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The "Islamic threat" was fabricated by the media to substitute the "Red threat" after the end of

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posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 12:51 PM
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Originally posted by GLontra
Crusades? Com'on, we are having a serious debate here. Anything that happened more than 300 years ago has no relevance at all.

Aww, you were doing so well until you said this.

Since fundamentalists follow the same Jihad today as they did almost 1500 years ago, I'd say it was very 'relevant'...




posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 12:59 PM
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Look: we can start to discuss every war and religious conflicts that happened in the human History since the times of Ancient Babylon.

But that has nothing to do with the problems of today. If we want to understand today's world problems we need to analyze no longer than 200 years into the past, 300 years at maximum.

The fact is: if you analyze the world History starting from the year 1712, exactly 300 years ago, you won't find any reference in the Western culture to any "Muslim threat" until very recently, until the last 20 years or so.

Study the history of the whole 18th century, from 1701 to 1799. You won't find any reference to any "Muslim threat". Quite the contrary: during that century, the Ottoman Empire tried to coexist peacefully with its neighbors, but was constantly harrassed, attacked, and invaded by two expansionist Christian Empires, the Austrian Empire and the Russian Empire.

Study the history of the whole 19th century, from 1801 to 1899. You also won't find any reference to any "Muslim threat".

Study the history of the 20th century, from 1901 until 1978. You also won't find any reference to any "Muslim threat".

By 1978, Islam was considered by everyone as just one more religion in the world, as any other religion. Just one more religion, like Hinduism, Buddhism or Taoism.

After the Islamic revolution in Iran, in 1979, some people started to spread the idea, during the 80's, that "Shiites" are "radical", as opposed to the Sunnis, that were "moderate". Ironically, all the "Islamic fundamentalist terrorism" that appeared later, in the 90's, was from Sunni origin, and not Shia.

Only after the end of the Soviet Union we started to hear about "Islamic terrorism", specially after the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center. The Soviet Union was officialy dissolved in December 26, 1991. The bombing of the World Trade Center was on February 26, 1993, exactly 14 months later.

"Coincidently", the Islamic fundamentalist organization Hamas, that was created in 1987 with the help of the Mossad, started its first suicide attacks against Israelis exactly in the same year: 1993

How convenient that the "Islamic threat" arrived "just in time" to supply the need for an "external enemy" of the West, right after the end of the "Red threat" represented by the Soviet Union.



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 01:01 PM
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Originally posted by FOXMULDER147

Originally posted by GLontra
Crusades? Com'on, we are having a serious debate here. Anything that happened more than 300 years ago has no relevance at all.

Aww, you were doing so well until you said this.

Since fundamentalists follow the same Jihad today as they did almost 1500 years ago, I'd say it was very 'relevant'...


Yeah?

And what about the more than 300 years without any "Jihad"?

How many generations of Muslims were born and have died during those more than 300 years without any "Jihad"?



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 01:09 PM
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Originally posted by freedomguy
reply to post by GLontra
 


This is a fabricated thread, there has been a very significant threat from extremist islamic terrorist groups especially since 1979 when the islamic revolution occurred in Iran.

I think the truth here is that the Soviet Union fell, and it was no longer a threat. Then what happened is that the real threat of islamic terrorist was brought to the front of the burner. It isn't a fabrication or islamaphobia when they really are trying to kill you.



Show me when they tried to "kill you" before 1993...



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 01:14 PM
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Nope, no Muslim Threat here until 9/11 exponentially increased it as an "every day word". I remember "fallout shelters" as a child, then aliens (thanks to Hollywood), and now Muslims. I am here, and I remember. I still want to be an astronaut and drink Tang, that would fulfill my life. Xenongod
edit on 31-3-2012 by xenongod because: human spellcheck

edit on 31-3-2012 by xenongod because: crazy perfectionist sometimes



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 01:17 PM
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reply to post by GLontra
 

They have been around forever, man. They used to assassinate the British during the days of empire, and the Brotherhood has been attacking western targets and affiliates in Egypt since it began almost 100 years ago.

The "Islamic threat" SEEMS to have suddenly arrived from nowhere, I agree, but that's because the media talk about it everyday since 9/11.

But it's always been there. It got more serious after 1979, and then it got even worse when the CIA armed the Taliban in the 80s to fight the Russians.



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 01:21 PM
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Originally posted by GLontra
Show me when they tried to "kill you" before 1993...


markhumphrys.com...



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 01:23 PM
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Let me give you some information about the theme of "suicide bombings".

In June of 1982, Israel invaded Lebanon.

The invasion of Lebanon by Israel in 1982 was the catalyst for the foundation of Hezbollah. Hezbollah was founded as an Islamic militant group in Lebanon, aimed to fight the Israeli invasion.

Hezbollah was the "pioneer" in suicide bombings.

The first one was on November 11, 1982, against IDF (Israel Defense Forces) headquarters in the city of Tyre, in Lebanon.

As you can see, Hezbollah and the suicide bombings only started after Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982. All the suicide bombings comitted by Hezbollah in the 1980's happened inside Lebanese territory.

So, the idea of "suicide attacks" inside the territory of Western countries didn't exist until the 1990's, after the end of the Soviet Union.

How convenient...



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 01:26 PM
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Originally posted by GLontra
Let me give you some information about the theme of "suicide bombings".

In June of 1982, Israel invaded Lebanon.

The invasion of Lebanon by Israel in 1982 was the catalyst for the foundation of Hezbollah. Hezbollah was founded as an Islamic militant group in Lebanon, aimed to fight the Israeli invasion.

Hezbollah was the "pioneer" in suicide bombings.

The first one was on November 11, 1982, against IDF (Israel Defense Forces) headquarters in the city of Tyre, in Lebanon.

As you can see, Hezbollah and the suicide bombings only started after Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982. All the suicide bombings comitted by Hezbollah in the 1980's happened inside Lebanese territory.

So, the idea of "suicide attacks" inside the territory of Western countries didn't exist until the 1990's, after the end of the Soviet Union.

How convenient...


Ok 1 point for you, now explain the countless thousands of other attacks.



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 01:28 PM
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reply to post by GLontra
 


Oh and you forgot to mention the part about why Israel invaded. Lets talk about that.

en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 01:30 PM
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Originally posted by FOXMULDER147
reply to post by GLontra
 

They have been around forever, man. They used to assassinate the British during the days of empire,


Who blew up the King David hotel in Jerusalem on July 2, 1946 along with 42 houses and killed more than sixty residents who were trapped inside?

Who murdered The U.S. appointed Count Folke Bernadotte of Sweden May 1948, the man who was in Palestine to mediate between the Arabs and the Israelis?

Nope, it wasn't the scary Muslims who dun it.



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 01:34 PM
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Originally posted by FOXMULDER147
reply to post by GLontra
 

They have been around forever, man. They used to assassinate the British during the days of empire, and the Brotherhood has been attacking western targets and affiliates in Egypt since it began almost 100 years ago.

The "Islamic threat" SEEMS to have suddenly arrived from nowhere, I agree, but that's because the media talk about it everyday since 9/11.

But it's always been there. It got more serious after 1979, and then it got even worse when the CIA armed the Taliban in the 80s to fight the Russians.




That doesn't constitute a "Muslim threat to the West".

During the years of the British Empire, it's obvious that many nationalist movements assassinated British citizens in many parts of the Empire, not only in Islamic parts. I don't think the IRA was an Islamic movement...

The Muslim Brotherhood from Egypt, one of the first "Islamic fundamentalist" organizations in the world, founded in 1928, was always only concerned about the internal affairs of Egypt, and never committed any kind of attack in Western countries. Ironically, the Brotherhood since the 1970's disavowed violence and sought to participate in Egyptian politics. That happened BEFORE the Iranian revolution of 1979. So, by 1978, not even the Muslim Brotherhood from Egypt could be considered a "Islamic terrorist organization".



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 01:38 PM
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Originally posted by freedomguy
reply to post by GLontra
 


Oh and you forgot to mention the part about why Israel invaded. Lets talk about that.

en.wikipedia.org...



We are discussing Islam here, no?

The "part about why Israel invaded" has nothing to do with Islam.

Israel was trying to fight the guerrilla of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), a SECULAR nationalist Palestinian organization, that was based in the south of Lebanon at the time.

The PLO was a SECULAR organization, formed by Palestinians from Muslim families, CHRISTIAN families and even atheist marxist Palestinians.

To blame Islam for the "terrorist acts" of a SECULAR nationalist organization like the PLO is the same thing of blame the Catholic religion for the "terrorist acts" of a SECULAR nationalist organization like the IRA, just because the Irish are mostly Catholics.

edit on 31-3-2012 by GLontra because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 01:47 PM
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Just throwing this out there....

in 20 years of being muslim, I've never heard any varying opinions on suicide, whether it be killing yourself with a jelly bean or "taking the infidel with you", suicide is a damnable sin......

fundamental issue in the whole farce they're funding....



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 01:49 PM
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Originally posted by GLontra

Originally posted by freedomguy
reply to post by GLontra
 


Oh and you forgot to mention the part about why Israel invaded. Lets talk about that.

en.wikipedia.org...



We are discussing Islam here, no?

The "part about why Israel invaded" has nothing to do with Islam.

Israel was trying to fight the guerrilla of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), a SECULAR nationalist Palestinian organization, that was based in the south of Lebanon at the time.

The PLO was a SECULAR organization, formed by Palestinians from Muslim families, CHRISTIAN families and even atheist marxist Palestinians.

To blame Islam for the "terrorist acts" of a SECULAR nationalist organization like the PLO is the same thing of blame the Catholic religion for the "terrorist acts" of a SECULAR nationalist organization like the IRA, just because the Irish are mostly Catholics.

edit on 31-3-2012 by GLontra because: (no reason given)


You are either a troll, or you are very stupid because you just said in a reply previously to consider the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, so I did and to understand it completely you have to understand why they invaded in the first place. The reason they invaded was because PLO was firing rockets into Israel.

Don't be naive and/or mislead people about islam extremists, there is far too much information to hold against these fascists to even consider for a moment they are innocent loving people. It makes me wonder if you are actually working for them trying to spread misinformation propaganda. That is the only thing I can think of, and it won't work with me.

I am done posting in this thread because even after you get debunked you come up with some other crap that "invalidates" what someone says.

Everyone else, have fun trying to get through to this muslim troll.



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 01:53 PM
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Originally posted by freedomguy

Originally posted by GLontra
Show me when they tried to "kill you" before 1993...


markhumphrys.com...


I will very gladly "debunk" that link that you so happily tried to present as an evidence of "Islamic terror attacks on the West".

It's very easy to debunk, thak you for using a so weak argument.


Battle of Broken Hill, Australia, 1915 - an isolated incident caused by a "Muslim" individual who regularly smoke strong marijuana, and was not linked to any organization, as noted by Wikipedia. Not different from any psychotic "killing spree" that we so often see in the USA, caused by mentally disturbed individuals.


Attacks in France in the Algerian War of 1954-62 - Are you that stupid? The National Liberation Front of Algeria could be called anything but never an "Islamic" organization. The National Liberation Front was a nationalist / socialist organization fighting against the French colonial rule in Algeria. Nothing to do with religion.


Palestinian "terror" in 1968 - Same as above. As was already widely discussed in this thread, the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), that started its "terror activities" in 1968, was never an Islamic organization. It was a secular organization that had members from any religion, including Arab Christians, and even people with no religion, like atheist marxists.



DEBUNKED!



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 01:56 PM
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Originally posted by freedomguy

Originally posted by GLontra

Originally posted by freedomguy
reply to post by GLontra
 


Oh and you forgot to mention the part about why Israel invaded. Lets talk about that.

en.wikipedia.org...



We are discussing Islam here, no?

The "part about why Israel invaded" has nothing to do with Islam.

Israel was trying to fight the guerrilla of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), a SECULAR nationalist Palestinian organization, that was based in the south of Lebanon at the time.

The PLO was a SECULAR organization, formed by Palestinians from Muslim families, CHRISTIAN families and even atheist marxist Palestinians.

To blame Islam for the "terrorist acts" of a SECULAR nationalist organization like the PLO is the same thing of blame the Catholic religion for the "terrorist acts" of a SECULAR nationalist organization like the IRA, just because the Irish are mostly Catholics.

edit on 31-3-2012 by GLontra because: (no reason given)


You are either a troll, or you are very stupid because you just said in a reply previously to consider the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, so I did and to understand it completely you have to understand why they invaded in the first place. The reason they invaded was because PLO was firing rockets into Israel.

Don't be naive and/or mislead people about islam extremists, there is far too much information to hold against these fascists to even consider for a moment they are innocent loving people. It makes me wonder if you are actually working for them trying to spread misinformation propaganda. That is the only thing I can think of, and it won't work with me.

I am done posting in this thread because even after you get debunked you come up with some other crap that "invalidates" what someone says.

Everyone else, have fun trying to get through to this muslim troll.



You keep trying to confuse people.

At this time, everyone has already realized that, previously to 1982, there were no "Islamic attacks" against Israel, only attacks by secular organizations.

I know that it's very hard for you to accept it, since you have never stopped to think, during your entire life, about the differences between "Arab terrorist" and "Islamic terrorist", and always considered Yasser Arafat to be just "one more Islamic terrorist".



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 02:23 PM
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reply to post by GLontra
 


I love the way you prove your ideas with hardcore evidence, and since I do consider the fabrication of an Islamic threat a real one by the media, I support you 100%. But the fact is, ever since the Crusades, Arabs (and consequently Muslims) have been seen as barbaric, by those Europeans who consider themselves 'more humane', or 'more advanced'.

The truth of the matter is, fundamental Muslims recognize the hatred that is spewed by fundamental Christians, and in turn take it upon themselves to fight the people who hate them and their religion.

This is probably why there are countless pro-Christian websites that try to make Islam look like its the biggest enemy out there. Its a historical battle that has been going on for a while. But one must remember who invented the concept of 'holy war' in the first place, and this was done at the hand of the Crusaders, not the Arabs.

In the era of conquest, Arabs merely did conquests for land and territory, neither of which are a religious requirement in Islam, and most definitely were not done to forcibly convert people since forcing to convert is against Islamic morale.

However, when I as a Muslim look at the groups sprouting left and right and demanding Islamic domination of the world, I know I'm not just looking at something the media has sprung up, but a real phenomenon, which baffles me since I've never even heard of 'jihad' in that sense until after 9/11. In other words, Al-Qaeda managed to upgrade itself from the elusive territorial terrorist group to a world wide phenomenon. Since in Islam, physical fighting is only allowed when one is under danger of being prosecuted religiously or otherwise, groups like Al-Qaeda have managed to convince fundamentals everywhere that Islam is certainly under attack by the West. That if they don't get up and do something about it, they will be obliterated and extinguished. Basically its a big kneejerk reaction, and these Muslims are CONVINCED that they are victims, or being victimized all the time for their religion, so they use this as an excuse to wage war on those they think are victimizing them. I am in no way saying their methods or their opinions are correct. I'm merely stating a fact.

The part which I've always been against, and the thing the non Muslim media always portrays, is the age old belief that its Islam itself that necessitates domination over the world etc. Which is a complete hoax. Islam doesn't even support missionary work, let alone forcibly convert people. But this does not mean that ignorant and gullible Muslims haven't been fooled into war by thinking that there is an enemy out to get them.

The reason I call these Muslims ignorant and gullible is because I myself feel that if there is such a threat against Islam as a religion, or that there are people out to get Muslims in the first place, one should use the 'enemy's methods against them, not invent lack luster, inhumane desperate attempts that do nothing but more harm to your own kind. If these Muslims are bothered by the fact that the West has more power and knowledge and science on their hands, they themselves should get up and form a culture that is equally developed or at least able to procure the same amount of power as the 'enemy' so one may actually consider competing with them. The guerrilla tactics that these Muslims use to defend their religion is not something we the educated will ever support.
edit on 31-3-2012 by nusnus because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 04:13 PM
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reply to post by nusnus
 


No doubt that there always existed some sort of bigotry against Muslims in Europe, but not only against Muslims, also against Hindus and other people.

But, in my opinion, in the post Industrial Revolution world, Islam was not perceived as a real "threat" to the West until after the collapse of the Soviet Union. For decades, even centuries, nobody talked about any "shock of civilizations" between Christians and Muslims.

The Crusades were totally forgotten by the time of the American Revolution, for example. Since the times of the American Revolution, until after the fall of the Soviet Union, for more than 200 years, nobody was hysterical about any "Muslim threat".



Also, during all that time, MODERATION was widespread in the Muslim world. Moderate Islam was the rule everywhere, except maybe for Saudi Arabia. I think that by 1978 Saudi Arabia was the only country in the world to impose "Sharia Law". Militant fundamentalist movements were rare, and were fringe movements, with no mass influence.

The "fundamentalist radicalization" of a significant part of the Muslim youth in the last 20 years is a consequence of the CIA working hard to foment fundamentalist organizations. And also, a result of all the "free advertising" that those radical movements got from the mass media. The invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq only helped to fuel that "radicalization process" even more.



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 04:28 PM
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we live in a world with people who hate each other.


No, we live in a world where there are conservatives who hate everyone.

Islam is a threat though, but it's been exaggerated by the rich elites who are the biggest threat.



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