The Miracles of the Quran ( Embryology 14 centuries ago )

You could consider looking into something called Hermeneutics, it is a method of studying ancient text, specifically religious ones. It basically says that you need to look at the time period the txt was written, not just the txt it self.

By doing this you get a better picture of the meaning and reason behind the txt, things like the level of understanding of science at the time...

Which people have mentioned here like the greek knowledge, some of the "miracles of science " you claim where known by the Greeks at the time, so it's not so much of a miracle.

Again this is done with the bible as well as other txt all the time.

@monsatan
"the word in the verse is ma'a. not nutfah.

It does not mean sperm comes out from between backbone and ribs. it means water, or more accurately, a mixture of ma'a - water and amino acids (modern science calls it amino acids, Allah called it ma'a).

modern medicine tells us that when sex is taking place, the semen is forming and aside from sperms coming up from the testicles, the blood from the stomach and water from the body comes to form the white semen. this is o'level biology.

its not sperm, its water that comes forth from between backbone and ribs."

@andy06shake
I agree that humans do corrupt books that are made to improve the lives of humans. It's always been like it, for example when scientists discover something of great knowledge they tend to get killed, ever wondered why humans would be against great discoveries? Some things will never be understandable.
What I disagree with is that you must have scholars that interpret the way verses can be read these days, not everyone can do this though, that's the reason everyone can't be doctor without studying for it. An person must have great knowledge of the religion in order to even interpret a single verse, Muslims have made the mistake to quick-interpret the verses. The meaning of each verse can be very different depending on what circumstances they were released, you have to read the whole Quran to interpret one verse correctly.
The four Imams were those of most knowledge in the islamic community during their lifetime, It's very sad that we don't have one on our time. There are laws, rules and moral codes in Islam that must be taking into consideration along with the modern moral codes and laws. You can't simply ignore the fact that laws other than Islamic exists these days. That's why we have scholar leaders that do it for the rest so that everyone won't be able to interpret it in their way which would give us 2 billion different interpretations. But the Imams aren't alone, they don't decide to interpret a verse a certain way if others disagree. And those who falsely interpret a verse has surely done a great sin.
I can understand why you would think it's trouble that people interpret verses in so many ways.

Imam Malik - the first of the four great imams and founder of the Maliki school of thought. He lived his whole life in Madina where much of the Quran was revealed and most of the legal practices of Islam established. He spent his life studying, recording and clarifying the legal parameters and precedents which was passed down to him by the first two generations of Muslims who were the direct inheritors of the perfected form of Islam left by the Prophet (saw). This book not only gives the biographical details of the Imam's life but also puts it in its historical context and most importantly, shows us the methods he used in reaching his legal conclusions which played a vital part in preserving exactly the legacy of the pure Divine Guidance left by the Prophet and his Companions.

Imam Al Shafi - founder of the Shafi'i school of thought. He was remarkable in that he resolved the differences of opinion that arose in the still evolving Muslim community and brought them together in the most outstanding legal system in the whole history of mankind. This book looks at his life and traces the development of his thought. It talks of his teachers and his followers and shows how the system he devised grew out of the intellectual and political currents of his time. It also gives an in-depth historical analysis of the various movements and sects which formed the background to the Islamic world in which he lived.

Imam Abu Hanifa - died in 150 AH/767CE. He met the companions of the Prophet (saw) and is counted amongst the Tabi'un (followers). He is renowned for his piercing intellect as faqih, his scrupulousness, integrity of character and his resoluteness in the face of oppression. His school is historically associated with the rule in India and is the most widely followed school of thought. This makes his study particularly important for the English speaking readers since it gives them an in-depth appreciation of the school followed by the majority of the Muslims in the world.

Imam Ahmad Abn Hambal - chronologically the last of the four imams and lived just after the first three generations of exemplary Muslims, thus confronting a slightly different situation from that faced by his three predecessors. This necessitated a fresh approach to the legal issues arising out of the situation of the rapidly expanding urban development and imperial government which had started to engulf much of the Muslim community. The book shows how Imam Ahmad through his incredible personal integrity and scrupulous adherence to sound tradition was able to chart a course through a story period in which he lived. His example provided his followers with the legal bases of what later became the Hanbali madhab.

reply to post by ImaMuslim


Number one, that's false. Semen comes from the testes and from behind the prostate.
Number two. What do the words sulb and tara'ib mean to you? Because I may have proven that you either don't speak Arabic or don't know what you are talking about

@benrl
How could the Greeks have know it when modern scientists say we have only known since recent times? I need to find the story about the Greeks and their history of Embryology and what they knew.
For example modern scientists say that we would need microscopes to look into the tiny cells, then how did the Greeks get hold of microscopes, were they created back then?

"These lenses were not used much until the end of the 13th century when spectacle makers were producing lenses to be worn as glasses.
The early simple “microscopes” which were really only magnifying glasses had one power, usually about 6X - 10X . One thing that was very common and interesting to look at was fleas and other tiny insects. These early magnifiers were hence called “flea glasses."
Source: www.microscope-microscope.org...

It is a known fact that the Romans ( not Greeks) has used glass objects to zoom into objects by experimenting glasses with different shapes on each other. But they were far away from being able to see cells. It wasn't until the 17th century that Anthony Leeuwenhoek created a microscope that could magnify up to 270x it's original size. This was the time people were able to see things which they had never seen, meaning they couldn't have known of Embryology before this time. But Islam had described it, 1000 years before that discovery? But it didn't started until the 20th century, meaning 1300 years after Islam had spoken about it.

Originally posted by ImaMuslim
"According to Dr. Keith Moore, the modern classification of embryonic development stages which is adopted throughout the world, is not easily comprehensible, since it identifies stages on a numerical basis i.e. stage 1, stage 2, etc. The divisions revealed in the QUR'AN are based on distinct and easily identifiable forms or shapes, which the embryo passes through. These are based on different phases of prenatal development and provide elegant scientific descriptions that are comprehensible and practical. Similar embryological stages of human development have been described in the following verse:"

So it's not easy comprehensible in the numerical stage that the embryonic stages are adopted, maybe the Quran can tell us?

So how come Dr. Keith Moore never became a Muslim?

And how come he only said stuff about the koran when he was in Saudi Arabia?

And how come what he had to say about the koran wasn’t published in a peer reviewed publication dealing with embryology?

And how come since he has left Saudi Arabia he has distanced himself from what he said when he was in Saudi Arabia?


A sceptic might suppose he was bullied into saying things he knew to be untrue or the Saudis bribed him to say nice things about the koran

Can you quote the verse in the Quran you're telling me about, thanks. Sorry we were speaking about a different verses, I was talking about the verses in chapter 86 verses 5-7.

5. So let man see from what he is created!
6. He is created from a water gushing forth
7. Proceeding from between the back-bone and the ribs,

I hope this answers helps you fully understand that sperm does not only contain sperm.

"Simply put sperm is produced in the testicles (balls) of males while semen is formed in the prostate gland. The prostate gland produces most of the fluid that comes out as ejaculate. Semen is made up of 65 percent of fluid from the seminal vesicles, 30 to 35 percent from the prostate and 5 percent from the vasa. Semen contains citric acid, free amino acids, fructose, enzymes, phosphorylcholine, prostaglandin, potassium, and zinc. The amount of semen produced varies from a few drops to about 6 ml. One amount of ejaculate may contain between 40 million to 600 million sperm depending on the volume and the length of time stored before ejaculating. Yet, the quantity of sperm produced will only cover the head of a pin. I hope I was helpful."

Originally posted by ImaMuslim

Would you then care to explain how he performed miracles? Perhaps explain the splitting of the moon, or don't you believe in it because you weren't there to see it?

splitting of the moon

riiiight
Sorry but I’m going to need some evidence for that one

reply to post by ImaMuslim


You seem like like a learned individual in many ways my friend. I dont know why you feel the need to allow others to control and constrain your way of thought, because thats what absolute belief in any religious rhetoric does. It makes you think that there is only one way of looking at the mutiverse, there way.

There are many other ways to look at things, not just Muhammad's(Peace be upon him) obviously flawed view, i say obviously flawed because he was after all Human. To err is to be human and so his views on the Omniverse must contain errors, simple.

I have just 3 simple rules that i follow in this verse. Take what you do not have, have what you cannot take, never hurt anyone thats weeker than yourself. This serves me well and i beleve would please any deity that happens to be keeping an eye on us Monkeys.

Wake up and smell the coffee mate! Trust in yourself, you dont need no book!

reply to post by ImaMuslim


Sura 86:5-7

Yes I've answered you monsatan, you're the one that isn't unaware of what really comes out when a male ejaculates. So the verses are correct in saying that "He is created from a water gushing forth" 86:6.

reply to post by ImaMuslim


"Yes I've answered you monsatan, you're the one that isn't unaware of what really comes out when a male ejaculates. So the verses are correct in saying that "He is created from a water gushing forth" 86:6."

So does this mean i should stop Masterbating then? Whats the Korans official view on pulling the pudden anyway, is it considered to be a sin?

I know what you're thinking Andy, but we were made for a reason, you may think that the reason is to live, which isn't wrong. But we were made to fight for the eternal life and not one that feels like opening a door and on the other side is death. In order to get that eternal life you have to fight for it, that's why I obey Allah and his book that was sent to guide mankind.

"The creation of the Heavens and the Earth is indeed greater then the creation of mankind; yet, most of mankind know not." [Surah Ghafir, verse 57]

"We did not create the jinn and men except to worship us" [Surah adh-Dhariyyat, verse 56)

You can't simply say that the universe was made by chance, there must be a creator no doubt. And what's better than a creator that's mercy is great than his wrath?

"Allah created mercy with a hundred parts. One of which was sent down upon the jinn and human beings and other living creatures. It is out of this one part that they love each other, show kindness to one another, and even the animals treat their offspring with affection. Allah has reserved the remaining ninety-nine parts for his true worshippers on the Day of Judgment."

Do you really think I'm going to give up those 99 parts for this 1? I may be blessed by Allah that I'm a muslim, but I pray for you that he may guide you to. But you must ask for it yourself, If you don't want truth and guidance you will perhaps not get it. I'm not going to sell this life for the one which is waiting and is eternal. You may think eternal life is not possible but then you're wrong, what about a rock, it's a creation and it can have almost eternal life right? Even if it's not a living being it's a creation and therefore something that exists. If it's possible for planets to exist in millions of years then it must be possible for humans to. But the problem is that it won't happen in this world.

reply to post by ImaMuslim


I will let the comment on semen (from the seminal vesicles behind the prostate and testes) slide

So you've never heard of the words?
Shaykh `Abd al-Wahhâb al-Turayrî seems to think every Arab know what they mean. You know what you translate as "backbone" and "ribs"

According to Islamic debunkers that's not what they mean. So are they lying? It would prove my point that you don't have to rewrite the Quran to change the meaning if they are

Do you even speak arabic?

So you are telling me sulb is not strictly a male part and that tara'ib isn't strictly a female part? And that the gushing liquid is supposed to be the combined gametes like your imams wanted to convince me?

I think I've been studying this far longer than you have by the way

Sorry Andy, I don't know if it's a sin or not. But what I think about it personally is that it has no use, may cause harm and helps you in no way, therefore it's not healthy for a human being to masturbate. It's like smoking, you may like it but there are no benefits until proven. I know it's grown into a cult that it's normal for every human to masturbate, I think it's completely wrong. If you were to do in the old times, they would of probably thought of you as a crazy man, but it gets me thinking, did humans masturbate in the old times?

@Monsatan
I speak four languages but Arabic is not one of them, but I do know that the Quran wouldn't have been translated into English if the translation was to be wrong. Even then I can't take the English translation of the Quran as the original because the Arabic is far more describable than that of the English. Even If I don't know Arabic doesn't mean it's beyond my reach to know it, I can always internet trustworthy sources to interpret it for me. Yes you may have studied it way more than me, but that still doesn't explain that you may have missed some parts where I picked up on. I can't strictly tell you what the Quran means from verses because I don't want to misinterpret the verse other than the obvious that I can understand. I explained to you the verse but I cannot talk to you about the rest of biology because it's beyond my knowledge. The verses speak of the male but I cannot tell you if it's strictly for males and not for females. After all I've never heard of females having sperms or semen.

"sulb" is the backbone and "tara'ib" the breast- bones, i.e. the ribs.

Sperm and semen aren't the same thing by the way.

reply to post by ImaMuslim


The meaning of life(our existance on this plane) is clear for all to see. The meaning of life is to experience! Its the only logical reason you can infer that explains evil or good! Why else would your Allah allow free will and then teach us to kill one another for what simply amounts to sport(War). If you are good or bad in this verse chances are you will be the opposite in your next verse, our souls need to experience all aspects of creation before we venture back to the Godhead(Allah in your terminology).

Okay Andy, Let me ask a few questions.

1: Why do you believe that we have souls?
2: When has Allah told muslims to kill innocent people? Quote the hadith (saying of prophet Muhammad ( peace be upon him) or the verse of the Quran and let me answer you. Because from what I understand, America has indoctrinated a lot of people into hating and spreading lies about Islam. Sorry If I'm offending the Americans here but it's true, you're unaware of what your government is doing, you can't disagree on me with that. If you don't see the anti-Islamic propaganda that's going on, I can't blame you.

I believe that you're a great person to hang out with but you must know that there is something that's beyond what we think of ourselves. And it seems to me that you ignoring that fact, just like the alien-hunters. They're so desperate to find something out there that they imagine up other forms of beings that live on others planets. I sincerely do not blame them, I believe that there exists other form of intelligence other than humans, that is Jinns (spirits) whom have capabilities that's beyond ours. But these alien-hunters are looking for aliens in the wrong area. To see is to belief so many may say, but people belief in God yet they do not see him. I breath yet I do not see what it is I slung into my lungs.

reply to post by ImaMuslim


Fact is, there are several versions. And you haven't read the (real) Quran because you can't even speak the language it's written in.

Some imams say it means backbone and ribs, some say sulb is male and tara'ib is female. Some say the water gushing forth is the male/female reproductive juices. The fact that someone who can read Arabic has to ask the imams what they mean should show you how easily corrupt able it is...

The fact that they change the meaning of words should show you how blind you are.
Ready for links?? On a tablet, so this will take a second

www.ahlalhdeeth.com...

Mr. Wood has understood the verse to mean that both ‘sulb’ and ‘tara’ib’ refer to the male. In other words, the fluid emitted refers to the semen, and it comes out from in between the sulb and the tara’ib. However, the truth of the matter is that the word ‘tarai’b’—according to the Arabic—is actually referring to a female body part. Much like the English word ‘penis’ can only be ascribed to a male, the word ‘tara’ib’ can only be applied to a female.
This is not apologetic modernism or revisionism; the classical works of Quranic commentary throughout the last 1400 years confirm this view categorically. In other words, the sulb belongs to the male, and the tara’ib belongs to the female. This is the view of the Muslims since the last fourteen hundred years, and there is consensus (ijma) on this matter, since the time of the Sahabah (the Prophet’s disciples) until today.

Shaykh `Abd al-Wahhâb al-Turayrî of IslamToday.com writes:

The phrase “mâ’ dâfiq” (emitted fluid) is not restricted in meaning to sperm but is used in Arabic for both the sperm and the egg. Ibn Kathîr, in his commentary on this verse, writes: “It emanates from the man and the woman, and with Allah’s permission, the child comes forth as a product of both.”

The words translated as “backbone” (sulb) and “ribs” (tarâ’ib) are not understood in Arabic to belong to the same person. Arabs understand the “sulb” to refer to a part of the male body and the “tarâ’ib” to a part of the female. Ibn Kathîr states: “It refers to the ‘sulb’ of the man and the ‘tarâ’ib’ of the woman…” He then quotes this interpretation on the authority of the Prophet’s companion Ibn `Abbâs. This same understanding is given in all the major classical works of Qur’anic commentary.

wikiislam.net...'an_and_Semen_Production_(Qur'an_86:7)

Drs Maurice Bucaille and A.K. Giraud: Sulb and tara’ib refer to the sexual areas of the man and woman.
Ahmed A. Abd-Allah: Accepts and extends Bucaille’s assumption, and claims that all the acknowledged translations and tafsirs are in error, as sulb and tara’ib does not refer to a man’s backbone and ribs, but to the man’s “hardening” (i.e. penis) and a woman’s erogenous zones (not including the vagina).
Dr Zakir Naik: Sulb and tara’ib refers to the backbone and ribs of both sexes, however the verses refer only to the gonads in the embryonic stage, and not to adults in the act of sexual reproduction.
Dr Jamal Badawi: The verses refer not to semen production but to the blood of the aorta as the ‘gushing fluid poured forth’.
Tafsir Ibn Kathir: Sulb refers to the man’s backbone, and tara’ib refers to the woman’s chest.
Tafsir al-Jalalayn - issuing from between the loins, of the man, and the breast-bones, of the woman.
Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs- (That issued from between the loins) of a man (and ribs) the ribs of a woman.
Muhammad Asad: Sulb refers to the man’s loins and tara’ib refers to the woman’s pelvic arch.
Moiz Amjad, the “Learner”, makes three claims; a) Sulb and tara’ib refers to the blood supply of the testes emanating from between the man’s back and ribs, b) The embryonic gonads originate in the area as per Dr Zakir Naik, and c) The sulb and tara’ib region is a euphemism for the male sexual organ.

And

The various attempts to show that the Qur'an correctly describes semen production are not supported by modern scientific knowledge.
These propositions are frequently conflicting, for instance, Ibn Kathir refers to tara’ib as a female organ, while other tafsirs claim it belongs to the man.[9] Another conflict is the definition of sulb to mean either the backbone or the ‘hardening’ or the loins.
A point often missed, though alluded to by Dr. Campbell, is the phrase “min bain” which literally means “from between”. If this interpretation is accepted, which seems to be the case from a reading of the commonly available translations, then one must also note that semen emanates from the penis, and not from between the penis and the vagina. To be strictly correct, semen emanates from the penis into the vagina. This point seems to rule out tara’ib as being anything to do with the female sexual partner.

reply to post by ImaMuslim

"Okay Andy, Let me ask a few questions.

1: Why do you believe that we have souls?
2: When has Allah told muslims to kill innocent people? Quote the hadith (saying of prophet Muhammad ( peace be upon him) or the verse of the Quran and let me answer you. Because from what I understand, America has indoctrinated a lot of people into hating and spreading lies about Islam. Sorry If I'm offending the Americans here but it's true, you're unaware of what your government is doing, you can't disagree on me with that. If you don't see the anti-Islamic propaganda that's going on, I can't blame you."

1: I believe we possess souls so we may learn all aspects of creation, so in time we can return to the Godhead and make it whole again pritty much Alpha and Omega.
2: Dont really know what you are asking me here, dont get me started on America coz i think there pritty much the new Nazi Germany(Goverment not the poor people). Trust me i know what my Goverment is all about and will do everything in my power to resist it. I live in the U.K daft illuminati slaves that we are. Some of us are still fighting the good fight dont ever forget that!

Yes you're correct on saying that I won't fully understand the Quran because I'm not capable of reading or writing Arabic. Is that like saying Muhammad (peace be upon him) could not have produced the Quran because he couldn't write or read? Or would you admit the fact that reading or writing in Arabic doesn't mean I'm wrong in interpreting what the verses say.

Here are the verses;

5. So let man see from what he is created!

6. He is created from a water gushing forth

7. Proceeding from between the back-bone and the ribs,

8. Verily, (Allah) is Able to bring him back (to life)!

It talks about about how a human is created and that it's from a water gushing forth, proceeding which means ´an action´ from between the back-bone and the ribs. Why does it matter if it's male/female, because we aren't discussing that right now. If the Imams have interpreted it in another way, then I can't blame them. I never said my interpretation was 100% correct, that's why you must question against me so that I may get to what is correct.
The action, the procedure is coming from the back-bone and the ribs. The verse first describes what it is, then it says where it comes from. If you're in doubt what we are discussing maybe you should take a book on the subject and study it a little further, which I may need to.

Thank you for the information you quoted monsaton, I never knew they have different opinions, but I want to be clear that the Quran does not mentioned that it only assumes one person when it says back-bone and ribs. And what is more unclear to me is that, Ibn Kathir was born in the early 14th century meaning that he was born 700 years ago. We know today more than we knew back then, so shouldn't the interpretation be more correct to make today than 700 years ago? It's a difficult task to try to interpret it and you must be well educated in the subject in order to do so. But when Ibn Kathir made his interpretation he never said it was a hundred pro-cent correct, therefore we can assume that it can be interpreted in better detail.


I have to take a break now, sorry.

pro·ceed·ing (pr-sdng, pr-) n.
1. A course of action; a procedure.
2. proceedings A sequence of events occurring at a particular place or occasion: hectic proceedings in the kitchen.
3. proceedings A record of business carried on by a society or other organization; minutes.
4. Law a. Legal action; litigation. Often used in the plural. b. The instituting or conducting of legal action.

reply to post by ImaMuslim


Just listen for a minute dammit (when you get back)


www.hamzatzortzis.com...

The above verses have been condemned by various critics and commentators as being scientifically inaccurate, and any attempt to salvage an accurate meaning from them has been suggested to be tantamount to textual acrobatics. This evaluation arises from an analysis of the words sulb and tara’ib which have been translated to mean ‘backbone’ and ‘ribs’. Those who maintain the scientific inaccuracy of the Qur’an claim the above translation for the words sulb and tara’ib cannot be reconciled with modern developments in physiology. However, after a lexical analysis of these words it will be seen that these words do in fact concur with modern physiology.