Recent Implosion of the Amway Center Raises Further Doubts

Originally posted by -PLB-
So truthers who believe in CD have no evidence whatsoever, and their argument goes like this: "I don't understand how building 7 could collapse like the OS says it did. If you don't prove it is possible, it was CD".

Three fallacies in one. Argument from ignorance, reversing the burden of proof and a false dichotomy.

Wrong. There are eyewitnesses who, on multiple TV stations AND interviews stated they heard multiple explosions going on in WTC 7. The firemen that rescued these witnesses also stated the same. Also, BBC reports of the buildings collapse almost a full 5 minutes before it happens? That's awful curious (at best).

Furthermore, don't you find it curious that not one - NOT ONE - skyscraper in WORLD HISTORY EVER - collapsed from fire and yet on 9/11 we are to believe that 3 of them do in one day? Two towers that were built to withstand an impact from airliners and WTC 7 who at the time had less external damage then several of the other outlying buildings surrounding the World Trade Center complex? Really?
I believe historical context is key here - we learn valuable lessons from history and you simply cannot ignore lessons learned from the past...
Source

Talk about denying ignorance...take some of your own advice.

Originally posted by zeeon
reply to post by Six Sigma

 

Yes because everyone is on guard now, AFTER The attacks! I mean really, your argument there really doesn't mean a whole lot because we're in the post 9/11 world now. Could have been much different pre-9/11. Lot's of things were...like being able to hijack a plane with box cutters (if you still subscribe to the official story).

Just my .02 cents.

I understand what you're saying. I do agree with you regarding the pre and post 9/11 way of life. I have been working in very large buildings most of my adult life. I can assure you, the magnitude of the tasks involved with rigging massive skyscrapers for secret controlled demolitions would NOT go undetected.

reply to post by jude11

And Thermite has been proven to be all over the place at ground zero. Many times.

Citation with reputable control group needed here.

Do you realize thermite is a gravity burn compound difficult to initiate? Tell us how thermite take out columns? *This should be good*

Originally posted by zeeon
Wrong. There are eyewitnesses who, on multiple TV stations AND interviews stated they heard multiple explosions going on in WTC 7. The firemen that rescued these witnesses also stated the same. Also, BBC reports of the buildings collapse almost a full 5 minutes before it happens? That's awful curious (at best).

You are making another fallacy. Firstly, explosions are very common in a building fire. In no way explosions means controlled demolition. Secondly, the explosions of controlled demolition we have on video are clearly audible and explode in clear patterns. Neither was not the case with the WTC. The conclusion is that those eyewitnesses hearing explosions is evidence of a fire, not of controlled demolition.

Furthermore, don't you find it curious that not one - NOT ONE - skyscraper in WORLD HISTORY EVER - collapsed from fire and yet on 9/11 we are to believe that 3 of them do in one day? Two towers that were built to withstand an impact from airliners and WTC 7 who at the time had less external damage then several of the other outlying buildings surrounding the World Trade Center complex? Really?

Nope not curious at all. You may not have heard this (it is a detail that is quickly overlooked) but those two towers had airplanes crashing into them. The resulting chaos disabled the sprinkler system of building 7. Guess what, those events have never ever happened before.

I believe historical context is key here - we learn valuable lessons from history and you simply cannot ignore lessons learned from the past...
Source

Another fallacy (no surprise of course). You can not generalize like this from a hand full of cases, especially when the conditions are so dissimilar.

Talk about denying ignorance...take some of your own advice.

You don't need to worry about that.

Flashes and popping noises were reported by NY firefighters in Jim Marrs little talked about book. This was reported for WTC 1 and 2. Red and grey nano-thermite chips were found in the "dust' of the world trade centers. That's why the dust was considered especially hazardous to one's lung tissue. Highly advanced cutter charges. They ate right through the steel members. Those buildings never could have fallen without internal help.

Originally posted by Oannes
Flashes and popping noises were reported by NY firefighters in Jim Marrs little talked about book. This was reported for WTC 1 and 2. Red and grey nano-thermite chips were found in the "dust' of the world trade centers. That's why the dust was considered especially hazardous to one's lung tissue. Highly advanced cutter charges. They ate right through the steel members. Those buildings never could have fallen without internal help.

Are you freaking kidding me? Oannes, it has been mentioned at least 5 times in this thread alone about the NON EXISTENT thermite. This has been proven beyond ANY doubt.

The buildings DID have internal help after two massive plane flew into them. FIRE & Missing Flame retardant. Regarding the "popping" noises and flashes....what do you think happens inside a building when it is on fire?

Originally posted by -PLB-
Nope not curious at all. You may not have heard this (it is a detail that is quickly overlooked) but those two towers had airplanes crashing into them. The resulting chaos disabled the sprinkler system of building 7. Guess what, those events have never ever happened before.

Using "Truther Logic" "I believe historical context is key here - we learn valuable lessons from history and you simply cannot ignore lessons learned from the past... " - zeeeon

So, that means that the:

Minnesota Vikings
Buffalo Bills
Cincinnati Bengals
Philadelphia Eagles
Tennessee Titans
San Diego Chargers
Atlanta Falcons
Carolina Panthers
Arizona Cardinals
Seattle Seahawks
Cleveland Browns
Houston Texans
Jacksonville Jaguars and the
Detroit Lions.....

.....will never win a Super Bowl!
Why? Because they never have!

Originally posted by Six Sigma

Originally posted by -PLB-
Nope not curious at all. You may not have heard this (it is a detail that is quickly overlooked) but those two towers had airplanes crashing into them. The resulting chaos disabled the sprinkler system of building 7. Guess what, those events have never ever happened before.

Using "Truther Logic" "I believe historical context is key here - we learn valuable lessons from history and you simply cannot ignore lessons learned from the past... " - zeeeon

So, that means that the:

Minnesota Vikings
Buffalo Bills
Cincinnati Bengals
Philadelphia Eagles
Tennessee Titans
San Diego Chargers
Atlanta Falcons
Carolina Panthers
Arizona Cardinals
Seattle Seahawks
Cleveland Browns
Houston Texans
Jacksonville Jaguars and the
Detroit Lions.....

.....will never win a Super Bowl!
Why? Because they never have!

In my opinion your analogy misses the extend of the fallacy. Truthers don't really argue that it is impossible, they argue that if it happens, it means it is highly likely a conspiracy is going on. I think a better analogy is this one (with cars):

Ten people have an accident hitting a certain object using various car models. None of them dies. Then 3 persons in a row, with yet other car models have an accident, hitting that same object. These three people die.

Truther logic would dictate that there is very likely a large conspiracy behind the death of the last 3 persons. How can those 3 persons die while the other 10 did not? In the process, things like speed and safety of the car are ignored. The fact that the last 3 people were driving ~100kph, while the others were going ~50 is ignored. The fact that the last 3 people did not wear seat belts and didn't have airbags is ignored. The fact that the last 3 people were driving car models with a small deformable zone is ignored etc.

So the fallacy isn't just a hasty generalization (it is one of the most common fallacies that is made using inductive reasoning). It is also an argument from ignorance (or just confirmation bias) as the key differences between the examples and event itself are ignored.

reply to post by Oannes

Flashes and popping noises were reported by NY firefighters in Jim Marrs little talked about book. This was reported for WTC 1 and 2. Red and grey nano-thermite chips were found in the "dust' of the world trade centers. That's why the dust was considered especially hazardous to one's lung tissue. Highly advanced cutter charges. They ate right through the steel members. Those buildings never could have fallen without internal help.

Popping noises

On the 56th floor, an architect believes the building was failing structurally.

Architect Bob Shelton had his foot in a cast; he'd broken it falling off a curb two weeks ago. He heard the explosion of the first plane hitting the north tower from his 56th-floor office in the south tower. As he made his way down the stairwell, his building came under attack as well. "You could hear the building cracking. It sounded like when you have a bunch of spaghetti, and you break it in half to boil it." Shelton knew that what he was hearing was bad. "It was structural failure," Shelton says. "Once a building like that is off center, that's it."Source

.

Water was pouring down the stairwell, and all the while the building was creaking and cracking, and it felt like it was coming apart

Erik O. Ronningen : I remember how calm and orderly the descent in the stairwells was… and how smoky… accompanied occasionally with the snapping sounds of tortured pipes and walls stressed beyond endurance

FDNY Lieutenant Robert Bohack: With that as soon as I said that the building [north tower] made a groan like steel twisting. I didn’t have to tell those guys twice. We just started making line for West Street or the western side, the entrance we came in.

FDNY Firefighter Frank Sweeney: I remember when we heard abandon the site, I said, wow, this would be really good to keep with us. So I started pushing this cart, and I got stuck in the doorway with it, when we started hearing this rumble. I can remember -- I specifically remember this like twisting sound of metal. We were probably about half a block away from the complex at this point.

You heard a big boom, it was quiet for about ten seconds. Then you could hear another one. Now I realize it was the floors starting to stack on top of each other as they were falling . It was spaced apart in the beginning, but then it got to just a tremendous roar and a

Jaede Barg: The lights in the staircase went out. There were cracks in the stairwell walls with exposed pipes breaking through the plaster. The building was forcefully swaying, enough to require significant balancing. I recall the incredible sound of twisting metal with each sway of the building

Numerous reports of creaking, twisting, snapping sounds. Booming noise as floors pancaked into one below

What we don't have here is loud sequenced explosion charasteristic of explosive demolition......

reply to post by -PLB-


Well, I think the real problem is that the truther approach begs the listner to believe that the planet Earth is covered from pole to pole with high rise buildings and skyscrapers and that at least 20 a week catch fire and none of them has ever collapsed in the thousands of years that this has been happening.

The matter of fact is that high rise buildings are pretty rare, they are all constructed and designed differently and have never been subjected exactly to what the buildings of the World Trade Center complex were subjected to on 9/11/2001. Unique input, unique results.

I think what is telling, is not a single truther has come into this thread and offered any type of realistic alternative theory as to how this building (or buildings) were set up for demolition, and the demolition was all but silent.

What's even MORE telling is the blatant ignorance of those that continue to spout the "Nano-Thermite" line after it's been proven it did NOT exist at the WTC.

Originally posted by jude11
Another thread trying to prove that the buildings came down in a natural fashion?

America was attacked from within. The proof is out there and actually in many threads on ATS.

America was attacked on 9/11 from within. What's worse is that America is still being attacked every day. It's being attacked by people flooding the airwaves with disinformation and it appears to be well organized and well funded. It's purpose appears designed to divide public opinion and produce apathy.

We have enough whistle blowers, technical experts and hard evidence to indict scores of people for 9/11 today. Right now. The only real problem is that the bad guys have control of the courts, police and the military. The *fact* that we can't even examine the background documents of the president of the US should tell you that we are not in Kansas anymore.

reply to post by jcarpenter


Who would you indict and on what "hard evidence" ?

reply to post by jcarpenter

America was attacked on 9/11 from within.

Yep. The hijackers were living in the US and hijacked US commercial aircraft, to that extent, yes we were attacked from "within".

What's worse is that America is still being attacked every day.

Somebody should tell those Americans then.

It's being attacked by people flooding the airwaves with disinformation....

Yep, truthers. Well maybe not the "airwaves" but the internet. And maybe not "flooding" more like trickling or dripping.

....and it appears to be well organized and well funded.

Well, there we have to disagree. Truthers are neither well organized and only certain truthers are "well funded" mainly by selling crap to the gullible on the internet.

It's purpose appears designed to divide public opinion and produce apathy.

And so far there is neither. Fail.

We have enough whistle blowers....

Huh?

technical experts....

Landscape architects, theologians, and computer programmers.

....and hard evidence to indict scores of people for 9/11 today. Right now.

And yet you are hard pressed to get more than 80% of the participants on a conspiracy website to agree that 9/11 is a conspiracy. Amazing.

The only real problem is that the bad guys have control of the courts, police and the military.

By "bad guys" I guess you mean everyone else in the world except you.

The *fact* that we can't even examine the background documents of the president of the US should tell you that we are not in Kansas anymore.

Wrong conspiracy site.

reply to post by jcarpenter

We have enough whistle blowers, technical experts and hard evidence to indict scores of people for 9/11 today. Right now. The only real problem is that the bad guys have control of the courts, police and the military. The *fact* that we can't even examine the background documents of the president of the US should tell you that we are not in Kansas anymore.

Name one whistle blower.
List one piece of 'hard' evidence that is 'court worthy'.

It's all speculation, inuendo and Youtube.

reply to post by Six Sigma


I can hear an explosion very clearly in this video.



Considering it was a covert operation I expect most of the charges were detonated slowly over the course of the day, by 1700 the building was ready to drop. In normal demolitions they let them all off hundreds of charges over a few seconds which is why they are so loud. Sound can be easily masked by noise and can be easily removed or hidden in an audio feed.

Originally posted by Insolubrious


I can hear an explosion very clearly in this video.



Considering it was a covert operation I expect most of the charges were detonated slowly over the course of the day, by 1700 the building was ready to drop. In normal demolitions they let them all off hundreds of charges over a few seconds which is why they are so loud. Sound can be easily masked by noise and can be easily removed or hidden in an audio feed.

So the "hundreds of charges" were either masked by noise and or removed/hidden in audio feed? And these hundreds of charges were set off gradually throughout the day? And by 5:00 it "was ready to drop"...but at 1720, the alleged boom you hear was the one that completed the job?

Wow..... can I get a Face Palm anyone?

I think hidden top secret fire resistant robots with flame torch arms took down building 7. Of course I don't have any evidence either but its a cool theory.

Originally posted by -PLB-
I think hidden top secret fire resistant robots with flame torch arms took down building 7. Of course I don't have any evidence either but its a cool theory.

ANOK may believe that. He claims there isn't any evidence that a collapsing, 110 story, burning skyscraper started the fires.

There is not evidence that the fire in WTC 7 was started by debris from the towers. If that had not happened they would have found another excuse to confuse you. Think about it, what debris would have still stayed on fore while being hurled into another building? Where is the evidence of these pieces of flaming debris?

So, PLB.... the Pyromaniac, fireproof, flame throwing, robot sounds like a feasible explanation as to how the fires started.

reply to post by Insolubrious

Considering it was a covert operation I expect most of the charges were detonated slowly over the course of the day, by 1700 the building was ready to drop.

Just how does det cord/wire or what ever survive fire for multiple hours?

That's the problem with truther arguments they always lead to other unconsidered problems.