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Debunkers: Irrational, Uninformed and Ignorant By Stanton Friedman

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posted on Apr, 2 2012 @ 05:50 PM
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Originally posted by WingedBull

Originally posted by thesearchfortruth
Here's an interesting document.

Can you debunk it?


Can you prove it to be real?


There is nothing suggesting it is faked.

I cannot prove it is real, but it would seem to corroborate the "trolls" view of things, wouldn't it...




posted on Apr, 2 2012 @ 05:51 PM
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Originally posted by thesearchfortruth
reply to post by dejarmaX
 





Said document is only referring to a downed satellite, nothing more as far as I know...


That's an interesting idea, could you provide evidence this is the case?
i feel no need to!! i'm not trying to prove anything.... if you feel this could be evidence of a crashed alien craft, then have fun-- enjoy



posted on Apr, 2 2012 @ 05:55 PM
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Originally posted by dejarmaX

Originally posted by thesearchfortruth
reply to post by dejarmaX
 





Said document is only referring to a downed satellite, nothing more as far as I know...


That's an interesting idea, could you provide evidence this is the case?
i feel no need to!! i'm not trying to prove anything.... if you feel this could be evidence of a crashed alien craft, then have fun-- enjoy


Can't you just find me a link real quickly that provides evidence for what you're saying?

If this was resolved years ago it can't be that hard...



posted on Apr, 2 2012 @ 06:03 PM
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Originally posted by thesearchfortruth

Originally posted by dejarmaX

Originally posted by thesearchfortruth
reply to post by dejarmaX
 





Said document is only referring to a downed satellite, nothing more as far as I know...


That's an interesting idea, could you provide evidence this is the case?
i feel no need to!! i'm not trying to prove anything.... if you feel this could be evidence of a crashed alien craft, then have fun-- enjoy


Can't you just find me a link real quickly that provides evidence for what you're saying?

If this was resolved years ago it can't be that hard...
so find it yourself then
like i said: i'm not trying to prove anything..



posted on Apr, 2 2012 @ 06:33 PM
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Originally posted by thesearchfortruth
There is nothing suggesting it is faked.


Then what is there to prove it is real?


Originally posted by thesearchfortruth
I cannot prove it is real, but it would seem to corroborate the "trolls" view of things, wouldn't it...


Asking for evidence is "trolling?" That is how the scientific method works. The burden of proof is on the claimant. It is not for others to debunk the claimants assertions, but for the claimant to prove their assertions are true. To call a want a proof, a rejection of blind-belief without question, trolling shows the absolute, empty abyss of thought from which some believers draw.



posted on Apr, 2 2012 @ 06:34 PM
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Originally posted by TheLegend
lol this guy^


I know, crazy that someone should ask for evidence. Hilarious.



posted on Apr, 2 2012 @ 07:51 PM
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reply to post by WingedBull
 





Asking for evidence is "trolling?"


No, you misunderstand.

You tried to make a connection between people who believe aliens are visiting the earth and internet trolls.

Right here:



You should stop feeding the trolls, err believers. Actually that is a valid comparison,


I used trolls in quotes to express your view of certain believers. I was not saying you were trolling.



posted on Apr, 2 2012 @ 10:46 PM
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Personally, I feel that while debunkers have harmed ufology in numerous ways (notice I said debunkers, not skeptics, skepticism is essential when dealing with this subject, imo) ufologists do plenty of damage themselves with their constant and counter productive infighting on the subject. What's the point? You have theories, other people have theories, they don't always agree but they don't have to. We need to realize that it's the nature of the beast that we aren't always going to agree and stop wasting time on fighting amongst ourselves. Concentrate on furthering the subject matter, not tearing down people who don't agree with you and that goes for both sides.



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 12:07 AM
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Originally posted by thesearchfortruth
You tried to make a connection between people who believe aliens are visiting the earth and internet trolls.


The connection was in jest, a parody of another member's post about the evils of skeptics. All I did was change some words.


Originally posted by thesearchfortruth
I used trolls in quotes to express your view of certain believers. I was not saying you were trolling.


But you are right. I misunderstood. My apologies.



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 12:08 AM
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Originally posted by muadib420
Personally, I feel that while debunkers have harmed ufology in numerous ways (notice I said debunkers, not skeptics, skepticism is essential when dealing with this subject, imo)...



Please, list them.

If debunkers are wrong, then it would be impossible for them to damage UFO research. The research would speak for itself.



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 12:28 AM
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Originally posted by OZtracized

Originally posted by The Shrike
reply to post by Frank Warren
 


BTW, I met him twice and took his photo twice, I know who he is and I never liked him or what he stands for. Man, I can't stand bs!


I agree! Totally full of it! I'd love to see the pics you took of Stan.

Could you post them please?


I took this photo of Stanton in 1978 at the United Nations when they had a special assembly to look into UFOs. The other photo was later in the early '80s in Culver City, Calif., at a UFO convention. There, I took at photo of him looking at the photo below. The photo is not in the digital domain, I have it in the proverbial shoe box.

Some members here may wonder why I come down hard on Friedman when he is "adored" by many. It has to do with the contents of his book. I am a seeker of truth and I found that Stanton is not, he is interested in a quick buck so if he were to write the truth about the various topics he writes re: UFOs, he knows that the truth doesn't hold much and his books would be pamphlets! He supports the Hill case as if he had special knowledge instead of what is available publicly and, again, if he were to reveal Betty Hill's UFO activities before her alleged abduction, plus what she claims mostly came from a TV show, Friedman wouldn't have much to write about. So he resorts to bs 'cause that's what sells and nobody challenges him.




posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 12:38 AM
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Originally posted by WingedBull

Originally posted by muadib420
Personally, I feel that while debunkers have harmed ufology in numerous ways (notice I said debunkers, not skeptics, skepticism is essential when dealing with this subject, imo)...



Please, list them.

If debunkers are wrong, then it would be impossible for them to damage UFO research. The research would speak for itself.


I should have been more specific, debunkers have damaged the public perception of UFO research, not the research itself, in my opinion. We both know that the average joe out there isn't going to go past whatever gets plastered on Fox or their local evening news when it comes to any kind of research, let alone UFO research. So when someone who has obviously done little to no research gets on the tube and says that a mass sighting witnessed by hundreds of people is a Chinese lantern or a flock of birds, and they make these declarations all the time no matter how many times their theories have been proven completely and utterly wrong and sometimes downright impossible, it hurts the public perception of UFO research. Specific example is certain debunkers saying that the Roswell crash was a mogul balloon with a test pilot dummy on board and that's what people mistook for alien bodies, never mind the fact that Roswell happened in 1947 and they didn't use dummies attached to balloons until 1952 or 1953 according to the governments own documents. Never mind the fact that their theory is completely and utterly out the realm of possibility, they feed that crap to the public and nobody bothers to look into it any further and then they say Case Closed, go back to watching Bill O'Reilly and eating your TV dinners. One thing Friedman is right about is his three main problems with debunkers, in a lot of cases he's right on.



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 12:41 AM
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Originally posted by thesearchfortruth
reply to post by The Shrike
 


I can't prove you wrong because I admit that the facts aren't completely on my side, but I can provide some evidence.

Here's an interesting document.

Can you debunk it?


There is nothing to debunk. The official explanation that it might be part of one of three satellites is a satisfactory, prosaic explanation. I liked the part about the rivets! You're gonna have to do better. You gotta come up with something that cannot be explained and is still considered a mystery. I'm not satisfied with UFO parts, I want either a whole ship/craft or large enough pieces to create wonder and provide no easy answer. Even then, whatever is recovered has to be totally out of this world and no connections to humans. Your example was connected to humans.

I think the fact that you admitted that the facts are not on your side. You can say I told you so.



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 12:42 AM
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reply to post by WingedBull
 





But you are right. I misunderstood. My apologies.


Oh no need to apologize


I understand what you were talking about now, thanks for clearing that up...



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 12:45 AM
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Originally posted by WingedBull

Originally posted by The Shrike

So what are you doing here wasting your time and our time with your scholarly discourse that triggers nothing but laughs? Don't you realize you're in a public forum and everything is up for grabs? Don't you respect the rights of everyone to hold an opinion even if it goes against what you hold dear? Get off your high horse, it's a hard fall.


I think it is very telling that the mods will allow a member to refer to other members as "psychos," "trolls" and "malevolent," nothing but a long-winded ad hominem against them.
edit on 2-4-2012 by WingedBull because: (no reason given)


Tell the ATS administrative committee of your grievances. They might ask you to find another forum more to your liking. At least you won't find me there!



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 12:57 AM
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reply to post by The Shrike
 


Here is some evidence for a cover-up.

Here is a good video summing up some of the evidence...


Italian UFO Cover-up?

Height 611 UFO Crash

John Callahan cover-up testimony


Alleged Insider testimony regarding the subject:


Less direct cover-up evidence:


Interesting video regarding and alleged piece of the Roswell debris. Not really sure what to make of it, and I don't consider it proof of anything, but it is interesting if gunuine.



Tell me what you think of this stuff...

edit on 3-4-2012 by thesearchfortruth because: eta



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 01:00 AM
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Originally posted by Imtor
For me Stanton Friedman is a serious researcher, he does try hard to get the facts but when he doesn't he lets his BELIEF do the rest of the job for him. Kind of like Tsoukalos and the guys from AATheory but in its lesser form, while the ATT proponents quickly allow belief to complete the started sentences for them.

So Stanton cannot get to the truth any closer than any other of the researchers, He is not and has not beem with high clearance, he definitely is turning into a TV star more than actually bringing anything closer to thet truth. I do not diss his work and efforts but from his current position, he cannot do anything.

Only presidents, gov officials, military officials people who actually want to speak and WON'T speak because hey human instincts 'why make my life bad?'

Honestly it is likely that if I had known the truth, I would have kept it for myself, seeing how humans do their daily things, not realizing what is going on actually..

Call it human nature, we are all egoistic, eventually.


Don't get me wrong, I rail against Friedman 'cause this thread is about him calling the pot black. I've read almost every book about UFOs/aliens that have been published since the 1950s and I read my first UFO book in 1957. The majority are fantasy with very little facts beyond official documents. Some were entertaining even when they relied on, mostly, hearsay. There were the books where the authors created encyclopaedias and didn't let their egos burst forth. Some authors such as Jacques Vallee were the most interesting to read 'cause they didn't deal with mundane, everyday reports, they went beyond that exploring new ways to look and think about the phenomenom. Then you have the popular authors of which Friedman was one of the first but he strayed.

In my opinion, the best book on Roswell and closest to the truth is "Roswell : Inconvenient Facts and the Will to Believe" by Karl T. Pflock. Friedman could never get this close to the truth for he'd rather push the fantasy of a crashed saucer and pickled aliens. He also believes the Phoenix flares were UFO-connected.


Publication Date: June 2001
In this definitive study of the Roswell incident, longtime UFO researcher Karl T Pflock - who is convinced that some UFO reports are real alien sightings - concludes, after an exhaustive investigation, that no alien craft or bodies were ever found at Roswell. Pflock admits at the outset that he too once strongly believed there might be something to the Roswell alien stories, and he describes how he then came to discover the whole truth. Using formerly classified records he proves that the US government has absolutely no physical evidence of aliens, shows how critical weather data completely refute key claims of Roswell believers, and explains why the case now rises and falls on the testimony of just one witness, who cleverly manipulated leading investigators and continues to do so today. Pflock's intensive research and access to once-classified documents - including facsimilies of important formerly classified documents, 28 witness affidavits, and the entire Pratt-Marcel interview transcript - make this book must reading even for UFO buffs - believers and skeptics alike - who feel they know everything about Roswell.



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 01:53 AM
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Originally posted by dejarmaX

Originally posted by thesearchfortruth


Here's an interesting document.

Can you debunk it?
Personally I dislike the word debunk in places like this..... To me this word suggests those who are not convinced via the data put forward regarding this enigma are stupid because they 'don't believe' & are ignorant of the truth!! A so called TRUTH that no one has managed to prove yet! Therefore technically it's NOT the TRUTH.
snip
dej...


Geezus, the way you carry on! For your disinfo, I'm a debunker and a darn good one and I've had successful threads here about who and what I debunked. Members love a well-researched debunking of alleged false claims. I debunked Hoagland's "crystal towers". Look it up and have a good read. The is the place for debunkers as well as skeptics what with the huge amount of threads whose contents are questionable. Don't be against a free education.



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 02:01 AM
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Originally posted by thesearchfortruth
reply to post by The Shrike
 


Here is some evidence for a cover-up.
snip
Tell me what you think of this stuff...

edit on 3-4-2012 by thesearchfortruth because: eta


Thanks for the links but I can't get into rehashing old stuff. I'm certainly not going to listen to Richard Dolan and you should check out the thread(s) where he is mostly lambasted. I communicated with him before he became that last word and he was a believer and I have no patience with believers, they don't deal with evidential satisfaction.

I have the Height 611 original documentary on video tape, lots of nice looking little beads but nothing conclusive as far as finding a UFO, ditto for the others. That stuff is for tyros and I've been around the block a few times.



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 04:27 PM
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Originally posted by The Shrike

Originally posted by dejarmaX

Originally posted by thesearchfortruth


Here's an interesting document.

Can you debunk it?
Personally I dislike the word debunk in places like this..... To me this word suggests those who are not convinced via the data put forward regarding this enigma are stupid because they 'don't believe' & are ignorant of the truth!! A so called TRUTH that no one has managed to prove yet! Therefore technically it's NOT the TRUTH.
snip
dej...


Geezus, the way you carry on!
i'm in tears



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