what was before hell?

reply to post by apushforenlightment

Hahahahahaha. God no longer intervenes on earth. Hilarious. From where I am sitting he is really doing a lot of things now and is really pushing for evolution.

Please point out an irrefutable, undeniable evidence that God is acting on Earth.

This could be in the form of a physically impossible thing—like a square circle—which cannot possibly exist.

It could come in the form of a statistically impossible event—like a 3000 year old mummified body coming back to life to verbally tell us of life during the Biblical times—occurring spontaneously without medical involvement.

I'm all ears and eyes now, as you show me God—and not science, nature, or man—operating wholly by Himself on this world, without any outward assistance.

You reap you sow

Incorrect.

The Zodiac Killer of Northern California murdered at least 8 people, with a possible 4 additional victims. The Zodiac Killer was never identified. He was never caught, put on trial, or served any type of punishment for his crimes. He certainly did not "reap what he sewed" as you have claimed.

Jack the Ripper, from England in 1888 assaulted, murdered, and killed without ever being caught, identified or tried for his crimes either.

Finally, the Cleveland Torso Murderer—sometimes called the "Mad Butcher of Kingsbury Run"—who claimed 12 victims in the Cleveland, Ohio area in the 1930s also never was identified, caught, or put on trial.

3 infamous cases of horrible, and heartbreaking murderers getting away scot-free with their actions.

Meanwhile, people like Trayvon Martin are gunned down for crimes they did not commit, by a man—Andrew Zimmerman—who walks away without a charge brought against him for the murder of a teenage boy.

As for me reaping what I've sewn, that's perfectly alright. I don't believe in God, or Hell. All I have sewn is a nonbelief in these concepts. All I stand to reap, is a lack of God, and no Hell.

I already exist and subsist without God, without Hell, without Jesus or any of the trappings of an outdated Christian religion. I stand to reap nothing I haven't already procured.

The rest of your post is very Hindu, and Buddhist in direction. I wonder what a Christian is doing supporting Hindu beliefs in Reincarnation and Karma. Or, further, what a Christian is doing supporting evolution. According to the Holy Bible humans are made in the image of God, not as by-products of evolution over the course of thousands of years.

It seems to me like you've got all of your wires crossed, in all of the wrong ways.

I believe the Church of Scientology is still looking for members who will believe everything, and fall for anything.

~ Wandering Scribe

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
reply to post by Warpedconsciousness

 

Religions are like cultural memes, they evolve based on what contact the society has. The nomadic Jews traveled to Babylon (picking up negative existence: Sheol) then to Egypt where they adopted the 10 Commandments (which are in the Egyptian Book of Coming Forth by Day); then to Persia where they adopted the dualism of God and Satan, and also found out about Chaldean beliefs which prominently featured intermediaries between men and gods, called demi-gods or Angels; and finally into Greece where they adopted the image of Zeus for their deity, Yahweh, and learned of the resurrected god (Baal in Babylon; Osiris in Egypt; Adonis/Dionysus in Greece) which lead to the prophecy of the Jewish Messiah. As Rome took command and advanced, the Christian state-religion became important, and since Rome absorbed Greek culture, they took the religious cultural memes, and Christ was born as a mediator between Jewish belief, pagan belief, polytheistic belief, and non-belief.

~ Wandering Scribe

You made some correct points and some incorrect points.

There is no archaeological evidence to say that the Jews were nomadic, and the biblical record says that they weren't. Sheol is most likely a mix of pre-exilic and post-exilic ideas, alot of it resembles pre-exilic Isrealite funerary practices. To say that it was entirely borrowed from the Assyrians is not true. I'm sure you know, that most cultural or religious concepts are a mix of old and new, and almost never entirely stolen. The concept of dualism was vehemently rejected by the 2nd temple priesthood. Septaguint translators are really responsible for promoting concepts like hell and dualism. I guess the same thing goes for the rest of your post, coincidence.

Look closer for cultural influences. The Jews were influenced by their Levanite neighbors. Walking through Israel around say, 9th or 10th century B.C, you'd most likely encounter worshipers of the Phillistine's Dagon or the Ugaritic chief diety El.

reply to post by CaptainNemo

Ugaritic chief diety El.

This one right here. Paleo-hebrew calls God El, short for Elohim. He has also been called El Sheddai and El Elyon. Early hebrew slaves of the egyptians working in egyptian copper mines made many mentions to El. One slave miner carved the paleo-hebrew version "El save me" on a copper mineshaft wall. Many jews to this day refer to him as Elohim.

reply to post by CaptainNemo

This one right here. Paleo-hebrew calls God El, short for Elohim. He has also been called El Sheddai and El Elyon. Early hebrew slaves of the egyptians working in egyptian copper mines made many mentions to El. One slave miner carved the paleo-hebrew version "El save me" on a copper mineshaft wall. Many jews to this day refer to him as Elohim.

El has been known as the "bull god" too. Now if you remember way back in the old testament just after the exodus, when the Israelites had come to Mt. Sinai, Moses went up to the mount and he was gone so long the people had Aaron fashion a golden bull (calf) and they worshipped it and Moses came down and saw this and was extremly pissed off.

Apparently the exodus Israelites thought Yahweh was El too and found out he wasn't. Three thousand dead people later they discovered he wasn't the same god.

reply to post by Wandering Scribe

Jesus Christ was the last, in a long line of figures, deities, and messiahs who came to teach man of his connection to the eternally turning cosmos, and their own immortal nature. I wouldn't expect any Christian to know that, though, as Christians often tend to have no concept of where their religion and it's ideas actually come from.

Because you can point to examples which to you seem similar to Jesus, does not make Jesus based on any of those people, or that his teachings are based on them.
Being "connected" with the cosmos just means you will be recycled by the physical, natural cosmos, which does not guarantee that you will be again who you are now. Perhaps you may have a memory that rightly belonged to someone else, but that does not make you that person. Though the cosmos decided to save that memory for some reason, does not mean the original person who may have generated that memory still exists in any other way than a bit of data that someone can use in the same way that you could read a book.
Only the supernatural can persist in their original state through the aeon which is not a power we readily have at our disposal and especially on our own dead bodies. We need a supernatural person other than ourselves who can bring us back to life, who would be none other than Jesus who says he will personally raise us up from the dead if we believe in him and follow what he taught.

reply to post by CaptainNemo


reply to post by jmdewey60

There is no archaeological evidence to say that the Jews were nomadic

I am aware of this. However, the Bible discusses captivity in Babylon, and slavery in Egypt. Archaeologically, the Jewish "history" is pretty much a shamble of false claims. However, as with most religions, archaeological evidence is ignored in favor of Biblical or faith-based history. However, the cultural trade between the Israelites, the Babylonians, Akkadians, Levantine, and other Mesopotamian groups is certain; as cultural myths like the deluge, and religious figures like Ziusudra and the goddess Iŝtar can be found in cultures all across. Religious ideas were definitely "borrowed," if not outright stolen.

To say that it is just a coincidence that Christian religion features heavily from Mesopotamian mythology (a three-tier division of Heaven, Earth, and Underworld), Egyptian theology (a majority of the 10 commandments, judgement of actions upon death, and paradise for those of pure faith), Persian philosophy (the eternal conflict between Ahura Mazda (God) and Angra Mainyu (the Devil) culminating in an apocalyptic confrontation), and Grecco-Roman religion (the layout of Hell, the rivers of Hell, Tartarus and the flaming pit, separate locations for those suffering, and the truly damned, etc) is absurd.

The evolution and spread of religious ideas from one culture to another, through trade, or conquering, or in the guise of recording history is undeniable. Christianity is a smorgasbord religion, and Hell is a cross-cultural myth.

Obviously some new bits were added.

Odin was certainly not the savior-god of the Norse, who was suspended dead for 9 days from the World Tree where he learned the secrets of life, conquered death, was resurrected and went on to rule the Kingdom after his father.

Baal was never caught in a vicious conflict with Mat (the God of death). Baal was not slain by Mat after seven years, dead for several more, only to be resurrected and returned to life. Baal didn't follow this up by returning to defeat Mat and conquer death.

It's not like there aren't a whole catalogue of life-death-and-rebirth deities who fit the bill of Christ... oh wait.

All sarcasm aside though, I apologize if my lack-of-belief has stepped on any toes. By all means, if the story of Christ comforts you, and makes you a better person... if you need Christ to be moral and act ethically, then by all means continue to worship him. Continue to ignore the religious parallels between him and deities from a dozen or more other religions if it makes you care about your fellow man.

I don't need a feel-good story to make me a better person. I'm a good person on my own, and seeing the parallels between pagan faiths and Christianity has only strengthened my devotion to myself and my fellow man. It has removed the necessity to channel my actions and activities toward anything but those who actually deserve it. No promise Christ makes differs from one Odin, or Baal, or Dionysus made aside from the words they use.

The salvation Christianity offers, is no different than that which Egypt polytheism, Zoroastrianism, Greek polytheism, Hinduism, or a host of other religious opportunities offer. Christianity is just the one that refuses to acknowledge all of it's claims have been made before.

That's not my problem.

~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by Wandering Scribe

The salvation Christianity offers, is no different than that which Egypt polytheism, Zoroastrianism, Greek polytheism, Hinduism, or a host of other religious opportunities offer. Christianity is just the one that refuses to acknowledge all of it's claims have been made before.

And this is based on what, the Zeitgeist video?
I would say I am denying nothing because there isn't anything which matches the Jesus story.

Oh, and by the way, CaptainNemo is not a Christian, and detests Christians.

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
reply to post by apushforenlightment

 

Hahahahahaha. God no longer intervenes on earth. Hilarious. From where I am sitting he is really doing a lot of things now and is really pushing for evolution.

Please point out an irrefutable, undeniable evidence that God is acting on Earth.

This could be in the form of a physically impossible thing—like a square circle—which cannot possibly exist.

It could come in the form of a statistically impossible event—like a 3000 year old mummified body coming back to life to verbally tell us of life during the Biblical times—occurring spontaneously without medical involvement.

I'm all ears and eyes now, as you show me God—and not science, nature, or man—operating wholly by Himself on this world, without any outward assistance.

 

You reap you sow

Incorrect.

The Zodiac Killer of Northern California murdered at least 8 people, with a possible 4 additional victims. The Zodiac Killer was never identified. He was never caught, put on trial, or served any type of punishment for his crimes. He certainly did not "reap what he sewed" as you have claimed.

Jack the Ripper, from England in 1888 assaulted, murdered, and killed without ever being caught, identified or tried for his crimes either.

Finally, the Cleveland Torso Murderer—sometimes called the "Mad Butcher of Kingsbury Run"—who claimed 12 victims in the Cleveland, Ohio area in the 1930s also never was identified, caught, or put on trial.

3 infamous cases of horrible, and heartbreaking murderers getting away scot-free with their actions.

Meanwhile, people like Trayvon Martin are gunned down for crimes they did not commit, by a man—Andrew Zimmerman—who walks away without a charge brought against him for the murder of a teenage boy.

As for me reaping what I've sewn, that's perfectly alright. I don't believe in God, or Hell. All I have sewn is a nonbelief in these concepts. All I stand to reap, is a lack of God, and no Hell.

I already exist and subsist without God, without Hell, without Jesus or any of the trappings of an outdated Christian religion. I stand to reap nothing I haven't already procured.

The rest of your post is very Hindu, and Buddhist in direction. I wonder what a Christian is doing supporting Hindu beliefs in Reincarnation and Karma. Or, further, what a Christian is doing supporting evolution. According to the Holy Bible humans are made in the image of God, not as by-products of evolution over the course of thousands of years.

It seems to me like you've got all of your wires crossed, in all of the wrong ways.

I believe the Church of Scientology is still looking for members who will believe everything, and fall for anything.

~ Wandering Scribe

Lol I am definetly not Christian. I am of no religon but see signs where I find them. I am one "crazy seekers" that have experianced and found to much. My proof are personal both in events and physical changes and you will not belive until you experiance them yourself. Judgement is normaly after death when you either evolve or deevolve. I have seen to much synchronicity in my life to know I am guided and a few supernatural events. All religon/science is only trying to explain god/one in their own way. We are waking up from all religon/science/atheist and location. We are connected to One in spirit and part of the whole. Christians who are not awake do not understand what having the spirit of christ in themselves is. And they can normaly not look beyond the duality of their belifs to open up their chakras and be able to get the spirit of christ/connection to god thru crown chakra. A fool only looks at a piece (religon is a description of a piece) of the whole picture. A wise man or madman look at all peices and make them fit and then test them against his experiance. My picture give me all the answers I need and then some.

reply to post by apushforenlightment

Christians who are not awake do not understand what having the spirit of christ in themselves is.

Christianity is in the fabric of the language we speak... they'd have to unlearn English and all the languages in which it came from to say they do not have a little bit-o-Christ in them. It happens to be the most efficient and eolved language on the planet too, even though some would claim the hollow language of math to be.

I remember the answer to this question of what was before Hell now... someone had to remind me.

it's called the Garden

Originally posted by apushforenlightment
We are connected to One in spirit and part of the whole.

and one is to speak the Word of Christ's truth too...

it will be very difficult to get it out of the brain because it is you

reply to post by jmdewey60

And this is based on what, the Zeitgeist video?

I am consistently impressed by how often people throw out the "Zeitgeist" attack whenever anything about Christianity's pagan origins are brought to light. Somehow, people seem to think "Zeitgeist" is about unmasking Christianity. It's not. Have you ever seen all of "Zeitgeist?" The goal of the opening segment of the "Zeitgeist" film is not to demean Christianity, but to demean all religious belief for the political, moral, and spiritual vice-grip it places us in, under the guise of salvation. The reason that "Zeitgeist" brings to light the archetypal solar-messiah myth in a variety of cultures is because it has always been used to direct the will of the people, in accordance with the ruling priest class.

I would say I am denying nothing because there isn't anything which matches the Jesus story

Everything matches the story of Jesus Christ. It is only ideological blinders which make you wish that Jesus were original, because Christianity is the myth you have chosen as truth, as opposed to Krishna, Horus, Dionysus, Odin, Mithra, Adonis, Osiris, Ba'al, Tammuz, Teŝub, Telepinu, Baldæg and a host of others. Unfortunately, it is not my job to enlighten or wake you up to the reality of the religious-political myth you're subservient to. That depends entirely on yourself.

Oh, and by the way, CaptainNemo is not a Christian, and detests Christians

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Christians, by-and-large, are unappreciated because they're rude, annoying, invasive, abusive, and egotistical. It is easy to see why people detest Christians; Christians are more concerned with telling other people how to live their lives, then making sure they themselves are living Biblical lives.

I don't blame a fictional character based upon scientific rational and grounding for detesting the most unscientific and irrational religion around. As a fun bit of trivia for you... Nemo is the Greek equivalent of "nobody." So, by that logic Jules Verne was really suggesting "Nobody detests Christians," implying a fun little mental game, as Christians always claim everyone is out to get them.

~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by apushforenlightment


I am continually impressed by the amount of "you'll never know 'til you experience it for yourself" that I receive on ATS. The persecution complex on here is unyielding. I am just going to assume it is your ego which tells you I have never had a mystical experience, or am not a spiritual individual myself. I assure you, you're ego is incorrect, and your vain presuppositions about my character are invalid.

You have made the fault, as most misguided theists do, or assuming that science and religion are competing for the same prize. Science is only concerned with observable, testable results and hypotheses. Science does not care if an imaginary faery in the sky has magical powers to intervene in your life. Science is concerned with the mechanics and processes of evolution, cosmology, and how the mind works. God has no place in science, and science doesn't care about God one way or the other. It is the theistic-ignorant who presuppose science wants no God. It is the fundamentalist mass who want to remove science because it is more comforting to say "God did it."

When you've evolved beyond the dichotomy of science and religion in arms against each other, we'll talk.

By the way... Chakras... Christ Consciousness... evolution of spirit... these are occult concepts.If you'd care to talk about the ascent of spirit to reunification with the godhead, we can. I feel that you're grasp of occult and esoteric sciences is weak at best though, as you still believe science and religion are in opposition.

~ Wandering Scribe

what was before Hell is what is about to come... the Garden.