The Chemtrail Hoax

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke

Off_the_street quite clearly laid out his arguement in 6 easy to digest chunks, all numbered. Like a Chinese restaurant.

Why don't you "believers" take each of these points and present your own evidence that will counter his?

Well to start with Off the Street has still shown NO evidence that there is NO ongoing programme to alter or manipulate the weather.

Nice, so you are asking for some one to prove a negative. Your understanding of the rules of logic sucks.

The only evidence the debunker's offer is the science behind contrails.
Nobody is denying the existence of and the science behind contrails.

Too bad no one has ever been able to offer any evidence of the science behind chemtrails.

The ONE thing Off the Street and his buddy Howard seem to keep ignoring is the fact that some, who have aviation experience, have witnessed what they know was not normal aircraft activity.

Bull.

How do you explain 2 aircraft working together and covering the skies in a checkerboard of trails, con or chem? 2 aircraft going back and forth from horizon to horizon over and over for 2 hours is not normal commercial air traffic.

If you are directly under the intersection of two major air routes, it makes perfect sense, and it is indeed, normal air traffic. Just because you see a bunch of planes flying overhead proves nothing.

So far the extent of your proof is that you saw some persistent contrails once. Big deal. Given the exponential growth of air traffic over the past twenty years, I would be surprised if you haven’t. Furthermore, given the projected growth of air traffic in the future, I expect that you will see even more examples of persistent contrails.

Quack Quack.

OK for those who still don't seem to understand what I have said over and over...

It was 2 aircraft, the same 2 aircraft...I didn't lose sight of either of them for almost 2 hours. When I said horizon to horizon I didn't mean they disappeared OVER the horizon. They flew at the same altitude the whole time.
During this time I observed no other aircraft in the vicinity.
If any of you know San Fran I was in the park at Fort Mason near the Marina. I didn't plan on staying there for 2 hours but when I saw the huge trails I was curious and kept watching. They were making an obvious pattern across the sky. The trails they were making lingered and spread out covering a once blue sky in clouds. When someone can explain to me what they were doing I will happily drop the weather manipulation theory.
This is a rough diagram of the pattern they flew in.
Normal air traffic does not do this for two hours straight.

What's the scale of that drawing? What distances were they covering? What chemicals were they spraying?

Originally posted by HowardRoark
Some more from the 50's


Contrails or cirrus?


cool contrails

two contrails, cool plane, and cooler car!



Do you want me to dig up some more?

Well, nice of you to keep us informed of the 'Forties propaganda shots and one or two from the 'Fifties
Still waiting for some conclusive grid shots from the '60s to the '90s'
They must exist on the National Geographic and British Columbia websites after all

[edit on 22-2-2005 by dh]

An AWACS




aircraft in a holding pattern


more unusual contrail patterns

This may be the wrong place to post this, but is it really our government that is truly controlling all of this "shadow government" alien research and NWO business. Personally I believe that very few people in our government have any knowledge at all, and the most of them are just lazy rich people, who work for the government to maintain disillusional power... Also, many leaders, such as the President don't truly seem to have that much power... especially with these NWO and other top secret ordeals. I've read in multiple places that the President does not even have enough clearance to enter areas such as Area 51, Area 19, S4 etc. and that you are required to have level "Q" clearance level to enter them. So if our government isn't really controlling this secret stuff going on, what government is. I know many people believe in a Shadow Government, but who is in it? Is it people that basically have control over all secret issues in the U.S., and tell our Federal Government what to do?

lovely pictures....

www.freewebs.com...

dh, earlier I asked why you folks don't take the six reasons I listed as to 'why I think chemtrails are a hoax' and discuss them.

No one has.

The closest thing that I saw was when joepits tried to discuss #6, when he said,

"#6 is just plain wrong. Before 1998 or so "contrails" did not stay in the sky so long. This is a fact. Look in old pictures and you will have trouble finding many horizon to horizon contrails."

...and of course, Howard came back with a whole lot of pictures before 1998 to show him that he was wrong.

And, of course, joepits disappears, and you come back and ask for the same data.

dh, have you no integrity at all?

Why do you and joepits and ANOK and all the other "chem-trail" believers dance, twist, turn, and wriggle when someone askes you to actually discuss the six reasons I put in my post?

ANOK is basing his entire belief system on seeing aircraft in a holding pattern that he cannot explain.

You and joepits have no evidence at all, and seem to be actually afraid to debate this sort of thing.

Don't you think the rest of the people here see what you and he are trying to do?

like i aid before several times...

you won't find chemtrails in asian skies... yeah right - the climate there is not conducive for chemtrails.

you won't find chemtrails in russia and china and india.

and yet you constantly see chemtrails over
: europe, Australia/NZ, Japan and US.

why? i don't know u scientists and enjunneers hold all the answers.
debating about chemtrails is useless and endless.

Originally posted by not so offthestreet

1. The existence of a huge and sinister plot is completely lacking in evidence.

there has been much evidence presented in the chemtrail threads. your personal beliefs and attitudes regarding which programs are feasible or desirable, which patents have or haven't been realised, which suggested spraying programs have actually been realised, etc. do not equal 'no evidence'. they equal you denying perfectly good evidence, and trying to make people look stupid by berating them with things like santa clause and walking on water.(by the way, i can walk on water) not all contrail observers believe the plot is huge or sinister. it is just a big question mark to me.
also, just one plane can cover a lot of sky in a day, particles can hang for weeks, if not indefinitely up there, and it needn't be the whole sky every day. you are trying to make it seem impossible because of the magnitude, and yet there have been no claims as to how often or what volumes are being sprayed.

Originally posted by not so offthestreet2. The logistics of a massive spraying program would be an order of magnitude higher than the Manhattan Project, the Apollo Moon Landing, or the Vietnam War -- and simply could not be hidden from any oversight.

well, it's not remaining hidden, is it? there are tens of thousands, i'm guessing, that have noticed the change in contrail behaviour.

Originally posted by not so offthestreet3. There is no evidence whatsoever of aircraft modified to perform some of the spraying methodologies that are proposed.

okay, you saw the picture, so this one is defeated. there cleary are patents, and aircraft equipped with spraying gear.

Originally posted by not so offthestreet4. Anecdotal "evidence" of any illnesses caused by contrails is not backed up by any reliable data (and is actually contradicted by others).

i agree, for the most part. except for that espagnola case.

Originally posted by not so offthestreet5. There has never been any evidence of anyone collecting some of this "chemtrail" material in situ, having it tested by any reputable laboratory, and presented to anyone.

because, you need clearance to fly at those altitudes. it ain't gonna happen if there is a covert operation underway.

Originally posted by not so offthestreet6. Every characteristic of chemtrails can be just as logically and rationally explained by normal contrails under normal (but differentiating) atmospheric conditions.

perhaps. more data is needed. the statistical chances of those broken lines MIGHT not match up with prevailing weather conditions. without a proper study, we're ALL just blowing hot air. i'll admit it. why won't you? are you THAT omnicient?
there MIGHT be planes in abnormal flight patterns. it certainly looks that way to THOUSANDS of people.

i personally have seen low flying planes on two occasions sprayin' the white plumes. i'm talking quite low here. i mean, the tiny specks way up there are harder to accuse, but at lower altitudes, taking into consideration humidity and cloud cover and all that, it is strange. the one over a peace protest(i'm against peace, so, i protested) in twenty below weather COULD be natural(although my intuition told me at the time, that is was very strange, it made a couple passes and no other planes were leaving trails(there is a plane landing every minute or two at the airport, so there is no shortage of planes). the one in eighty-five degree weather is HIGHLY UNLIKELY. both planes were plain white.

Originally posted by Off_The_Street


Don't you think the rest of the people here see what you and he are trying to do?

LOL so what are we trying to do?

Did you look at the pictures above your post?

And I don't think i've twisted turned or wiggled, just explained what i saw.
And I know it wasn't a normal holding pattern. What planes are in a holding pattern for 2 hours? You have more reason to debunk them than I have to say they're real.
Why does it bother you so much? So what if some crack pots believe in chemtrails...And it's obviously very important to you or you wouldn't spend so much of your free time trying to debunk them. Do you not have a life?
Or maybe it's not your free time eh?

Nice find BTW iceTman

[edit on 23/2/2005 by ANOK]

billybob says:

there has been much evidence presented in the chemtrail threads.

I've seen cut-and-pastes from other "chem-trail" sites, but they're not evidence, just a repeat of what someone else says.

Evidence is someone showing the lab results of "chem-trails" collected in situ showing that there's stuff in them that is more than just water, combustion byproducts, and regularly-occuring air pollution. Where's that evidence?

Evidence is someone running a series of investigations that show a statistical correlation between days when there's heavy "chem-trails" and an uptick in admission to doctors' offices, hospitals, and clinics for cardiopulmonary or respiratory incidents, corrected for the time it thakes the "chem-trails" to actually fall out of the sky. Where's that evidence?

You don't have any evidence, billybob; at least not as far as I can see.

"Your personal beliefs and attitudes regarding which programs are feasible or desirable, which patents have or haven't been realised, which suggested spraying programs have actually been realised, etc. do not equal 'no evidence'."

That's absolutely true. Despite the fact that there's no evidence that someone might have realized patents, there might actually be some other evidence which I have overlooked.

Where is it, billybob? Do you have it?

"they equal you denying perfectly good evidence,"

Let me ask you again, billybob. What evidence are you talking about? Are you saying that because there's a patent for a spray device, this is "evidence" for a "chem-trail" plot?

"...and trying to make people look stupid by berating them with things like santa clause..."

That's what's called an "analogy", Billybob. Showing people pictures of normal contrails as evidence for a Secret Plot is what's called a "non sequitur", i.e., "it does not follow"; just like showing people pictures of christmas presents is not evidence of Santa Claus or showing your friend a picture of a dollar under your pillow is not evidence for the Tooth Fairy.

They don't follow, either.