TUMSHUKAIKO : 5 to 7 thousand years BC. Older than Caral !

Originally posted by Trueman
There is a old book (about 1940-1950), (I think the author last name was Loayza), about a theory of ancient chinese sailors in South America. The book, mentions a list several words of great similarity between the local language and chinese. I remember it also mention the "quipu", was also used in China. I will try to find it.

Besides that, there is also the story of "Zheng He ", but that probably happened just little earlier than Columbus, that will rule it out since Tumshukaiko is way much older that that.

www.chinapage.com...

Hi tru ,
Good stuff!
I know I stated I beleive this type of pyramid building could and should be local developments based on individual human development in isolated areas.
That being said, I also am aware of a very interesting map of fairly recent origin that deals with genetics. It is suggestive of major and broad Asian migration starting some 10k years ago.
This may or may not fit into the Land Bridge theory. If I can find a way to post it up here, I think you will see what I mean.
One thing for sure is that central Chinese genes spread through micronesia and all the way to Easter Island. So the Galopogos and the west coast of the Americas are not a big strech from there.
The only problem with Tumshunkakio is that the dates for those migrations are way newer than 7-10k years ago. But who really knows what all was going on back then. Playing pre history detective is fun non the less
cheers ljb

PS I would suggest that Projectile Typology should be able to put a date for Tumshunk to rest.
It certainly had to be neolithic and had to have knife, spear and other dateable stone tools.

Originally posted by Freeborn


The current accepted theory is that agricultural practices spread out from Mesopotamia around about 5-7000 BC.

Comment: That date has now been pushed back to around 8,000 BC; based on the findings of the sites in northern Syria

Originally posted by Xtrozero

In the middle between Egypt and the Americas is China and it has pyramids too, so does Russia (two in Russia are set up identical to the Egypt ones). One in China is called the White Pyramid and it stands 1000 feet tall (Egypt biggest is 450 feet tall).

46 meters actually (about 150 feet)












[

reply to post by Hanslune


Thanks Hanslune for joining us here

reply to post by longjohnbritches

Hello,
Is this the map in question?,


Here's the link to the fullsize one

www.madsci.org...
I'm trying to reside but Photobucket keeps crashing out, But that graphic is very informative, study it well and the movements of people around the pacific basin.
Also I believe that it shows one facet of these early migrations, and that is the fact we have been looking at migration into the new world in an extremely simplified way. There were many waves of movement into the world, the first being by the earliest peoples out of Africa. But what it also shows is the isolation of the people of beringia and their subsequent movement both east and west. I found a paper that states that the earliest human remains in Asia that have definable " asian" skeletal morphologies are only 9000 years old. And by asian morphology I mean the stereotype "chinese" north east asian.
All of the early remains are more representative of se Asian and or australaisian peoples.
So my idea is that there was a population that got isolated in beringia during the last ice age, that is widely accepted by the scientific community, but where I differ is that those people spread both into the west and east as the ice barrier lifted. And it was during this isolation that the definative Asian physical attributes developed.
The other clue is in the dentition of te people of Asia and the new world.
There are two kinds of teeth in modern humans in Asia, sundadonty and sinodonty.
Africans, caucasians, se asians( thias,viets,philipinos,khmers) australasians and pacific islanders are all sundadonts. While ne asians and most native Americans are sinodonts.
As I see it the differences in teeth reflect the difference in diet, the sundadonts were , for the most part generalist foragers, and the tooth structure confirms this. Sinodonty on the otherhand reflects the meat specific diet of the hunters of beringia ,in the colder climates, diet is almost exclusively meat based.

reply to post by punkinworks10


Hi punkin,
I am pretty sure it is not because the one that I would like to post does not include the Western Hemisphere.
I had the kids help me get my shinny new avatar, so I am sure they will help me with the map.
later ljb

reply to post by longjohnbritches


More on point to the conversation at hand is this, www.smithsonianmag.com..., an article on the possible influence of the jomon culture on south america.

reply to post by longjohnbritches


This is a map from a Russian study on esophogeal cancer.
A canser caused by what they call the flush gene.
The epicenter is where science beleives the use of alcohol began some 10k years ago.
The medical aspect is not to important in this thread but the emanation of the gene's disspersment is fasinating to me.
No matter what, it shows an awesome pattern.
I actually think it holds the key to the Asian migrations into the Americas.
And where the Clovis technology began????


www.medgenetics.ru...

What I was after was to illistrate the polynesian direction of the genes.

I definitely believe there had to be a third group of people with advanced technology, they eventually migrated to different points of the planet. I am not convinced about an asian root, but pointed it out as possible parallel developments.

Not too long ago, I made a thread about the founder of Tiahuanaco or Tiwanaku Culture. Sadly, it didn't call the attention of the members here. According to that, "Huyustus" (the founder), was blond with blue eyes.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

For us, this can be just a legend, but in Bolivia Huyustus has streets named in his honor and also an statue.

reply to post by punkinworks10


Your post made remember this:
www.huffingtonpost.com...

Originally posted by Hanslune

46 meters actually (about 150 feet)

Which one? The White pyramid?

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Originally posted by Hanslune


Which one? The White pyramid?

Yes but I suspect there may be more than one in China but the one I know about is 46 meters. You might find a non-fringe source for the dimensions

reply to post by punkinworks10


Hey punkin,
The map is awesome and right down my ally. You can zoom all over that baby.
Although it will take me awhile to sort out that kalidscope.LOL.
There seems to be a host of possibilites there. The large peices of white and green pie gr N. Korea?? and wt. Wrangle Island?? are really odd.
Your mention of tooth developement is very interesting as well.
thanks punkin ljb

One also needs to think about the fact that there was two migrations out of Africa and not just one constant one. Each one advance independently from the other until they were mixed. The first wave was actually more advance than the second wave, and we know this by the tools they used and what the second wave lacked.

The first wave made it to Australia 50,000 years ago and left Africa about 70,000 to 125,000 years ago. The second wave left Africa about 50,000 ago and went more north. It is under a general consensus that the second wave was the main population of Europe Northern Asia and the Americas, but maybe the first wave had already been in the Americas long before the second wave. The fact that the first wave over came ocean barriers to end up in Australia kind of lets us think they could have also have made it across the Bearing Sea to the Americas too. DNA shows a difference but more telling were the stone tools the first wave used that the second wave did not have.

But our first Homo species migration out of Africa was 1.5 million years ago and as resent as 100,000 years ago we had 3 to 4 different homo species of Homo sapiens, Homo neanderthalensis, Homo floresiensis, and maybe late surviving Homo heidelbergensi. This was all happening a long time ago and the Americas are not said to be populated until 25,000 years ago with the South America 12,000 years ago...

This all makes one think on whether the whole time scale for the Americas is off with us only knowing of the most resent one of 25,000 years ago.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
One also needs to think about the fact that there was two migrations out of Africa and not just one constant one. Each one advance independently from the other until they were mixed. The first wave was actually more advance than the second wave, and we know this by the tools they used and what the second wave lacked.

The first wave made it to Australia 50,000 years ago and left Africa about 70,000 to 125,000 years ago. The second wave left Africa about 50,000 ago and went more north. It is under a general consensus that the second wave was the main population of Europe Northern Asia and the Americas, but maybe the first wave had already been in the Americas long before the second wave. The fact that the first wave over came ocean barriers to end up in Australia kind of lets us think they could have also have made it across the Bearing Sea to the Americas too. DNA shows a difference but more telling were the stone tools the first wave used that the second wave did not have.

But our first Homo species migration out of Africa was 1.5 million years ago and as resent as 100,000 years ago we had 3 to 4 different homo species of Homo sapiens, Homo neanderthalensis, Homo floresiensis, and maybe late surviving Homo heidelbergensi. This was all happening a long time ago and the Americas are not said to be populated until 25,000 years ago with the South America 12,000 years ago...

This all makes one think on whether the whole time scale for the Americas is off with us only knowing of the most resent one of 25,000 years ago.

edit on 6-4-2012 by Xtrozero because: (no reason given)

Hi xtro,
I find the whole DNA fiasco hard to put a handle on.
The hardest is the OUT of Africa mitocondria sell. Eve being the only great ancestor of all modern humanity. Looks like you agree??
I still haven't seen a simple comprehensive guide to world wide dna.
Punkin's map holds an exception, maybe.
If I am not mistaken Australian Aboriginals exhibit skeletal characteristics of Neanderthals. So do I and a lot of my nothern Eruropean ancestors.
It is totally unlikely Neanderthal went by the wayside. I prefer to think he merly evolved as all life does when presented with the need or opportunity.
I heavely question the Pre Clovis idea at present for lack of physical evidence.
If you think there was human presencs in the Americas 25,000 years ago,
would you mind elaborating?? Thanks.
the best ljb

Originally posted by longjohnbritches
I heavely question the Pre Clovis idea at present for lack of physical evidence.
If you think there was human presencs in the Americas 25,000 years ago,
would you mind elaborating?? Thanks.
the best ljb

I think Clovis was just something to grab on to being basically the first stone tools found, but incorrectly suggested they were the oldest too. Clovis is basically 13k years at the most, but they have been found deep into South America too with about the same date, and I find that weird all by its self.

Since 1970 there have been quite a few Pre-Clovis sights found with a few of them actually under Clovis site by a few meters. Two that stand out are Cactus Hill, Virginia, Carbon dated to 18k to 22k and Monte Verde, southern Chile, at about 15,000 years ago. One is on the east coast and the other is as far south as humanly possible, so to think man came across some ice bridge 25k years ago I think is well within reason.

It seems the timeline for everything keeps getting push back more and more.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by longjohnbritches
I heavely question the Pre Clovis idea at present for lack of physical evidence.
If you think there was human presencs in the Americas 25,000 years ago,
would you mind elaborating?? Thanks.
the best ljb

I think Clovis was just something to grab on to being basically the first stone tools found, but incorrectly suggested they were the oldest too. Clovis is basically 13k years at the most, but they have been found deep into South America too with about the same date, and I find that weird all by its self.

Since 1970 there have been quite a few Pre-Clovis sights found with a few of them actually under Clovis site by a few meters. Two that stand out are Cactus Hill, Virginia, Carbon dated to 18k to 22k and Monte Verde, southern Chile, at about 15,000 years ago. One is on the east coast and the other is as far south as humanly possible, so to think man came across some ice bridge 25k years ago I think is well within reason.

It seems the timeline for everything keeps getting push back more and more.

hI XTRO
Monte Verde, I can buy into somewhat.
The dates are not far off from Clovis. There was a harth if I recall.
Also at least one projectile of some size.
It has been some time since I studied M.V.
But it is interesting now that you mention the place.
It is fairly close to the site in the OP. Well you know, in the scheme of things.
M V a part of the puzzle????
nice you mentioned that, ljb