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Providing clarification for Islamic theology

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posted on Mar, 29 2012 @ 11:57 PM
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www.abovetopsecret.com...

The above thread contains a video, which depicts an extremely clear and incontrovertible example of the type of Islamic behaviour, which we in Western society find so objectionable.

I know that there are individual Muslims who use this forum, who are not bad people. I also believe that some of you genuinely would not condone the sort of behaviour shown there.

I'm discovering, however, that there is an enormous problem within Islamic theology, in terms of the concept of abrogation. It is primarily this concept, I believe, that has allowed the integrity of Islamic theology to become compromised; and it also explains how moderate, legitimately God-fearing, truly spiritually active Muslims on the one hand, and radical, Godless, murdering extremists on the other, can both find justification for their behaviour, from the same document.

In other words, Islam's theological message did not apparently remain consistent over the course of Muhammed's life. So some Muslims can claim that Islam is not coercive, and (as nusnus quoted to me) quote the following:-

2:256. There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut [idolatry] and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower.

(Emphasis mine)

Yet later, we find this:-

9:5. Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun [unbelievers] wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat [the Islamic ritual prayers]), and give Zakat [alms], then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Because 9:5 is the verse that was given later in Muhammed's life, of the two, this is considered to have theological validity, with the earlier, 2:256, thus having become illegitimate. A more principled Muslim, on the other hand, (or one who, all false modesty aside, I am more likely to consider to be in genuine contact with God) is likely to want to consider the earlier passage legitimate, with the latter acting as theological justification for radicals, for the murder of non-Muslims.

My own interpretation of this issue, truthfully, is that the former passage is legitimate, and the latter passage is not. Christianity suffers from a similar problem, in the sense that there are certain areas of the Bible which can be construed as justification for violence. As 2:256 above says, the appropriate form of behaviour should be self evident, but If a person is not sufficiently spiritually active in genuine terms, (such that they have a direct, experiential knowledge of the divine attitude, irrespective of written theology) or otherwise posessed of a sufficient degree of intelligence, then they can be unable to understand that certain elements of theology are not legitimate, and can be inserted by unscrupulous parties, primarily for the purposes of social control.

The New Testament has one particular passage (John 14:6) where Jesus supposedly declares that, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." I have personally come to the conclusion that this passage is theologically illegitimate, and that it was inserted by unknown parties (most likely early Catholicism) for the purposes of social/political control; as it claims spiritual exclusivity for Christianity. It is also said passage, and the attitude which it encouraged, which was largely responsible for the degree of murder that was carried out by early Christians.

Christians in particular have often warned against considering specific elements of the Bible as illegitimate, claiming that to do so would lead to the entire book being thrown out. While I do consider the Bible valuable, I will say that as far as I am concerned, if that should prove necessary, I would not be averse to it.

Islam is also not the only religious system which I have attempted to investigate, and it is overwhelmingly the system about which I have the least knowledge. The other religions I have looked at are Christianity, Judaism, (to a much lesser extent) Hinduism, New Ageism as derived from certain channelled sources, and neo-Paganism.

The single most important lesson that I have learned from all of these, is that there truthfully is no scripture in existence which should be considered infallible. None of them are; and if there is ever a conflict between the preservation of life, and the scripture, then it is the scripture which is to be thrown out, rather than murder committed.

The main reason why I have come to consider Abrahamic monotheism in general (that is, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) to be repressive to the point of dehumanisation, is because my own observation of morality has ultimately led me to agree with the sovereignty movement; that the only legitimate ethical law in existence, is the prohibition against causing tangible forms of either harm or loss to others. As recommendations alone, dietary guidelines in particular can be beneficial, but as binding laws to the point where physical harm is prescribed as a penalty for violation of them, I consider them wrong.

I think an important part of spiritual and moral maturity, is developing the ability to think for oneself, where these religious systems are concerned; and to understand that a point must be reached, where a knowledge of right and wrong exists, irrespective of scriptural theology. I have come to believe that a lack of this, is the main reason behind Islam's current popularity. Islam's repressive legalism is viewed as an antidote to the belief that human beings are fundamentally incapable of positive self-management, and that the punitive brutalisation of the individual that is prescribed by Sharia law, is therefore necessary for the survival of the collective.

In the end, all roads lead to Rome. Individual sovereignty, self-management, and personal responsibility are always the answer.





posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 12:12 AM
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Petrus, I'm guessing I fall under the muslims who aren't bad people in your book, but I gotta jump up and say this one thing....

I LOLed at the #ing clowns in that video (the one in the linked thread). They are wahhabi/salafi muslims, and are becoming more and more alien almost daily due to their interpretations.

For example:

We are taught to follow the law of the land.

Sufism, true sunnism, and shiism, interpret this to be across the board. Whichever land you live in because Allah commands "do not cause mischief" in the Qur'an.

Salafi's nitpick, and say no, obey the law of the land if the law is islamic law...

The problem with their logic is so obvious in the fact that if the "law of the land" meant only islamic law, then it wouldn't have been called the "law of the land"..... It would have been called the "law of God" as was mentioned in the Qur'an separately..


Peace..
edit on 30-3-2012 by My.mind.is.mine because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 12:13 AM
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Any theology based on the insane ramblings of primarily a single individual should be considered highly questionable and in this case, manipulative lies to justify evil.



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 12:21 AM
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Originally posted by My.mind.is.mine
Salafi's nitpick, and say no, obey the law of the land if the law is islamic law..


I'm starting to think that what these individuals really want to do, is simply twist or falsely interpret pretty much anything that they can get their hands on, in order to justify simply doing what they want.

So if they can find something in the Qu'ran (or the Hadith or wherever else) which they can use to justify killing people or causing mayhem, they'll do it. It's the same as when I wrote above, that if an individual wants to do the right thing, they're going to know what it is and do it, irrespective of what any book says.

The theology is not the issue at all. It is just used as an excuse. There is a paradox; you only become externally free of the law, if you remain willing to obey the law internally, whether it is there externally or not.
edit on 30-3-2012 by petrus4 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 12:30 AM
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Originally posted by petrus4

Originally posted by My.mind.is.mine
Salafi's nitpick, and say no, obey the law of the land if the law is islamic law..


I'm starting to think that what these individuals really want to do, is simply twist or falsely interpret pretty much anything that they can get their hands on, in order to justify simply doing what they want.

So if they can find something in the Qu'ran (or the Hadith or wherever else) which they can use to justify killing people or causing mayhem, they'll do it. It's the same as when I wrote above, that if an individual wants to do the right thing, they're going to know what it is and do it, irrespective of what any book says.

The theology is not the issue at all. It is just used as an excuse. There is a paradox; you only become externally free of the law, if you remain willing to obey the law internally, whether it is there externally or not.
edit on 30-3-2012 by petrus4 because: (no reason given)


They are the stooges doing the work of the saudi government... in a nutshell...

I believe the saudi government has always had a goal in mind to pimp the faith for... allllllll that money they get from pimping the faith....



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 12:37 AM
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Originally posted by My.mind.is.mine
They are the stooges doing the work of the saudi government... in a nutshell...

I believe the saudi government has always had a goal in mind to pimp the faith for... allllllll that money they get from pimping the faith....


It is interesting that you say this, because what little I've been able to learn about any definite basis for Al Qaeda (and truthfully, precious little exists) has almost exclusively pointed to the Saudi government. Although I'm still not sure how that explains the degree of fanaticism which seems to also exist in Pakistan.



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 12:43 AM
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reply to post by petrus4
 


I do not believe God wishes to be feared.

"Be not afraid" - The Angel Gabriel



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 01:25 AM
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your arguing a moot point because both verses are scripture! and u also are ignorant of the historical aspects of that particular faith and are expressing your disagreement with the commands of the second verse. but this is my opinion like your post is an opinion and scripture is unfortunately something people have come to think can be debated over and opined.

your title says librarian but u post a video with the title of exclamation;

"Providing clarification for Islamic theology"

no links but to other articles from ats and a video to corroborate your opinions; not very scholarly!

this is all i heard from u



an extremely clear and incontrovertible example of the type of Islamic behaviour, which we in Western society find so objectionable





I know that there are individual Muslims who use this forum





I'm discovering





abrogation. It is primarily this concept, I believe, that has allowed the integrity of Islamic theology to become compromised


then u ramble here




God-fearing, truly spiritually active Muslims on the one hand, and radical, Godless, murdering extremists


u can use the internet so im sure u know how your ignorance is your greatest virtue right at this point.




Islam's theological message did not apparently remain consistent





So some Muslims can claim that Islam is not coercive, and (as nusnus quoted to me) quote the following


i could only believe you are dysfunctional regarding religious/spiritual matters/nuances in this quote. i wonder if a believer who was a jew a morman a baptist or catholic(insert any other faith that has scripture) would not take offense to what you are suggesting and proceeding to do.

then u try and quote scripture without a link to the original source!im not mistaken you are taking liberties with beliefs by doing this!)




, primarily for the purposes of social control


at least your a snake in the open; thats a liberty i took on word play. but if i was a believer in the Koran or their prophets teachings(which is irrelevant to scum, more word play)your conclusionary reason for interpretation and disrespect to peoples beliefs is for social control from a perspective i will expound uppon later.

to explain your perspective i have to get abstract even more because of your neurosis so deal with it if i lost u already dude.




The other religions I have looked at are Christianity, Judaism, (to a much lesser extent) Hinduism, New Ageism as derived from certain channelled sources, and neo-Paganism



Islam is also not the only religious system which I have attempted to investigate



The single most important lesson that I have learned from all of these, is that there truthfully is no scripture in existence which should be considered infallible



"I have come to consider Abrahamic monotheism in general ..."repressive to the point of dehumanisation..."



the only legitimate ethical law in existence the sovereignty movement



In the end, all roads lead to Rome


then u post a video about those "theoritical" clauses in natural law that were just used to make the deceleration of independence null and void in argument. but before u do you go deep into your dysfunction and perspective about how u think islam is popular for the purpose of control because of its observances in law. i take it with all your channeled teachings you forgot to pass the mirror to go to the bathroom, but u definitely did try and flush the toilet yet what what u say is just as ugly as what u tried to thought to consume and the digest and if i just read your post id know this would be that last time id showed interest in your mind let alone what you consume and then purport to create!

but about the subject of your neurosis; all scriptures "can be" and mostly are more complimentary than singular. in the case of your misquotations, the second verse implies, without the notation of fabricated "natural law", if after 3 months within a time period a person/s maintains his laws against the Koran or the various scriptures therein this person/s is to be slain. the last part is up to interpretation, because with minds like yours: i can see you not knowing a verse to say, or a remorse to express, or a reparation as a parting gift for your freedom if u were ever caught trying to enforce upon a person who believes in this scripture(of which you did not cite but attempt to quote) your own sovereignty message.

i feel u didnt deserve the reply i gave you; and anyone who is possibly wanting to reply to your hate speech probably wont because u wrote too much were not scholarly and are openly bigoted. but then again they have their abrogation right!
edit on 30-3-2012 by Ausar because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 01:48 AM
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Originally posted by Ausar
i take it with all your channeled teachings you forgot to pass the mirror to go to the bathroom, but u definitely did try and flush the toilet yet what what u say is just as ugly as what u tried to thought to consume and the digest and if i just read your post id know this would be that last time id showed interest in your mind let alone what you consume and then purport to create!


a] It's spelled "y-o-u."

b] I'm not sure what me going to the toilet has to do with this topic.


i can see you not knowing a verse to say, or a remorse to express, or a reparation as a parting gift for your freedom if u were ever caught trying to enforce upon a person who believes in this scripture(of which you did not cite but attempt to quote) your own sovereignty message.


I am not interested in enforcing anything. I gave an opinion. I'm not going to kill anyone if they disagree with it, or advocate doing so.


i feel u didnt deserve the reply i gave you; and anyone who is possibly wanting to reply to your hate speech


I do not recognise the concept of "hate speech," (or "hate crimes,") as being rationally legitimate, personally. Said concept is an appeal to allow some groups to have additional privelege (become "more equal," essentially, to quote the old Soviet term) in the eyes of the law.



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 02:02 AM
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Originally posted by ILikeStars
reply to post by petrus4
 


I do not believe God wishes to be feared.

"Be not afraid" - The Angel Gabriel
Matthew 10:28 "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 02:36 AM
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reply to post by Hydroman
 


Not sure if you really want to start quoting verses with me, but thanks for sharing that just the same.


I think that whole Bible book thingy makes more sense after we apply all the verses we can to all the verses of that Bible book thingy.


I also do not believe it is a random occurance that 9-11 of the Koran essentially says the exact opposite of 11-9 in the Bible/Torah.

____________________________________________

Can a "u" make the same sound as "oo"?
Can a "c" make the same sound as a "k"?
Do we hear an audible sound from the "a" in the word "fear"?

LOOK I FEAR could be spelled LUC I FER

Perhaps fear causes us to LOSE the CIPHER?

A cipher is a key to unlocking an encrypted message ... and hidden things.

seek what has been written.
seek writ.
seek writ.
secret.
secret.


Love your avatar btw.
edit on 30-3-2012 by ILikeStars because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 02:44 AM
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Originally posted by ILikeStars
Can a "u" make the same sound as "oo"?
Can a "c" make the same sound as a "k"?
Do we hear an audible sound from the "a" in the word "fear"?

LOOK I FEAR could be spelled LUC I FER

Perhaps fear causes us to LOSE the CIPHER?

A cipher is a key to unlocking an encrypted message ... and hidden things.

seek what has been written.
seek writ.
seek writ.
secret.
secret.
You do realize that the bible was translated from Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic into english, right? So, what you just did ONLY works in english, not in any other language.


Originally posted by ILikeStars
Love your avatar btw.
Thank you. I was a fan of the Blackest Night series, but I haven't kept up with it too much after that...



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 03:37 AM
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Originally posted by Hydroman
You do realize that the bible was translated from Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic into english, right?


You do realize that you were taught that they are totally different languages, right? I'm not sure the disconnect is that great a distance. But, I could be wrong.



So, what you just did ONLY works in english, not in any other language.


As soon as we both know everything there is to know about the English language we can move onto discussing other languages, well, unless ATS didn't allow it seeing how we can only use English on this site, as is stated in the terms and conditions.

English is the only language here, buddy.

English also makes some sense reading it right to left, too, by the way...

Phonetically "eden" sounds an awful lot like "edun".
They were nude in the Garden of Edun.

Man was tasked with having to give everything in the garden a name

boots have been known to have stood.
people feed on beef.
a trophy is nothing more than proof of an effort.

I have many more examples, but you get the drift.



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 03:58 AM
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Originally posted by ILikeStars
You do realize that you were taught that they are totally different languages, right? I'm not sure the disconnect is that great a distance. But, I could be wrong.
Yes, I was taught that, and they were right. Let's take Spanish for example. Spanish is closer to english than Hebrew, Greek, or Aramaic because english and spanish are Latin languages. The words you used in your previous quote, such as "Lucifer" and how it sounds like "Look I fear" doesn't even work in spanish, a closely related language to english. So, unrelated language such as Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic definitely will not work.


Originally posted by ILikeStars
As soon as we both know everything there is to know about the English language we can move onto discussing other languages, well, unless ATS didn't allow it seeing how we can only use English on this site, as is stated in the terms and conditions.
Knowing everything about the English language isn't necessary to see that your sayings won't work in any other language...


Originally posted by ILikeStars
Phonetically "eden" sounds an awful lot like "edun".
They were nude in the Garden of Edun.
They were also "naked", and "unclothed".


Originally posted by ILikeStars
boots have been known to have stood.
So do statues. So do pillars. So do houses. I could go on and on.


Originally posted by ILikeStars
people feed on beef.
And chicken, and seafood, and vegetables, and fruits...etc.


Originally posted by ILikeStars
a trophy is nothing more than proof of an effort.
So is a medallion, or an award, etc.



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 04:23 AM
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My only interjection here, is to observe that Hydroman apparently has at least a (somewhat) fear-based belief system. I used to have one of those myself; and I can barely begin to describe the degree to which my life has improved, since I changed that.

Hydroman may, on reading that, give me what seems to be a standard Christian response; namely, that Hell doesn't cease being a reality, just because I choose to cease believing in it.

I don't view Hell as an illusion. Hell exists. It's quite real. I just view fear as illusory. I made the decision that I no longer wanted to be confined within a belief system, that was primarily focused on fear; whether fear of Hell, or fear of the end of the world. I further made it known to God that if hypothetically, I was unavoidably going to be sent to Hell, for refusing to participate within a given belief system, then I would accept that, and I would not resent him for it, because apart from anything else I've already been given physical existence, which has been a wonderful thing for me.

I think in that sense, Christianity can provide a person with a fantastic developmental challenge; to honestly accept the potential reality of a God who would condemn a person to eternity in Hell, and then find it within yourself to refrain from resentment or any other negative emotion towards said God. Getting to the point of both accepting the very real possibility that you genuinely are going to Hell, and then releasing any negative emotion you might feel in response to that, is an extremely liberating and fortifying experience.

So I'm actually quite grateful to Christians now, on balance.



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 05:01 AM
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reply to post by petrus4
 


Actually, I'm an atheist.



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 05:12 AM
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reply to post by Ausar
 



if after 3 months within a time period a person/s maintains his laws against the Koran or the various scriptures therein this person/s is to be slain.


Well woopteedoo, someone call god, we found the one person on Earth who's interpretations of "holy" books we can take for fact.

Ow wait, that's impossible!


or a reparation as a parting gift for your freedom if u were ever caught trying to enforce upon a person who believes in this scripture(of which you did not cite but attempt to quote) your own sovereignty message.


Yeah yeah, whatever, you try growing up in an all-Muslim family in a Western country then come back at me and claim how good it is when every single one of your kids can't wait to shed the mantle of Islamic culture. They can't question their faith, unless they do it lowly like cattle and take any answer for granted. They can't question their book, out of fear of being shunned by their ENTIRE families.

Personally, I believe that anyone who takes these things THIS seriously as you two fellows do, there must be something wrong. I also believe that if you haven't lived through these things or do not have the proper insight, there must be something wrong with you to want to defend a backward and dated culture.



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 05:17 AM
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Originally posted by Hydroman
reply to post by petrus4
 


Actually, I'm an atheist.


Oops.



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 09:31 AM
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reply to post by InfoKartel
 


u need peace greater than myself or anyone else engaging this discussion.




They can't question their faith, unless they do it lowly like cattle and take any answer for granted. They can't question their book, out of fear of being shunned by their ENTIRE families... I believe that anyone who takes these things THIS seriously as you two fellows do, there must be something wrong...





if you haven't lived through these things or do not have the proper insight, there must be something wrong with you



your problem with American Islam seems to stem from your lack of maturity in perceiving that when a scripture is interpreted as law it does not matter that if even the vile follow, if you keep; it is to keep yourself. if you have a problem with the environment of those you keep with, it has little to do with how u can misinterpret scripture or have angst at the true natural law issues surrounding your individuality; grow up: it almost sounds like u need greater hardship to push u in the right direction, because coddling a boy wont make a man a man makes a man and the same can be said for any other noun u can insert for man.



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 09:50 AM
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reply to post by Ausar
 



u need peace greater than myself or anyone else engaging this discussion.


What people like you don't understand is that when you are free, truly free, you see petty religious arguments for what they are; egoistic selfsatisfying.


American Islam




Oxymoron right there. Islam is vehemently anti-freedom, America is quite the opposite.


seems to stem from your lack of maturity in perceiving that when a scripture is interpreted as law it does not matter that if even the vile follow, if you keep; it is to keep yourself.


Lack of maturity? Let me tell you a little something and we'll see who is mature enough to view things as they are: Islam, through its conception until this date, has been spread by violence and oppression. See, you live in a free country and you can claim "Islam this, Islam that", but you have never known Islamic culture. You simply talk in vague and abstract sentences because you really don't know what you're saying or to whom.


it has little to do with how u can misinterpret scripture or have angst at the true natural law issues surrounding your individuality


Actually, any and every interpretation is possibly correct and possibly false. My individuality? Please go ask the millions of Muslim youth how they feel about their individuality and see how much the culture is wearing them down.


grow up: it almost sounds like u need greater hardship to push u in the right direction, because coddling a boy wont make a man a man makes a man and the same can be said for any other noun u can insert for man


I can tell I'm more a man than you can hope to be :-) Partially because I did not lose myself in riddles like you did. Partially because I threw away these riddles written by people I don't know, telling me to judge others or myself. Plus, I tend to speak for those who can't speak for themselves, and a lot of those people seem to have issues with Islam.

PS. You can't tell this Iranian squat about Islam or religion, I've lived through it and I've seen it. You are dead wrong and ignorant about many issues surrounding Islam. Most likely because you've never experienced the culture in first person.

PPS. It takes a man and a woman to make a man.



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