The Chemtrail Hoax

To conclude this portion of the discussion, I would like to answer a question that, surprisingly, was not asked. Namely, do I believe in the effectiveness of what I am engaged in? Do I think this project, which has been ongoing for over forty years, will have any effect in altering the Earth's climactic system so as to delay or halt the upcoming little ice age? I do not.

Then perhaps the real goal of the project is not the same as you believe it is.

Originally posted by Lamagraa
theres a chemtrail hoax????? I thought it was a chemtrail fact you should see Bakersfield

The fact is there are persistant trails in the sky

The people who say that these are chemtrails believe them to be put there by a government conspiracy.

The sceptics who say this conspiracy is a hoax believe them to be a normal product of flying at altitude.

flurfl, that is a pretty good summary, except that you left out a few key details


1) The chemtrail believers have never come up with a single piece of evidence to back up thier claims


2) The skeptics can point to over 50 years of scientific research and data that explains the formation of the trails as a normal byproduct of combustions at high altitudes.

Now,

It's been a dozen times that I have SEEN massive TRAILS in one day and SOLAR FLARES like activity the very same night.

It's only a link between several interests.

Tonight seems to be high in colors

they're killing us all ahhh ahhh ahhh stop breathing.......opps cant lol

why worry about it even if its going on cant stop breathing lol

[edit on 3-3-2005 by Lamagraa]

Doesn't apply to the conspiracy, just have a question in general.

I have one question about contrails. How come vortex generators don't affect the outcome of what we typically see as a straight line exhaust? Even if the planes don't have vortex generators the plane will create vortices.

www.aerospaceweb.org...

Wing tip vortices seem to have no influence on contrails either...
www.aerospaceweb.org...

They do, it's just that it can be hard to tell from down here.

here's a good example

All airplanes generate wingtip vortices. Big, heavy airliners are notorious for that.

here is a technical report on the effects of the wake vortex on contrail formation

even more technical modeling of contrail formation

That is an amazing read. I've only made it through the intro and looked into some other pictures/aspects of the article, but this is amazing. This finaly explains and tops the cake to why you see the 'dot' or 'turning on and off' of engines in contrail formations. I finaly can be rest assured I'm not being sprayed by chemicals.

I really dont understand why Off_The_Street is even on this forum, or how he has so much time to dispute so many posts...

Chemtrails. Why would anyone that has any common sense look at the modern sky and think that it is anywhere near normal. I have been an avid fan of aircraft since I was a wee lad. I have always had an eye for the sky. At one time I worked as a car salesman, I cant remember exactly what year it was, around 1998 or 99 we had the whole used car lot covered with spiderwebs. It was unreal, over 400 hundred cars covered in this spiderweb material. I blew it off as just some strange thing with the local envioroment that must have produced all this overnight. Somkind of spider population explosion.

Then a few days later I was finishing up the day and looked to the sky like I aways do for aircraft. I was too busy all day and this was moment to take a deep breath and try and spot some airplanes.

I will never forget that moment, nor have I ever had a stronger mental image of anything as I had the sky on that day. It was like somethingout of a movie it was so forein/alien to my self trained sky seeking mind. I sttod there must of been 10 minutes thinking what the f***! I had chills going up my spine.

There were these weird contrails, big and fat and way to dense. Then right away I realized why it was so different.

There were contrails on the horizon. This was of course the very first time I had seen contrails on the horizon.

Do you know why?

Contrails form at 30,000 to 40,000 feet. Our ability to see through ground haze is constantly measured and updated for pilots. That number is usually around twenty miles. On very clear days that number is around 50 miles. Only on the most spectacularly clear days can visibility approach one hundred miles. If an aircraft flies at 30,000, the horizon as it appears to the people on the aircraft (if they could see it) is 250 miles away.

Although people on aircraft have much less ground haze around them, their view of the horizon is also clouded by haze because they must look through the ground haze at the horizon.

If the people on the aircraft have their horizon at 250 miles then the people on the ground who see the aircraft near the horizon are seeing an object that is 250 miles away.

You cannot see that far through the haze. Remember when to see a contrail you always had to crane your neck because to see them you had to look almost straight up? This is because of the limited distance you can see, when looking through the sky haze at an angle to the horizon.

That is why for the first time in my lifetime of studying the great blue, I had winessed contrails on the horizon.

It wasnt until some years later that I looked this up on the internet and had a label of chemtrails to attach to what I had seen.

I wont speculate on why they are there, or who is doing it because that is just to hard to fully comrehend with the limited facts we have.

I just know they are there and it is not with our permission or public knowledge. I do know that I now get sinutitus at times that I never did before , I now have it most of the winter, when before I only got it in April and September. So it is most definatly not good or me.

Dont close your mind. Just look up and remember how the sky used to be...

If the people on the aircraft have their horizon at 250 miles then the people on the ground who see the aircraft near the horizon are seeing an object that is 250 miles away.

Uhm... think about that very carefully and try again.


You're right CONtrails are quite unnatural and were nonexistant 100 years ago. They are the result of avionic technology and have become a common day occurance.

100 years ago the type of cirrus clouds that are produced by contrails we see today did not exist.

I have also been in the sales industry. One thing I realized while being a salesman is those around me often believed what they were told without question. Perhaps you should embrace logic and put this question upon yourself? Are you believing what you have been told, or are you rationally and logically seeking an explanation for the unnatural acts you have seen?

Code 3 I had quite a bit of trouble wading through the bizarre logic of your long post. In the end I think I got there though. Are you saying the the difference between a contrail and a "chemtrail" is that "chemtrails" appear on the horizon and contrails appear overhead? Eh???? That is one of the silliest things I've heard in a long time.

The further a plane is away from you the closer it will be to the horizon, and therefore the closer the contrail will be to the horizon. If the plane flies directly overhead then the contrail will be overhead.

Uhm... think about that very carefully and try again.

Uhm...duh...

The biggest difference between Contrails and aerosol spraying there Einsien is that Contrails evaporate, after a period of time.

The most comprehensive research contained the following information:

In this study, the longest-persisting contrail observed from a known identified aircraft was approximately 25 minutes. This occurred on one occasion, out of 53 documented observations. The next longest in persistence were trails lasting approximately 2 minutes. This occurred on about 5 occasions. Most contrails observed were in the 5-20 second range. Unidentified flights were observed to produce trails with persistence from 20 seconds to several hours.

Aerosol spraying AKA chemtrails last all day. They start out looking quite a bit like contrails but they then spread out until they make an unatuarly smooth overcast.

FatherLukeDuke...

The reason for talking about seeing this anomaly on the horizon is so simple I thought maybe just maybe someone like yourself could figure it out without being led by the nose every step of the way.

If an object is at 30,000 feet and is on the horizon, it makes that object about 250 miles away. The higher the altitude, if it is on the horizon the further it has to be away. Get it? Here is a link of the math involved.
www.its.bldrdoc.gov...

Can't people just use their eyes and see that something very significant is happening right over their heads? Why dont people think for themselves anymore, is it from a lifetime of having every detail layed out in front of them via television?

I feel like I am in a night of the living dead movie...

Originally posted by Code 3
The biggest difference between Contrails and aerosol spraying there Einsien is that Contrails evaporate, after a period of time.

Do you agree that contrails are made up of ice crystals? Please answer yes or no.

Do you agree that cirrus clouds can persist for any length of time from a few minutes to several days? Please answer yes or no.

Do you agree that cirrus clouds in the upper atmosphere are composed of ice crystals? Please answer yes or no.

Please explain why you expect the ice crystals that form from the exhaust of a combustion engine would behave differently than the ice crystals that form through other meteorological processes.

In other words, Einstein, why do you believe that is it that it is ok for cirrus clouds to persist, but not for contrails.

Originally posted by HowardRoark

Originally posted by Code 3
The biggest difference between Contrails and aerosol spraying there Einsien is that Contrails evaporate, after a period of time.

Do you agree that contrails are made up of ice crystals? Please answer yes or no.

Do you agree that cirrus clouds can persist for any length of time from a few minutes to several days? Please answer yes or no.

Do you agree that cirrus clouds in the upper atmosphere are composed of ice crystals? Please answer yes or no.

Please explain why you expect the ice crystals that form from the exhaust of a combustion engine would behave differently than the ice crystals that form through other meteorological processes.

In other words, Einstein, why do you believe that is it that it is ok for cirrus clouds to persist, but not for contrails.

What's this?
Crown Court Prosecution?
Just say 'No'
(Legal advice:Your comment might be held up in court as proof in some near future time - 'No Comment' might be a better tactic)

[edit on 11-3-2005 by dh]

In other words, Einstein, why do you believe that is it that it is ok for cirrus clouds to persist, but not for contrails.

Yes to all of the above, you seem to have quite a problem with perception dont you Howard.

Also, Howard you dont know what you are talking about!

The ices crystals from hot jet exhaust or like in world war 2, when B-17's Pratt and Whitney recipical engines produced contrails at altitude. P-47 thunderbolts did it at altitude as did the Russian Yak. Or the Rolls Royce merlin in the P-51. On and on, the point is just like your breath in cold weather, the crystals are very small compared to natural cloud formation.

This is why clouds produce rain, snow, ice and sleet. They are a different animal Howard, just like you. I know aircraft and why they do the things they do. Dont compare weather systems to contrails you end up showing how little you know.

You ever see a contrail rain!?!

Lol this is why I love ATS.. it's better than Springer!

Originally posted by Code 3
Most contrails observed were in the 5-20 second range. Unidentified flights were observed to produce trails with persistence from 20 seconds to several hours.

Aerosol spraying AKA chemtrails last all day. They start out looking quite a bit like contrails but they then spread out until they make an unatuarly smooth overcast.

Duh indeed. This is pure circular logic. Your reasoning is that if a contrail lasts for several hours then it must be a "chemtrail" and therefore because some contrails last for several hours they are "chemtrails".

If an object is at 30,000 feet and is on the horizon, it makes that object about 250 miles away. The higher the altitude, if it is on the horizon the further it has to be away. Get it? Here is a link of the math involved.
www.its.bldrdoc.gov...

So what? This is irrelevant.

The ices crystals from hot jet exhaust or like in world war 2, when B-17's Pratt and Whitney recipical engines produced contrails at altitude. P-47 thunderbolts did it at altitude as did the Russian Yak. Or the Rolls Royce merlin in the P-51. On and on, the point is just like your breath in cold weather, the crystals are very small compared to natural cloud formation.

I don't what those WWII planes have got to do with anything. I think you should learn a bit of science before embarrassing yourself further. Why is a contrail formed by a plane anything like your breath? Do you breath at 30,000ft and -40c?. The breath clouds you produce at ground level aren't even ice crystals, it is just water vapour which disperses quickly. Though you can apparently go to places in Siberia where the temperature drops below -40c and ice crystals will form, actually dropping to floor in front of you. I don't fancy that much myself.

You ever see a contrail rain!?!

If you had read all the thread you would see plenty of evidence presented that contrails can linger for very long periods and eventually form clouds. This is from the UK Met Office, one of the most respected weather forecasting organisations in the world:

Condensation trails (contrails)

These are thin trails of condensation, formed by the water vapour rushing out from the engines of jet aircraft flying at high altitudes. They are not true clouds, but can remain in the sky for a long time, and grow into cirrus clouds.

Source: www.metoffice.com...

Why don't you do a bit more research (perhaps try some respected science sites instead of geocities) before posting again. You could then start by reading the first post from OTS in the thread and try to refute any of the 6 points he makes.

I love it when people like you take the time to quote someone post like you just did!

FathLukeDuke You missed evey point I made you are truely oneof the sheep that needs to be taken by the nose and get it rubbed in it over and over and you still wont get it.

You have no moral value in your life, no spirituality left inside you are like a computer program.

I wont even attempt to waste time debating because you refuse to try and figure out what someone is trying hard to put into words that are impossible. I have quite a bit more experience with aircraft than you and know what I see.

What grade are you in? As a firefighter I see more than most people do, as an avid fan of aviation I have been witnessing contrails my entire life. In my part of the United States there was an adition to the contrails in about 1998.

There is much more to the human condition than just sterile numbers. There is the soul and spirit. This more than the ability to make and use tools, use higher thought, reasoning or emotion that seperates us from all other animals. Because all other animals have those abilities to a certain extent. Look inside my son and you may have a better life.

As a firefighter I have seen so much of the soul and have saved so many lives my level of understanding, the portion that cannot be put into words even by the very best of literary minds, is very highly tuned son.

Maybe with experience through life you may reach a level above the steril empty state you find yourself in.

You have nothing to offer me but white noise, so the fact that I will never again answer your posts is that I have placed you on ignore.

Goodby, FatherLukeDuke

Heh.

Code 3 - The reason you don't want want to debate anymore is that you have no argument. Just a load of paranoid delusional rubbish.

"What grade are you in?". I'm a 32 year old IT Manager with a degree in Industrial Science and Technology.

BTW you don't lead a sheep by the nose, you're thinking of bulls. Get your analogies right at least.