words against the God. When all seemed lost, Hezekiah continued to trust in the Lord, and for this he was rewarded with a miraculous victory. It is interesting to note that the statement, “the zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this,” found at the end of Isaiah 9:7, is found in only two other places in the Bible: Isaiah 37:32 and 2 Kings 19:31. Both these passages discuss the miraculous deliverance of Hezekiah by God. Therefore, in light of the above, Isaiah is recounting God’s defense of Jerusalem during the Assyrian siege. Furthermore, Soncino’s commentary says the chapter is about the fall of Assyria and the announcement of the birth of Hezekiah, the son of Ahaz.



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 05:45 AM
link   

Originally posted by borntowatch
We are finite He is infinite.
Does it make sense for this god to punish finite creatures infinitely?
edit on 1-4-2012 by Hydroman because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 06:00 AM
link   
reply to post by DuecesxGeneral
 




Isaiah is recounting God’s defense of Jerusalem during the Assyrian siege.


are you talking about the almighty lord ? did god have to fight for allmightiness ?



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 06:01 AM
link   

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by borntowatch
We are finite He is infinite.
Does it make sense for this god to punish finite creatures infinitely?
edit on 1-4-2012 by Hydroman because: (no reason given)


Absolutely, thats a good question. Humanity is not according to the bible eternal outside of Jesus.
Dont quote me on that though. Another BIG question I cant answer.
Is hell forever for humanity?



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 06:06 AM
link   

Originally posted by pheonix358
If you are confused now try 'Asimov's Guide to the Bible'.

An interesting read, for example :-

God
The Bible centers about God, and God is brought into the talc
at once:
Genesis 1:i. In the beginning God created the heaven and the
earth.
The Hebrew word, translated here as God, is "Elohim" andthat
is a plural form which would ordinarily (if tradition were defied) -be
translated "gods." It is possible that in the very earliest traditions on
which the Bible is based, the creation was- indeed the work of a
plurality of gods. The firmly monotheistic Biblical writes would camfolly
have eliminated such polytheism, but could not perhaps do anything
with the firmly ingrained term "Elohim." It was too familiar
to change.
. Some hints of polytheism seem t o have survived the editing* Thps,
after the first created man disobeys God's injunction not to pi of the
tree of knowledge, God is quoted as saying:
Genesis 3:22. . . . Behold, the man' is become as one of us, to
know'goodand evil.. .
Thep, too, still later, when God is concerned over mankind's arrogance
in attempting to build a tower that would reach to heaven,
He is quoted as saying:
Genesis 11:7. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their
language . . .
It is possible to argue that this is not t i e &dence of early polytheism.*
Cod might be viewed as using the royal "we"; or as speaking
to an angelic audience; or even, in the Christian view, as speaking in
the persons of the Trinity.
Nevertheless, as far as we know the history of religion outside the
Bible, early beliefs were always polytheistic and monotheism was a
late development in the history of ideas.


Christians went mad when he wrote it.

P


It was well known before then and is used to perplex those of Jewish heritage today.
It use to perplex the Hebrews along time before as well.
Christianity is a Monotheism and the Trinity can be explained only in Spiritual context.

You dear Sir over rate your self and Asimov as well



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 07:34 AM
link   

Originally posted by DuecesxGeneral
reply to post by Hydroman
 


I thought trinity was polytheism?


No. Hindus, Mormons etc are polytheists. Think of the Trinity as yourself, you're created in His image. You have body, soul and spirit. When your body dies your soul and spirit move on to the afterlife. Are you 3 people, or 1 person?

We call God "Him" not "Them".


edit on 1-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 07:44 AM
link   

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by borntowatch
We are finite He is infinite.
Does it make sense for this god to punish finite creatures infinitely?


The spirit realm is outside the time domain, it has no time. God isn't someone with lots and lots of time, He is timeless, outside the 4th dimension altogether. Is He bound by the restrictions of mass, acceleration, or gravity? I don't think so. Therefore thinking that God has tons of time makes for great poetry, but it's terrible Physics.

Besides that, you and I are eternal beings. We currently reside in a finite structure, but that structure dies and our soul and spirit do not. Think of a computer, if you knew every circuit, every wire, every piece of the hardware you could not tell me how it functioned. It's just a residence for what actually makes a computer, the software. Software has no mass, we can transmit it over the airwaves.

Finally, we humans don't even punish folks here on Earth for how long it took to commit a crime. If I murder someone it may take a second to do that if I shot them in the head with a shotgun, but I'll spend a lot more than a second in jail. We are punished depending on the severity of the crime, not how long it took to commit the crime. Don't hold God to a standards/rules we humans don't hold ourselves to, that's the "Special Pleading" fallacy.



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 07:50 AM
link   

Originally posted by icepack
reply to post by Hydroman
 




....that is confusing!

and in the beginning there was only the word, will not bring more light into this thread either, i guess.


Well, it also says "God speaks", so who was God speaking to before creation? God also is "Love", so who was God loving before creation?



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 07:58 AM
link   
reply to post by DuecesxGeneral
 


What acrostic was formed in Hebrew when Pilate wrote "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews" and hung it above His name on the cross? (The Latin acrostic is "INRI") Figure that out and you'll discover why the Jews were raging pissed and wanted the wording changed slightly.



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 07:58 AM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

are soul and spirit creations ?



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 08:01 AM
link   

Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by borntowatch
We are finite He is infinite.
Does it make sense for this god to punish finite creatures infinitely?
edit on 1-4-2012 by Hydroman because: (no reason given)


Absolutely, thats a good question. Humanity is not according to the bible eternal outside of Jesus.
Dont quote me on that though. Another BIG question I cant answer.
Is hell forever for humanity?


Dude, that's horrible Physics. Anyone who has had a NDE will tell you "soul sleep" is not true. I especially like the ones from people who were born blind or deaf from birth and can either see or hear what doctors and nurses are doing/saying when they die.



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 08:03 AM
link   

Originally posted by icepack
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

are soul and spirit creations ?



Do they exist?



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 08:30 AM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 




You have body, soul and spirit.

that's what you said in one of your replies.
if soul and spirit exist, maybe they are no creations. a soul is the breath of god, is the breath of god a creation of or a part of god ?



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 09:16 AM
link   
reply to post by Hydroman
 

Who exactly IS the creator God?

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness… So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. (Gen. 1:26)

The fact that male and female came out when God said, “Let Us make man in Our image” shows that God’s original image was not only male, but female as well. If God were just one being with 2 types of characteristics, so to say, only Adam with a “feminine side” would have come out. However, the reality is that two individual beings – Adam and Eve – came out representing the image of God. This means that God the Creator is not only the male image of God we always call Father, but ALSO (not instead of) the female image of God whom we rightly should call Mother.
This God/Goddess who created the family systems on earth to teach about the family system in the Heavenly Abodes. After all, the Earthly system is only a copy, a mirror image and shadow of the Heavenly one (Heb. 8:5).

So tell me this, why would God create a complete family on Earth and a broken family in heaven?

Throughout prehistoric and early historic periods of human development, people revered a Female Supreme Creator. The Great Goddess, the Divine Ancestress, was worshiped as far back as the Upper Paleolithic era - about 25,000-30,000 BCE.
Historic evidence proves that the Goddess religion existed and flourished in the Near and Middle East for thousands of years before the arrival of the patriarchal Abraham, first prophet of the male deity Yahweh in Judaism. Then came the Church. Then came the Book Religions. Then came the Witch Burnings. Even the Godfather kneels and kisses the ring of the Bishop. The Goddess religion was mostly killed off, in favor of a new all male club where three males created everything and you better do what they say in their book, or Else!

The most tangible line of evidence derives from the numerous sculptures of women found in cultures of the Upper Paleolithic Age.
Venus figurines

The Goddess in History, Religion, and Art

Mother goddess

God's Wife Edited Out of the Bible -- Almost

I don't know about the rest of you, but I came into this world through the waters and vagina of a Woman, not from the lions of a man.



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 09:34 AM
link   
reply to post by Hydroman
 

According to christian beliefs . . .

Those things in your OP are not really spelled out exactly.
People can theorize on them but in the end, all you have is theories.
All these beliefs you are talking about are things that songs were written about, so these concepts all come from going to church and listening to and singing, hymns, which by nature are hyperbole.
The actual reality of things is probably a lot different than what we think.
We may have to wait until we meet God in order to have all those answers.
The goal right now is to be found in good standing with God so you will have that opportunity.

edit on 1-4-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 09:42 AM
link   
reply to post by autowrench
 




I don't know about the rest of you, but I came into this world through the waters and vagina of a Woman, not from the lions of a man.

brings up the question, what was first ? the egg of a woman or the sperm of a man ?



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 11:04 AM
link   
the trinity was how the yogi s described the threefold nature of the universe
2nd



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 11:08 AM
link   

Originally posted by randomtangentsrme

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by DuecesxGeneral
I thought trinity was polytheism?
Not the way christians describe it.


As a confirmed catholic, it is. Even the way Christians describe it. Oh but don't talk about praying to saints or anything. It only makes us mad


By us I mean those who still buy into the dogma
edit on 1-4-2012 by randomtangentsrme because: last sentence


As long as the Feast Days, Festivals, and Celebrations continue, Laissez les Catholic Bon Temps Roulez!!!
Just accept the 3 leaf clover as proof of the trinity and have another beer!
signed, a happy Louisiana Catholic who recently celebrated St. Patrick's Day, St. Joseph's Day, and Mardi Gras(yes- a celebration originating in Catholicism).
Can't wait for my Good Friday fishing trip!



posted on Apr, 1 2012 @ 11:35 AM
link   
reply to post by biggmoneyme
 




the trinity was how the yogi s described the threefold nature of the universe

interesting. you say, the concept of the trinity is older than christianity ? have you got a source for this ?



new topics

top topics



 
5
<< 1    3  4  5 >>

log in

join