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Paradise or Oblivion - new documentary by The Venus Project

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posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 10:35 AM
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This is a documentary presenting Jacque Fesco's Venus Project which aims to establish a truly modern and scientific society around the globe by creating abundance through automation, thus getting rid of money, politics, war, hunger, pollution and most of the crimes. It talks about going further than the current ideologies that hold us back and using science and technology as a tool for social progress and true freedom.



www.paradiseoroblivion.com




posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 11:04 AM
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Thanks for sharing...will watch it later today or tomorrow when I have time.

In short can you explain in more detail what the video speaks of? Looks like it has some good reviews.



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 11:08 AM
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reply to post by gosseyn
 


I'm not sold on the Venus Project...there are still seems to be a pyramid structure of control and power within that system and that is the root cause of all the mess were in now.

They are trying to sell the idea to consumers on the main idea that its "free stuff"....which I don't believe anything is "free"...they leave a lot unexplained and address only the selling points such as "unlimited resources" and "free stuff" but make no mention on exactly how all of this will be MANAGED and by WHOM....

If there is a property tax...I'm against it....
If land is restricted by thugs in uniform and violence to "control' resources...I'm against it.
If it forces people to participate in the system I'm against it.
If people can't be left alone to live outside of this system and live off the land without being bothered, I'm against it.

I'm sorry I just don't believe anything is free...someone, somewhere is paying for it...and usually its against their will.



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 11:14 AM
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reply to post by gosseyn
 


Looks like it might be decent... let me get my popcorn ready, brb.



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 12:31 PM
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If we set up a resource based economy and some things are scarce it wont work.


Well then it wont work will it? Some things are always going to be scarce, especially things which are limited in quantity eg fossil fuels.

The main problem with their plans is that they think everyone is simply going to throw away their money. Not-going-to-happen.

Not to mention, there's no possible way we could create the amount of resources they are talking about without a serious work force.

No one is going to be on that workforce when they have everything they need and probably have more interesting things to do.

Also, the way they expect everything to be so integrated with computers is simply absurd. One little crash or solar flare and S will hit the F like never before.

Not to mention, who is going to build all this absurdly complicated infrastructure and mega-machines if no one is getting payed hmmm?

Furthermore, do they simply expect us to demolish everything we have just to build their perfect cities which probably wont be exceptionally better than what we have now?

I mean they even talk about surveying populations so we would know how many hospitals we would need and where they would need to go.

If they hadn't already noticed, we have perfectly good hospitals built in the areas where they are most needed and most relevant to help people.

In fact, I like living in my old style wood house in this remote little area near the ocean. All the symmetry and over-planning of their cities makes me nauseous.

His heart is in the right place, but in reality he is just way too over optimistic and doesn't really understand human nature as much as he thinks he does.

I respect him for what he is trying to achieve, but sadly I can already tell you right now that it will never manifest in the way he wants it to unfortunately.

The solutions to the worlds problems are going to be more complicated than simply tackling them with an overly optimistic head on approach like this.
edit on 30-3-2012 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 01:36 PM
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I answered in blue, didn't want to spend time copy-pasting stuff around.


Originally posted by ChaoticOrder

Well then it wont work will it? Some things are always going to be scarce, especially things which are limited in quantity eg fossil fuels. That is why it is said that this must be a global enterprise, and not of an isolated country.

The main problem with their plans is that they think everyone is simply going to throw away their money. Not-going-to-happen. That is why they foresee a "transitional period", where people would be informed of the ongoing progress.

Not to mention, there's no possible way we could create the amount of resources they are talking about without a serious work force.

No one is going to be on that workforce when they have everything they need and probably have more interesting things to do. This is also part of the transitional period where money would still be used until a significant progress enough is made

Also, the way they expect everything to be so integrated with computers is simply absurd. One little crash or solar flare and S will hit the F like never before. This is a minor technical obstacle, and even the world we live in today would crumble if that happened

Not to mention, who is going to build all this absurdly complicated infrastructure and mega-machines if no one is getting payed hmmm?This is part of the transitional period

Furthermore, do they simply expect us to demolish everything we have just to build their perfect cities which probably wont be exceptionally better than what we have now?We can build on empty lands, and destroy or keep old cities as museum or totally recycle them. Those cities would use the state of the art of everything we scientifically know today.

I mean they even talk about surveying populations so we would know how many hospitals we would need and where they would need to go.

If they hadn't already noticed, we have perfectly good hospitals built in the areas where they are most needed and most relevant to help people.There are billions of people without proper medical attention around the world. Again, this is a global project, where every human being counts.

In fact, I like living in my old style wood house in this remote little area near the ocean. All the symmetry and over-planning of their cities makes me nauseous.You could live your life as you wish, where you wish, no one would force you to do anything, and you could benefit from the efficiency of the new global system, until you decide that it is better for you to contribute to the well being of the human species by contributing in the way you want.

His heart is in the right place, but in reality he is just way too over optimistic and doesn't really understand human nature as much as he thinks he does.

I respect him for what he is trying to achieve, but sadly I can already tell you right now that it will never manifest in the way he wants it to unfortunately.Fresco is 95 years old and has been working on those issues for a long time, and he is not alone. Human nature is not what you think it is, human beings are not greedy by nature, they don't try to accumulate material things by nature, but human beings are what the environment in which they live causes them to become. In a world of scarcity, they will act accordingly, and today scarcity is artificially maintained.

The solutions to the worlds problems are going to be more complicated than simply tackling them with an overly optimistic head on approach like this. I totally understand that you have difficulties to grasp the meaning of such a project, and if I understand you, it is the first time you hear about something like that. The questions you ask are easy questions and have been asked and answered countless times. You react with the values that the current environment has engraved in your mind since your birthday, and it is not easy to get out of that intellectual trap. I suggest that your take your time by watching and reading on other related material. Maybe you have heard about zeitgeist addendum and zeitgeist moving forward? Those 2 documentaries talk about these topics in more details. And you can also watch the 13 hours documentary that's in my signature.
edit on 30-3-2012 by gosseyn because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 02:03 PM
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reply to post by gosseyn
 



I totally understand that you have difficulties to grasp the meaning of such a project, and if I understand you, it is the first time you hear about something like that.

It seems you have me backwards. I have seen all the Zeitgeist docos and many other documentaries of this nature. A few years ago I actually believed Project Venus was the closest thing to a true plan for change anyone had ever come up with. Since that time I have learnt many things which have developed my understanding of these issues past the first phase of "yes this is it".

The transitional phase will never happen because people are too locked into their ways. Even you have tried to describe how I am locked in. No I am not, but what I can see, like you can see, is how deeply everyone else is locked in. You don't really understand people if you think they are simply going to ditch everything they have to start what is essentially an experiment on society into uncharted territories.

People are scared of extreme change like that, especially when these new types of societies have never been tested before. It needs to be a natural process that happens on its own over time. We can't enforce a transitional process, the process must happen naturally in it's own way until one day we find ourselves living in the type of futuristic world they describe.

If you honestly think the world is going to unite, share resources, and work together so easily you are vastly mistaken. Just look at the racial tensions on ATS with this Zimmerman story, and this is a conflict between people that share the same nation. There is so much tension in the world right now, with things such as the Iranian nuclear crisis and the global financial meltdown.

We are simply in no state to even consider a sudden transition into a society like this. People are no where near ready enough or willing to accept something like this at this point in our history. If we ever do reach a state of abundance like they describe it will happen over a very long period of time in a natural way in accordance with our ability to understand and accept it.

But I still highly doubt, that even if such a state of abundance was achieved, that money would become obselete. Some things are simply too scarce to be handed out willy nilly. And even items that are abundant need to be controlled in some way. Some one or some group might decide to ravage the supplies and leave everyone else to fight over the scraps.

The only viable way to easily control the amount each person is entitled to is if they have some sort of "tokens of exchange" (aka money) which in turn places a limit on how much they can take from the supplies. It would be fairer if each person was paid according to the amount of time they dedicate to the mundane jobs (which will always exist).

There are many more factors that need to be considered when thinking about a project like this. It's no where near as simple as it looks on the surface. We have a bunch of stuff so everyone can just take anything they need. It's just not that simple, no where near that simple. You really need to consider the deeper aspects of human nature to understand it properly.
edit on 30-3-2012 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 02:47 PM
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reply to post by ChaoticOrder
 


Let's start with the so called "human nature". It is not what you think it is.
I will quote the conclusion of an essay by Marshall Sahlins, a well known anthropologist.


It’s all been a huge mistake. My modest conclusion is that Western civilization has been largely constructed on a mistaken idea of “human nature.” (Sorry, beg your pardon; it was all a mistake.) It is probably true, however, that this mistaken idea of human nature endangers our existence.


I highly recommend you to read that essay, it's a fairly long read but it's nothing compared to the importance of the topic. Then after that, let's talk about your thoughts on the subject. Then if it is not enough, I will say it with my own words.



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 03:22 PM
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what happens when over population starts becoming more and more of a problem? individuals living longer,, individuals needing more food for their longer lives,, individuals multiplying with individuals that all live longer,,

the problem is humans can all live to live,,, but there are humans who are grappling with innovative sciences that advance the species ability technologically/medicinally/etc... without these attempts and successes of progression, humans can just live and reproduce live simply,, but the urge and possibility to advance will always be lingering,, it just happens to have been put into execution a while ago, and is picking up speed as of late..



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 03:46 PM
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Not to crash the party, but creating an abundant supply of commercially produced food and medicine for every man, woman and child on Earth would just lead to an unmanageable population explosion.

As cruel as it sounds, we need things like disease, famine and natural selection to keep ourselves in check. Technology without self-sufficiency only leads to dependence on a system over which the user has no control.

Self-sufficiency and family planning is they key, not overfeeding the fish tank!


edit on 30-3-2012 by DeReK DaRkLy because: ...



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 08:49 PM
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reply to post by Sly1one
 


There is NO tax, for there is NO Money in the society and Technology, the real kind the buried stuff, does all the needed manual labor and work. Well anyway, not sure if he is admitting to the real buried stuff. But people are FREE, they can learn, create, volunteer, and spend time with their families. Nothing Forced.

I do believe there are no Church's or Temples or Us Against Them religions in his world.

Reality Check is this, its the only real legal system there is, but most don't know that.

Money is slavery! It also has winners and losers built in! Slavery is a Massive Crime Against Humanity.

On Top Of This, ALL HUMANS have the right equally to share ALL THE RESOURCES AND LAND of planet earth, they are BORN WITH THIS AND DO NOT EARN IT!

We are not slaves.

So, He Is Right!

But, even paradise could be hell if this is operated under a pyarmid structure. It has to be run from the bottom up by councils of citizens, half women and half men, and everyone contributing, with watchdog committees of citizens.

So, yes I agree with his system, no I don't agree with a pyramid running it, it has be grass roots run and equality between men and women.

I personally don't like too much high tech looking homes!

The same idea in my thread here though, since we all already own and share equally in all the resouces of earth and its only by theft and crime that any privileged group tells us otherwise, then we can solve world hunger and homelessness without forcing any one to work for your factories or any slavery, only education and voluteering with your talents, for those times in life when your able to, IF you want to, then there is lots to do.(and children should be encouraged to vounteer and try out job roles in school all the way up, or we would be back in the cave men days with really good advanced educations and retraining for all people, so in reality we wouldn't lack people or ideas),

www.abovetopsecret.com...
No Matter What Your Politics, Why Is Anyone Living In Poverty?


Fishing in the Phoenix Earthship

I prefer this look to the Sci Fi one for my home. An eco farm with lots of individual land and gardens and flowers around, privacy, I like lots of privacy, but on 50 acres many familiies could have a 1/3 acre and their own homes, and share central buildings to run businesses, commercial kitchens, and conferences if they wanted, with greenhouses, in their homes, fruit and nut trees, greenhouses for everyone, and ground crops, lots of space for kids, and organic eggs from free range chickens and several milk cows for RAW CERTIFIED MILK and good natural butter, yogurt that has the B vitamins that your bones and teeth actually need, not destroyed.

There is no reason to do it the Sci Fi way except for the few that like that.

Now I want the real technology out. So its not just wind and solar. But these houses are built from recycled things, require no heating or cooling (I would need some I like it warm, everyone says my house it too warm but I am in agony in cold), and recycles water, (I would do that for everythign but the drinking water and use clean well water for that), but you know it can be modified.

If people said No To Slavery, within months everyone would be in their own homes and growign good food, still sharing, still needing world markets but wit alot more survival and choices. And Beauty!!!!

Beauty is really important.

There is simply ZERO reason this isn't already done and all the deaths and suffering are literally CRIMES of GREED, and STEALING OUR SHARED RESOURCES.

So If anyone tells anyone they are leeches off the system and think they're so entitled when they're not, they should hand them the bills, for what the elite theft has cost them and their families without any slave labor to their factories, their own rights, I'd put that in the millions per person and for the stresses, pain, trauma I'd call that millions more.

No civlized society runs the way ours does or forces slaves. That is absolute evil.



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 09:03 PM
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Note they always show earthships in desolate landscapes. Like I said, half men and half women always in all councils and no winner take all politics. We need a lot more female energy running things. Beauty is an actual need for health. Trees, plants, grasses and gardens, flowers, beautiful beautiful homes for everyone.

All lakes and all natural jewels, shared by all, but not with motels and rich fleecing people, beeches and access to all people, no theft of the jewels.

There should be the advanced technology out and the jump gates so the world would small indeed. And all toxins cleansed already.

Clean environment, clean waters, peace on earth.

Ample housing, always extra's everywhere of all sizes for all families, so that moving would be as easy as looking it up on the computer. With several months to a year to transfer ownership and change your mind, because this is about everyone sharing ownership, but we still have individual ownership, squatters rights, and inalienable rights they couldn't take from a person even if they committed a real crime, not the psuedo crimes they list.

And most of those overturned. No, you don't get to dictate whether people have outdoor cloths racks, or dryers, or plant flowers in their front yard, or run a small business from their own homes.

No, you don't get to control food and natural resources of this planet, the herbs and food belong to all, and we don't want your frankenstein food so shove it.


edit on 30-3-2012 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 12:46 AM
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I took notes on this, so a transcript for part of it.

Its a really good video and addresses key elements, while the beginning is on the hellzone attributes our current system has built in and produces in people like programs. Its not their souls are better. If you were raised in a head hunting society, you would be hunting heads too! This is programming from cradle to grave.

The part about if this is UN or bloodline directed is dealt with, and its for the people, and for individuality and equality of all. In fact to me its the only legal system there is, for we have this level of technology and resources currently with lots more hidden. And slavery and stealing land, resources, and thus opportunities from people is extreme harm and crimes even if just weighed under basic common law.

This is something I'm very passionate about. Lifelong visions by some of my family members, we've always seen this kind of thing, in general.

I broke it up into sections so 3 posts.



Paradise or Oblivion



Notes: (my own comments are in brackets)



--- (from 19:04 on): Albert Einstein stated

"We cannot solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

---Earth is still abundant with resources!

Our practice of rationing resources through monetary control is no longer relevent and is actually counter productive to our very survival.

---Today, we have highly advanced technologies (they show our conventional ones and this is just the tip of the ice berg, we're spage age and using very exotic energies now) but our social and economic system has not kept up with our technological abilities, which could otherwise easily create a world for all, free of servitude and debt!



---There is not enough money to feed and house all people on this planet, let alone accomplish these more ambitious ends. But earth has more than enough resources to meet the needs of all people, but only if managed intelligently.


edit on 31-3-2012 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 12:46 AM
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A SOCIAL ALTERNATIVE: RESOURCE BASED ECONOMY



---A socioeconomic system in which all goods and services are available to everyone, without the use of money, barter, credit, debt, or servitude of any kind.



---A resource based economy operates on the basis of available resources and makes those resources available to every human being on earth, free of charge, withthout a price tag!



---So we have today, more than enough resources to build a far more advanced society.



I'm not talking about limited handouts so people just get by, I'm talking about a very advanced civilization.



We have the resources, we have the technology, all we have to do is apply it!



---One of the main aspects of the Venus Project is to eliminate scarsity. This is where the technology comes into play. Becuase if we set up a resource based economy, and some things are scarse, it won't work.

If you set up a resource based economy in a society that has no resources, it won't work.

---So today, with our technology, we can make things available, we can eliminate scarsity, we can create an abundance.

As long as we can create that abundance, that will eliminate greed, and selfishness, and alot of crime, alot of aberrant behavior.

---A social system can be designed so all can live fully and constructively. If the powers of science and technology are directed toward human and environmental concern and overcoming the artificial scarsities of our debt based monetary systems.

---All people, regardless of political philosophy, social customs, or religious differences ultimately depend upon the same resources: clean air and water, airable land, medical care, and a relevant education.

---I think if you pledge allegiance to the earth and everyone on it, that would be the way to go for the future.

---The human species is a single family, and the world is home to everyone! Neither people nor nations can co-exist separately any longer.

---No more separate nations, so everyone can go everywhere....If you want an end to war, you must declare the earth Common Heritage!

---We must declare the earth's resources common heritage for all the worl'ds people.

---This has nothing to do with those who want to form and elite world order with themselves and large corporations in control and the rest of the world subservient to them!

To the contrary, a global resource based economy enables all people to reach their highest potential, where they can thrive and grow in a society that works in their behalf, a society that protects and preserves the environment as well. One that understands that we are part of nature not separate from it.
(in bold as some think the solutions are NWO, when some of us have always seen global solutions that were positive and about sharing the power, resources and abundance with all, and where all count very much, and their voices)



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 12:46 AM
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INCENTIVE:

---Some question what would happen to incentive if needs were met without our having to work to obtain them. The question assumes that humans have no desires beyond basic needs!

---If that were true, there would be no inventors, writers or teachers.

---People work with passion on the things that interest and challenge them.

---Let enable ALL people to have the opportunity to partake in the greatest challenge one can have, improving our world for everyone.

(Currently billions are kept in the margins and treated horrible in our own countries and in third world ones. And we all have dreams, that most cannot accomplish, working at meaningless jobs, or not working at all, barely existing, or not existing at all)

---Individuality will be emphasized, rather than uniformity! This social arrangement will generate a new incentive system that values the protection of the environment and social concern rather than the shallow self centered goals of wealth, property and power. (but in reality in a system of abundance, high creativity, invention and volunteering, we are all very wealthy indeed)

---It does not call for uniformity, it absolutely calls for diversity. The more diverse people are, the more individuality, so we emphasize individuality, creativity, innovativeness.

This is the essentials of the design!

It is not a group of scientists telling peopel what to do, how to live, where to go, what to follow!

---Motivation and incentive exist when people have meaningful tasks....creative, challenging and instructive endeavors.

However motivation and incentive die in the daily grind of boring and repetitive required to earn a paycheck.

---If you hand things out to people, they aren't going to work anymore because they don't need it, they got their housing, clothing, motion pictures and entertainment. Why go work? Work is painful, its monotonous, its boring.

In the future, if people have access to all their needs, but they don't have any challenges, this is where it goes to pot.

So people constantly are challenged by new things in our schools. We challenge them with many things.... If you're well fed and well clothed that doesn't stop your brain from working....There are many millionaires that work 18 hours a day and don't have enough time!

---It has to do with your background, your education.

The more you know about oceography, astronomy and all of that, the more interest, the more alive you are!

...New incentive system not monetary oriented, its problem solving oriented.....you see the world become a better place.

(now without worrying about survival, you can really work at what your dreams and interests are, your hobbies, passions, and volunteer at what your good at. Counseling, Programs with Wild Dolphins and Whales interactions, Health, but with smaller work hour packages, and lots of retraining. Music, photography, cooking, new ways of doing things, teaching others....)



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 02:16 AM
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Originally posted by gosseyn
reply to post by ChaoticOrder
 


Let's start with the so called "human nature". It is not what you think it is.
I will quote the conclusion of an essay by Marshall Sahlins, a well known anthropologist.


It’s all been a huge mistake. My modest conclusion is that Western civilization has been largely constructed on a mistaken idea of “human nature.” (Sorry, beg your pardon; it was all a mistake.) It is probably true, however, that this mistaken idea of human nature endangers our existence.


I highly recommend you to read that essay, it's a fairly long read but it's nothing compared to the importance of the topic. Then after that, let's talk about your thoughts on the subject. Then if it is not enough, I will say it with my own words.

I understand all that. But what you aren't understanding is what I'm saying. Just because our current western societies are founded on corrupt and twisted ideas of what true human nature is like, does not mean people are going to easily throw out those ideas and wake up to the truth. They are too deeply locked into their ways to even consider their beliefs about life could be so wrong on such a fundamental level. That idea disturbs and scares them. You need to consider the actual likelihood of this idea ever being accepted, especially at this point in time. You can dream about it all you want, you can even start non-profit research centers to refine the plans and concepts, but if people are unwilling to accept the change it simply wont happen. Let me know when you manage to make one single person throw away their money. Now imagine how hard it would be to make everyone do that, especially those who are rich. It's so impossible and futile that these plans are nothing but pipe dreams that might have a chance of working only hundreds of years from now.
edit on 31-3-2012 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 02:22 AM
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If it all crashes people can start to reform community to community and share and get group projects going that still value individual freedoms and rights and create a future rather than death and misery and want, which is growing more and more now, as economies are collapsing. Greece and US are examples.

If governments can be reached to become partners with groups of citizens bringing this up, councils of citizens education every region then this could be done painlessly.

The money you say won't give up is the cause of all the pain and suffering, starvation and war, lack and homelessness, in this world, and the mega corporations and the environmental destruction, and the death of the oceans, and the fascism, the NWO, the toxins and pollutions not to mention why some countries have Sharia and very backwards conditions, to give perks to their primarily male working group of slaves.

That very same money needs to go.



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 04:16 AM
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Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
I understand all that. But what you aren't understanding is what I'm saying. Just because our current western societies are founded on corrupt and twisted ideas of what true human nature is like, does not mean people are going to easily throw out those ideas and wake up to the truth. They are too deeply locked into their ways to even consider their beliefs about life could be so wrong on such a fundamental level. That idea disturbs and scares them. You need to consider the actual likelihood of this idea ever being accepted, especially at this point in time. You can dream about it all you want, you can even start non-profit research centers to refine the plans and concepts, but if people are unwilling to accept the change it simply wont happen. Let me know when you manage to make one single person throw away their money. Now imagine how hard it would be to make everyone do that, especially those who are rich. It's so impossible and futile that these plans are nothing but pipe dreams that might have a chance of working only hundreds of years from now.
edit on 31-3-2012 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)


Ok then, if you agree with me on the fallacies of the so-called human nature, what is left is the fear of change. No one asks anyone to throw their money if it is still the only way to survive, there must be a viable alternative. And no one ever said that this would be easy, or that it would happen overnight. But those ideas have to get out and people have to know that science and technology have arrived at a sufficient level of efficiency in order to offer alternatives. What is shown on the documentary is not exotic technology and sci-fi magic, but can be done with what we know today, this is very important to understand. Also, what is shown on the documentary is still obviously non-existent, it means that things might not look like that in the future, but the important ideas are there. I don't know if we will get there in 20, 30 or 50 years, but if we do nothing, nothing will happen, if we don't get the ideas out in public, no one will ever know. Also, you are taking into account the current population, but after 1 or 2 new generations of living in a resource based economy, the face of mankind would change, and people would never go back to a rubbish system full of ideology like today's, it would feel normal. Just look at how people were living in past centuries, it looks stupid to us today, but the difference today is that we can start to design the future, we can't let history be made like it was made before, randomly, ideologically, with the amount of destruction and suffering that it brings. It is said that when an idea is supported by 10% of the population, this idea will be adopted by the majority of the population, sooner or later, that's called critical mass.



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 06:23 AM
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Ok then, if you agree with me on the fallacies of the so-called human nature, what is left is the fear of change. No one asks anyone to throw their money if it is still the only way to survive, there must be a viable alternative. And no one ever said that this would be easy, or that it would happen overnight.

Exactly, that's what I've been saying this whole time. It's going to take a very long time before people are ready to accept something like this, and it wont be easy. It's something which will happen naturally over time. Eventually we will find ourselves in a state of abundance so high a society without money might become some what plausible. But even then money isn't really the problem with society. It's the manipulation of money. You need to fix the monetary system rather than throwing the whole thing down the drain. Since the dawn of time people have conducted trade and barter to exchange items of worth. Things are much more complicated than simply assuming we can just hand stuff out left right and center completely free to who ever wants them.

As I have stated, some things will NEVER be made abundant. Some mundane jobs will ALWAYS exist. Some people will want everything while doing nothing. Things can't realistically work like that. There needs to be a way of controlling who gets what in a fairer way than simply handing it out to who ever asks for it. It's way too optimistic to assume things will ever work like that. Money is a very important tool, it's completely naive to just assume we don't need it at all. We will always need it. It took me a long time to come to that understanding but I realize that now. I used to honestly believe if we just got rid of money and shared everything it would all be so much better. But that belief was simply indicative of my underdeveloped understanding of society and human nature.

When my computer breaks I don't simply throw it into the trash, I figure out how to fix it so it can serve its purpose properly without causing me problems. It would be much easier to simply fix the underlying problems with money than simply throw the whole thing in the bin and assume you can achieve a better level of efficiency and fairness. The truth is that no matter how abundant any resource is, it can become scarce if too many people are trying to take too much of it. The truth also is that some people will take much more resources compared to the amount of work they put into the system to help the society. There are always going to be limits and quotas and a way to measure the amount of resources any individual is entitled to or the system will break down.

We will never reach a state where they will just say "take as much as you want of what ever you want"... it's absurd and unrealistic! The only way it can possibly work is if people are entitled to an amount which is relative to their contributions to that society. It's the only logical and truly FAIR way of operating any society. Therefore money will always be needed. If you want to make sure that people can always buy what they need when they need it, then you need to make sure they get payed fairly. Instead of having CEO's and shareholders payed ridiculous sums of money, instead of letting bankers screw us all over and rob us blind with inflation, instead of having the average Joe work his skin to the bone for his whole life while never really earning anything significant, you need to ensure that the system is fair and that equality is considered an important aspect of that society.

That is much more realistic and MUCH MORE likely to be accepted by the masses rather than saying "everyone can just have what ever they want despite what they do". And even though it's a lot easier to create the type of equality I'm talking about, it still doesn't happen does it? People still advocate a type of capitalism where some people can make as much in a single day as others make in their whole lives. It's greed that does that. They believe one day they could be the super rich CEO who earns all that money. That greed drives them and opposes any idea of equality and fairness. Yet here you are thinking people are simply going to say "hey, yeah, lets all just pool our resources together and take what we want from it when ever".

You need to get real and stop believing in illusionary fairy tale ideas that will never manifest for a very long time, if they ever do. There's no real benefit to advocating these ideas, you will NEVER get anywhere in your time. You'll one day find yourself on your death bed wondering where you went wrong, why people never listened to you, why the ideas never got a firm foothold in society, and why people have rejected these notions of equality and prosperity. If you instead look closer at our problems and seek out more realistic ideas which can honestly be manifested you may just find yourself dying a very happen person knowing you did something to actually help change this world for the better.
edit on 31-3-2012 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 06:58 AM
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I can clearly see that the topic of the "human nature" is not settled between us. So, in order to go forward in our discussion, we need to settle it.

People do not accumulate things that are not scarce. Despite the fact that the air we breathe is truly vital to our survival, we do not make stocks of breathing air, why is that? It is because the environment makes us who and what we are. There is no such things as a living organism that you could define isolated from its environment. There is no "greedy human nature" isolated from the environment in which the living being evolves. If something we need is abundant, we just take what we need, because we know it is pointless to accumulate things that are abundant.

Again, you judge the proposed system with the values that have been engraved within you since the day you were born. You have to realise that it is not money you need, but the things that money can offer you. You don't need money, but you need food, water, shelter, warmth, transport etc.. Those things can be made abundant.

Please, define what is for you the "human nature".



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