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Why there's good reason to believe the "Abomination that Causes Desolations" will happen this spr

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posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 09:02 AM
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reply to post by grandestconspiracyofall
 


In that post of mine you quoted, I said that I had translated Revelation from the original Greek.
So, when you suggest that I further consider the Greek word for "generation"...trust me, I have. In every other place where Jesus uses the word, he uses it in reference to the generation of Jews he came among. I certainly don't think he means a literal 30-year generation, but he does mean the generation he had been speaking of since he began his ministry - the wicked and adulterous generation that crucified him and came to an end when Jerusalem was destroyed "in fulfillment of all that has been written" (Luke 21:22).
edit on 30-3-2012 by CLPrime because: (no reason given)




posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 09:13 AM
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Originally posted by hab22

Well, time will soon tell if my theory is correct about the abomination being set up this spring. When I refer to the abomination being set up on a wing of the temple, I do not mean so in the metaphorical sense, but in the literal sense, that it will be set up "in the extreme part" (as you well described it) of the temple, which is where I believe the Dome of the Rock is located. Revelation speaks of the "Court of the Gentiles" being given over to the forces of antichrist for 42 months.


Revelation never once mentions an antichrist.



II Thes. speaks of the antichrist setting himself up "in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." This concurs with Isaiah 14, where the antichrist is called "king of Babylon" and "the Assyrian" who exalts himself above the throne of God.


2 Thess. never mentions an antichrist either. You guys take a couple statements about "antichrists" in John's letters and apply it to everything and everyone you can, but you have absolutely no Scriptural support for this.
And now you're doing it with the "king of Babylon" and "the Assyrian." What makes you think that God wasn't actually speaking of the king of Babylon and about an actual Assyrian? Why does everything have to apply to some mythical future Antichrist?

Thessalonians speaks of the man of lawlessness. This was the Roman Emperor - not a single man, but many men who set themselves up in God's temple and declared themselves gods.



The antichrist didn't appear in 70 AD to exalt himself in the temple, nor did the Messiah reappear to put down the rule of Satan over the world.


No Scripture ever demands for some singular Antichrist to appear with the abomination of desolation. The spirit of antichrist was everywhere, even well before AD 70. It culminated once in Nero, just before the destruction of Jerusalem, and again in Domitian not long after.

Luke, however, affirms that the abomination of desolation was "set up" in AD 70, when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies and the Christians of the city fled, just as Jesus had told them to do. Why do we want this to happen a second time?
edit on 30-3-2012 by CLPrime because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 09:15 AM
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reply to post by CLPrime
 


When Jesus said "this generation", he meant the same generation that would witness the end times events he was discussing.

In other words, all of these events would occur within the span of one generation.

Paul verified this.



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 09:16 AM
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reply to post by Alpha Arietis
 


Where did Paul verify this?



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 09:16 AM
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Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by grandestconspiracyofall
 


In that post of mine you quoted, I said that I had translated Revelation from the original Greek.
So, when you suggest that I further consider the Greek word for "generation"...trust me, I have. In every other place where Jesus uses the word, he uses it in reference to the generation of Jews he came among. I certainly don't think he means a literal 30-year generation, but he does mean the generation he had been speaking of since he began his ministry - the wicked and adulterous generation that crucified him and came to an end when Jerusalem was destroyed "in fulfillment of all that has been written" (Luke 21:22).
edit on 30-3-2012 by CLPrime because: (no reason given)

I have certainly enjoyed the comments here. CLPrime, I agree with a lot of what you have said, and some things that hab22 has said. I do believe that all the prohecy of the timeline of Daniel 9 (the 70 weeks prophecy) has indeed been fulfilled culminated by the destruction of the temple and overthrow of the city in AD 70. This was the purpose as identified in Daniel, to put an end to sin and sacrifices (also echoing Joel, as Peter enunciated in Acts 2).

And for a "few" of you to read, please..... the word anti-christ, or the plural, is only written in 2 books of the Bible: 1 and 2 John. Thats right, the word is NOT used in the entire book of the Revelation, nor in Daniel or Matthew or Luke, etc. Why is that important? Because you must be very careful to NOT assign these names and labels to places/things/objects/people that are NOT the antichrist. There will be NO human one world leader. No Antichrist like Hagee and all these guys talk about. John says 2 things about antichrist: 1) the SPIRIT of antichrist, which is 2) those who deny that Jesus is Messiah and Saviour and the Son of God.

I do think the final battle - as it were - is coming very soon. The spirit of anti-christ is even now growing large in the world - and in my opinion (and I am not trying to offend but it is what it is) this is embodied mostly in the rise of radical Islam, which accepts Jesus as a person, and perhaps a prophet at most, but not the Holy Son of God/Messiah. And in John 14:6, Jesus says "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no man comes to the Father except through Me". So anyone saying any other 'person' is the way is a liar and is operating in the spirit of anti-christ.

Again, great discussion. Thanks
edit on 30/3/12 by TrailGator because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 09:49 AM
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Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by Alpha Arietis
 


Where did Paul verify this?


2 Thessalonians chapter 2.

Also, Peter verified it in 2 Peter 3:4, when he states that in the "last days", "...they will say, ' where is this coming he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the creation'..."

Key statement being: "Ever since our fathers died..."



edit on 30-3-2012 by Alpha Arietis because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 10:00 AM
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Originally posted by Alpha Arietis

2 Thessalonians chapter 2.


Okay...where in 2 Thessalonians 2 does Paul verify that Jesus was saying it would be some future generation that all these things would happen to?
2 Thess. 2 is speaking of the man of lawlessness, which, as I already said above, was the Roman Emperor - from Nero to Maximinus (AD 64-313). He was destroyed by the "brightness" of Christ's coming (2 Thess. 2:8) when Rome was handed over to the Kingdom of Heaven (Revelation 11:15) under Emperor Constantine.



Also, Peter verified it in 2 Peter 3:4, when he states that in the "last days", "...they will say, ' where is this coming he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the creation'..."


In the last days? The writer of Hebrews said, "in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe" (Hebrews 1:2). When Christ came the first time, it was already the "last days." The destruction of Jerusalem was also in the last days - of which Luke wrote, "For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written" (Luke 21:22; paralleling Hosea 9:7).



Key statement being: "Ever since our fathers died..."


I said this above:

"In every other place where Jesus uses the word, he uses it in reference to the generation of Jews he came among. I certainly don't think he means a literal 30-year generation, but he does mean the generation he had been speaking of since he began his ministry - the wicked and adulterous generation that crucified him and came to an end when Jerusalem was destroyed"

Jesus didn't use the word to mean a single, literal generation, but he did use it to signify the lineage of hypocritical Jews contemporary with his first coming. The end of this hypocrisy came when Jerusalem was destroyed, thereby ending "this (wicked and adulterous) generation."
edit on 30-3-2012 by CLPrime because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 10:21 AM
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reply to post by DarthMuerte
 


The corner stone is in place, the temple doesn't need to be finished. The corner stone represents the temple.
2nd.



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 10:23 AM
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reply to post by CLPrime
 


It's funny to me that in this very chapter, Paul is warning us to not believe those who are saying "The day of the Lord has already come", because that is exactly your message here.

"That day will not come until the rebellion occurs, and the man of lawlessness is revealed." (NIV)

If you are saying that the "rebellion" referred to here is Israel's rebellion against Rome, then I have to disagree with you. It is a reference to a rebellion against God that has yet to reach fruition.

You claim that the "man (singular) of lawlessness" is actually a reference to a multi-century succession of Roman emperors. I have to disagree. None of those men, neither alone nor together, met the criteria for the individual spoken of by Paul and others.

That individual's defining properties are summed up in verse 9: "The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders..."

Neither were the emperors you are talking about "destroyed by the splendor of [Christ's] coming".



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 10:23 AM
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reply to post by CLPrime
 


Wow .. i dont think you have read the Bible sir or your interpretation is very off base.

It's not very hard to read if you open it , at least not for me.

Pretty much everything you have said is false.

" There is no antichrist mentioned in this book" "Anti Christ mentioned .." "Okay , well you guys take the word Anti Christ and apply it to everything"

What kind of argument is that?


The Bible doesn't tell us how long a generation is. It's probably not 30 years as the current calculation is coming out to be somewhere around 50 years.
edit on 30-3-2012 by milkyway12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 10:36 AM
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Originally posted by Alpha Arietis
reply to post by CLPrime
 


It's funny to me that in this very chapter, Paul is warning us to not believe those who are saying "The day of the Lord has already come", because that is exactly your message here.


Yet, at some point, the Lord's coming has to be past tense, does it not? We can't eternally say that his coming has not yet happened.



"That day will not come until the rebellion occurs, and the man of lawlessness is revealed." (NIV)

If you are saying that the "rebellion" referred to here is Israel's rebellion against Rome, then I have to disagree with you. It is a reference to a rebellion against God that has yet to reach fruition.


The rebellion mentioned here is not Israel's rebellion against Rome. The actual Greek word is apostasia, which means a standing away (or falling away; apostasy). This refers to a falling away from God - the same thing Jesus foretold in Matthew 24:10-12, saying, "At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold."
This all happened well within the 40 years after Jesus gave the Olivet Discourse.



You claim that the "man (singular) of lawlessness" is actually a reference to a multi-century succession of Roman emperors. I have to disagree. None of those men, neither alone nor together, met the criteria for the individual spoken of by Paul and others.


It's not necessarily speaking about a bunch of emperors - rather, it is speaking of THE Emperor. That is, the imperial seat, given authority to stand against God and his people (authority the Roman emperors took advantage of a dozen times between AD 64 and 313).



That individual's defining properties are summed up in verse 9: "The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders..."

Neither were the emperors you are talking about "destroyed by the splendor of [Christ's] coming".


That's what happens when you take prophecy too literally. This is Jewish-style apocalyptic language, you can't take it too literally. The Roman Emperor most certainly showed all kinds of counterfeit authority, not the least of which was the power to persecute and put to death God's people.
And, yes, the authority of the Roman imperial seat was definitely destroyed by the splendor of Christ's coming in victory ca. AD 313.



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 10:39 AM
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reply to post by milkyway12
 


This from "Sniper Jesus"?



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 10:42 AM
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reply to post by CLPrime
 


The Bible is meant to be taken literally. It does have metaphoric meanings , but your looking past the Bible into your own meanings. Though everyone does this , you are totally ignoring scripture by applying the word "Metaphoric".

I don't know about you , but i wouldn't take God very figuratively.

"Yes" the Sniper Jesus. I love my God and Jesus and i think Jesus can take a Joke. I find it funny personally. If you dont like it , you dont have to look at it.

If you dont think God has a sense of humor , i think you're wrong.
edit on 30-3-2012 by milkyway12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 10:49 AM
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reply to post by milkyway12
 


Joking about the man who died to save you may not be in the best show of faith. But anyway...

You don't seem to take the words "Near," "Soon," and "Quickly" very literally, considering how many times they're used to describe these prophetic events.



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 10:51 AM
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reply to post by CLPrime
 


CLP,
Can you tell me a bit about what the near future holds according to your interpretation on this subject? I don't really know how that question comes across in writing but I want to assure you that I have read this whole thread and I genuinely want to learn your perspective of future biblical prophesy. I have heard both sides of the debate for many years and it has always seemed as if your side has focused on the past while the other has focused on the future. Thank you in advance.

I am quite pleased that this debate has gone so long without descending into argument



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 10:52 AM
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reply to post by CLPrime
 


I am still not sure why you think Jesus has already returned? One of the major prophecies is the Kingdom of Israel. This has not occurred until 1967 (Their Return - Captured Jerusalem).

In AD70 , they were scattered Among the nations , and only today have they come back to their home ... well in the 20th century.



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 10:58 AM
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reply to post by micmerci
 


Certainly.
The only thing left to occur is this:

Revelation 20:7-15

And, whenever the thousand years have been completed, the adversary will be loosed from his prison, and he will go out to deceive the nations – the ones at the four corners of the earth: Gog and Magog, to assemble them to the battle –, whose number is as the sand of the sea. And they went up over the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the holy ones, even the beloved city. And there came down fire from the air, and devoured them. And the accuser – the one deceiving them – was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where are even the beast and the false prophet, and will be tortured day and night, to the ages of the ages.
And I saw a great white throne, and the one sitting on it, from whose face fled the earth and the air, and a place was not found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. And a scroll was opened, and another scroll was opened, which is the one of life, and the dead were judged by the things written in the scrolls – according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the grave gave up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one, according to their works. And death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death – the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the scroll of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


What we look for now is a time of great deception. This, as you can see, is all around us, embodied in everything from the idolatry of science to these false doctrines of Dispensationalism and Futurism (perversion of God's Word at its best). When this reaches a climax, God, in some way he hasn't revealed (in the passage above, it is described as fire from heaven, though this is most definitely as symbolic as the rest of the book of Revelation), will destroy all enemies of his people, and all will be judged.



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 11:05 AM
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reply to post by milkyway12
 


The Kingdom hasn't been established?

Revelation 1:5-6 - "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father — to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen."

Revelation 5:9-10 - "'You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.'”

1 Peter 2:9 - "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."

Hebrews 12:18-24,28 - "You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, because they could not bear what was commanded: 'If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned to death.' The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, 'I am trembling with fear.' But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. ... Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe."
edit on 30-3-2012 by CLPrime because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 11:06 AM
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reply to post by CLPrime
 


I don't doubt the sincerity of your beliefs.

But to relegate all end time prophecies to the past tense is akin to denying their validity.

God said, "Behold I have revealed all things."

So I ask you, where are the prophecies concerning modern times? Where are the prophecies concerning modern Israel and contemporary events? Are you saying that we are marching blindly into an unrevealed future? That none of these modern events have been foretold in scripture?

edit to say: I see you have partially answered my questions in the posts preceding this one.
edit on 30-3-2012 by Alpha Arietis because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 11:10 AM
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Originally posted by hab22

Originally posted by DarthMuerte
I must disagree with you. The temple hasn't even been built yet. We cannot have the Abomination without a temple in which it can take place. I do agree with the war starting soon though. It seems as though the Gog-Magog way of Ezekiel 38 could start any day.


Ahah, you are of the majority opinion, as promalgated by Hagee, Lindsey, Rosenberg, Van Impe and others. I can take your argument apart one piece at a time.

No temple will be rebuilt. First of all, the Arabs will not allow it. Secondly, Jesus fulfilled the first 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week.

As for the Ezekiel 38 Gog and Magog invasion....that doesn't happen till after the 1000 year millennium. Read Revelation 20. When Satan is loosed after being bound for 1000 years, then will happen Ezek. 38. Not now. Read Ezek 38 carefully. It speaks of Israel being at peace will all her neighbors and having no walls or borders. Certainly not the case now.

We are on the verge of the abomination as described by Jesus in Luke 21. Armies of mobs surrounding Jersusalem leading to the city being downtrodden as also described in Daniel 8





Something comes to mind, and yea it would be the Temple not being built.

"No temple will be rebuilt. First of all, the Arabs will not allow it. Secondly, Jesus fulfilled the first 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week."


But consider this..... how would the Israelis be free to build? If a war with Iran locked down the country and Muslums were expelled en mass. the Dome of the Rock might be destroyed and the rebuilding started. Otherwise the Arabs are an impediment to the plan. I think that is how it will arrive at a time ripe for the Temple being built, and everything is in place so that it could be quickly built, very quickly built, and all the items of sacrifice are in the Jews possession as we speak.

edit on 30-3-2012 by Plotus because: (no reason given)



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