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TUMSHUKAIKO : 5 to 7 thousand years BC. Older than Caral !

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posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 04:20 PM
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If you have interest in pre-columbian cultures, you must know the meaning of the title of this thread. This structure is older than Caral / Norte Chico, according to first studies.

To have an idea :


Caral is the most ancient city of the Americas, and is a well-studied site of the Caral civilization or Norte Chico civilization.


en.wikipedia.org...

Well....not anymore...



www.amautacunadehistoria.com...


Tumshukaiko is rectangular and measures are approximate 250 meters wide and 300 long and 25 meters high. Its structure is made of stone and used inside and outside stairs and galleries that cover the inside. Also found pottery and lithic events.


www.turismo.municaraz.gob.pe...

Tumshukaiko was originaly described as a ceremonial center of preceramic origins (2500 BC) at just 2 kilometers from Caraz.

www.amautacunadehistoria.com...


For the architectural features is described as having a political, religious and administrative, is constructed of carved stones joined with mud mortar, its architecture has walls surround with curved corners in stages, indoor enclosures forming superimposed platforms, we also found a wide staircase leading to upper level, where they performed the ceremonies of a political, religious and administrative.


www.deperu.com...

About 2008/2009 Dr. Lorenzo Samaniego Román, peruvian archeologist, explained that this structure is much more older than Caraz, about 5 to 7,000 years BC. Also, he said the agriculture developed in that area wasn't the reason of this settlement, actually devoled as a concequence of the population needs.

Regarding the name Tumshukaiko, there are two possible meanings ;

1.- Tumshu = Mass nervous brain. - Caico = We are or we are (second person plural). Sort of "We are the neural center"?

2.- Tumshu = Tuétamo or Marrow. - Kaicum = enclose; considered by them to the Center of the Earth.

www.deperu.com...

The videos are not in english, I am sorry.

First video is just beautifull views and music,


www.youtube.com...

In this one you can see Dr. Samaniego talking about his discoveries (english closed caption available).


www.youtube.com...

Believe it or not, this site was discovered in 1873.


This unique monument in the Callejon de Huaylas, holds many unknowns and mysteries under a layer aluviónica that protects hundreds of years. In 1873, Antonio Raimondi makes a first description Tumshukaiko registering as a muzzle, even destroyed, formed by large stone walls located horizontally, forming internal corridors and stairways.


www.mincetur.gob.pe...

I know this one needs time to be assimilated, all we thought about the origins of pre-columbian civilizations changed. For example, the civilization did not originate on the coast, but in the Andes.

The credibility of Dr. Samaniego must be the first thing to find out, in order to confirm his statements. He was elected governor in that area in 2011, that is definitely a good sign.

nuestraposicion.blogspot.com...

Also, it's totally understandable this information remainded unknown for about 4 years already, Seems very difficult to find sources in english.


edit on 30-3-2012 by Trueman because: (no reason given)




posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 05:14 PM
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For those not too familiar with ancient cultures, compare that with :


Egyptologists believe that the pyramid was built as a tomb for fourth dynasty Egyptian Pharaoh Khufu (Cheops in Greek) over an approximately 20 year period concluding around 2560 BC.


en.wikipedia.org...


The area around Tiwanaku may have been inhabited as early as 1500 BC as a small agriculturally based village.[


en.wikipedia.org...

This is changing the hole game fellows.



edit on 30-3-2012 by Trueman because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 05:34 PM
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More pics and info of Tumshukaiko :

carazcity.blogspot.com...

en.calameo.com...

Thanks for all your flags, but please say something before my head explodes



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 05:38 PM
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reply to post by Trueman
 


about 5-7 thousand BC is just about the time the fertile crescent in the middle east was developing human agriculture for the first time in history if I am not mistaken

though agriculture did spread around the world without connection within a thousand years or so (which is odd enough) it's hard to imagine people would start building such great civilizations so fast after or at the very same time in this case

truly amazing, and a real call out that something has to be fixed with our conception of history



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 05:50 PM
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Originally posted by trust_no_one
reply to post by Trueman
 

truly amazing, and a real call out that something has to be fixed with our conception of history


Thanks for your post. Exactly, one more time we found out how little we know about our origins.

Maybe there isn't an starting point.



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 05:55 PM
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I'd look for more verification on this, the stonework and murals look like they couldn't date from much more than 1500 BC. The structures at Caral were of adobe bricks, no artwork found and no pottery, maybe he is talking about oldest layers that pre-date the later constructions.

The frieze for example he is seen standing by is Chavin culture...


Chavin frieze


Chavin culture
edit on 30-3-2012 by Kantzveldt because: Add

edit on 30-3-2012 by Kantzveldt because: typo



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 06:15 PM
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reply to post by Kantzveldt
 


Yeah, more verification will be great. I've been trying to get more sources but I need help. ATS is the best place to find it.



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 06:22 PM
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Originally posted by Kantzveldt
no artwork found and no pottery



Regarding that, they described it like "Pre-ceramic architecture", that term is remarkable itself.

Anyway, did you read that part ?


edit on 30-3-2012 by Trueman because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 06:42 PM
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reply to post by Trueman
 




Yes, i read that. Everything seen in the videos though appears to be the Chavin architecture, who were adept at ceramics and stone working.



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 06:51 PM
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reply to post by Kantzveldt
 


It looks Chavin because is Pre-Chavin.



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 07:13 PM
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May need to check the source for a translation error, AFAIK he is not saying this is 5,000 to 7,000 years older than Caral, only that it's 5-7,000 old - which is the orthodox view.

Prensa Peruana

Link above gives respective dates of locations in Peru.

It's generally been accepted that agriculture near Caral began around 8,000 BCE, not much longer after it had in Mesopotamia.
New World Farming Began Around Same Time As Near East's



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 07:29 PM
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reply to post by Blackmarketeer
 


I didn't say 5-7000 years older than Caral.

I said : TUMSHUKAIKO : 5 to 7 thousand years BC. Older than Caral !

There is a dot (.) before the word "Older".



It's generally been accepted that agriculture near Caral began around 8,000 BCE, not much longer after it had in Mesopotamia.


In the case of Caral, it's mostly considered horticulture (previous to agriculture). About Tumshukaiko, they used the word agriculture.

edit on 30-3-2012 by Trueman because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 07:29 PM
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reply to post by Trueman
 




No, i;m sure that what looks like Chavin is Chavin, ie the above ground ruins, but they have looked at lower layers hence the site has been talked of in terms of around 2,500 Bc, maybe they have found older levels, i don't know, but much of what is being discussed refers to these considerations, a google translate,


Translated



Las investigaciones arqueológicas en Tuinshukaiko
edit on 30-3-2012 by Kantzveldt because: Link fix



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 07:43 PM
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reply to post by Kantzveldt
 


I know spanish 100% and the second archeologist in the video described it as previous to Chavin with great similitudes to Chavin. This is older than Chavin but linked to that culture.

Thanks for that link, great contribution.

edit on 30-3-2012 by Trueman because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 07:43 PM
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reply to post by Blackmarketeer
 

Hi blac
I can see why the op's head would be exploding.lol
The op has enough in it to make mine real queasy too!
First the op has 5-7 BC the BC adds 2kyrs.
I am not to familiar with either one of these sites but the dates of farming,
ceramics and village/town/city are somewhat established in the Americas.
What I don't understand is, What exactly is Tumshuk deemed to be?
the best ljb



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 07:52 PM
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reply to post by Trueman
 



Yes there is an intermediary stage known at the lower level, from the report translate



This lower layer, not yet finished digging, but thicker Tumshukaiko III corresponds to pre-Chavín.And whose relative chronology, by crossing evidence, would be contextualized to the late preceramic (2.200 BC).

Tumshukaiko is a site with early formative contextual architecture between the Galgada and Chavin Tumshukaiko only in the buildings are huge, but the architectural similarity reproduced with triangular carved stones to form the curved corners and monumental withdrawal tabs are chronological and continuity test preceramic cultural architecture





posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 07:54 PM
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reply to post by Trueman
 


Hi tru
Cool thread,
Can you boil something down for me??
What is the claim to fame for this new discovery?
What sets it apart? You seem to have a handle on all the info.
thanks ljb



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 07:58 PM
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reply to post by Kantzveldt
 


Exactly! Great job with that quote bro.



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 08:08 PM
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reply to post by longjohnbritches
 


No problem. The archeologist mentioned said this site is older than Caral (another site). He estimated Tumshukaiko was established about 5 or 7 thousands BC. We are trying to comfirm or debunk it. If true, this place would be older than Giza pyramid, that is mind blowing.
edit on 30-3-2012 by Trueman because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 08:23 PM
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Originally posted by Trueman
reply to post by longjohnbritches
 


No problem. The archeologist mentioned said this site is older than Caral (another site). He estimated Tumshukaiko was stablished about 5 or 7 thousands BC. We are trying to comfirm or debunk it. If true, this place would be older than Giza pyramid, that is mind blowing.

Tru
Super that's neat.
I am sorry I haven't read all the info you posted but it is there for reference.
One of my first points would be to try and get a more definitive date.
A 1K plus or minus would be cool for dates of 30 or 40 thousand years ago.
IMO an archeologist should have at least a carbon date of say 6,000 years BC plus or minus 300yrs before he starts making assumtions about sites in the western hemisphere.
thanks for your reply ljb



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